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  1. #1
    High Overlord Cantwingrr's Avatar
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    Angry Leveling and the LFG kick system

    I was leveling today, and I feel like I'm a pretty reasonable guy. I was on my resto druid alt q'ing with my tank friend to get faster ques. About halfway through the dungeon, I realized that the priest that had come as dps was in discipline spec, not healing, and casting less than half the time we were in combat.

    I told the priest that I'd like to have everyone actually try to complete the dungeon, but I got no response the entire time. After 4 manning most of the instance, the tank made a particularly big pull, and died before I could finish casting a regrowth. I decided this would be a good point to try and kick the priest because he still refused to even come close to some sort of trying.

    Now, the priest was the leader of the group, and up to this point, I had been unable to initiate a kick for reasons that are unknown to me. All it said was, this player cannot be kicked for 10 minutes, 6, 2, etc. As we waited the last 30 seconds to be able to kick, I noticed the priest didn't have ANY weapon or offhand on at all. None. Period. So I replied, which I maybe shouldn't have, with a, "Do you seriously not have any weapon equiped at all? seriously?". Mind you, we were level 35 at this point in maraudon, so its basically impossible to assume they had no chance at a weapon, and it was obvious to me and everyone else that this person just wanted to get carried to max level.

    After waiting to be able to initiate a kick, and wasting more time than I would have liked, about 10 seconds before I could start the kick, I was removed from the instance. I was completely shocked. They kicked the only person that had gotten them that far into the instance in the first place.

    I'm tired of bad players having this much control over the fate of groups. All it does is make for a bad leveling experience. This is not good gameplay, and this is not fun for me or for anyone else involved, except for the guy getting carried through the instance, who everyone was unable to kick the entire time they were being bad and wasting every else's time. I may sound like I'm QQing here, but, that's because I am, and I feel completely justified in doing so. There are groups like this CONSTANTLY while trying to level, where one or two people ruin the entire experience for everyone else, and no one can do anything about it because of this messed up kick system that is useless and doesn't work.

    There honestly has to be something done about this, because it takes away an entire option for me to level through content, which is completely ridiculous. Stop letting people slide through unscathed while doing absolutely nothing to contribute to the group, or blatantly trying to hinder its progress.

  2. #2
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    First of all, it was a level 35 dungeon. Who really cares if one person wasn't pulling their weight? Second, you were kicked because you raised a concern. Usually in any kind of dungeon, the people who voice a concern, even a valid one (as in your case) is removed because people don't want to deal with somebody making a big deal. Let me play devil's advocate: In this level 35 dungeon what did it matter if this priest wasn't even trying? Did it impact you from completing the dungeon? You said yourself that your tank friend died because he pulled too much, not because there was some DPS check (which there aren't in any level 35 dungeon) that wasn't met because you were basically 4-manning it. So what, other than to call out a bad player, was your reasoning for trying to kick the priest? Would you have been able to complete the dungeon without him?

    It happens, there's no cure for it because of how people are. Chalk it up to the typical bad LFG experience and move on.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    First of all, it was a level 35 dungeon. Who really cares if one person wasn't pulling their weight?
    *cough* The way people talk it seems like it matters more in a low level dungeon than it does in a 90 dungeon/raid today.

    Anyway OP, it sort of was within their right to kick you since they were the majority of the group. It just so happens that they apparently made a poor decision.

    The cold hard truth is that you shouldn't really expect to meet good and friendly people, or even reasonable people. I think you should find friends to queue with, or just do as most people do and quest (idk if they quest at 35 though...). Sorry that you had this experience but it's not really a feature problem, its a people problem.

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Snaige's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Who really cares if one person wasn't pulling their weight?
    This is the worst possible response ever All the slackers/afkers in lfr use it constantly. If there is no dealing with the slacking problem when leveling, if it is an acceptable thing on the forums, it simply means player mentality is not a good one. Sadly, not much can be done with it. To the OP I would suggest not to stop complaining when someone slacks/afks. Even if they kick you. If everyone starts finding slacking acceptable, eventually we will end up with a group of 5 people who afk immediately as they zone in. Not all people are like that, hopefully your next group is better.

    As for the kick timers, I find them very confusing. Logged on today, did a lfr run and there was a particularly bad agility geared monk healer. When I clicked him to vote kick, it said can't be kicked for two hours... Wish I knew how the system works.

  5. #5
    Therefore, they kicked the healer who queued with the tank. Guess who actually lost with that?

  6. #6
    High Overlord Cantwingrr's Avatar
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    I get where some of these responses are coming from, but I'm worried about the entire principle of the issue. If I don't find fault and voice a complaint when someone shows up in a dungeon and does nothing, all it does is make it seem like that's normal acceptable behavior. No matter how much it actually happens I find its my job to try and get people to act fairly and not just expect to get carried. How is anyone suppose to tell people they're doing something wrong, if there are never any repercussions for bad or rude play?

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snaige View Post
    This is the worst possible response ever All the slackers/afkers in lfr use it constantly. If there is no dealing with the slacking problem when leveling, if it is an acceptable thing on the forums, it simply means player mentality is not a good one. Sadly, not much can be done with it. To the OP I would suggest not to stop complaining when someone slacks/afks. Even if they kick you. If everyone starts finding slacking acceptable, eventually we will end up with a group of 5 people who afk immediately as they zone in. Not all people are like that, hopefully your next group is better.

    As for the kick timers, I find them very confusing. Logged on today, did a lfr run and there was a particularly bad agility geared monk healer. When I clicked him to vote kick, it said can't be kicked for two hours... Wish I knew how the system works.

    Completely agree. That sort of attitude is why decent players get kicked for pointing out the obvious - the dude was supposed to dps, yet he was in the wrong spec and had no weapons equipped. If players like that aren't told, that doing shit like that isn't okay and that it isn't the way to go in the long run, then how will he learn? Nobleshield is ready to just let it slide but guess what? That's the type of retard you'll end up meeting in LFR, where he's supposed to heal your ass, but in stead he stands there doing nothing in his shit gear with wrong or no gems and NO WEAPON - cause who needs that anyways right?

    If the experienced players don't teach people like this noob, that you can't queue as a role and then not fulfill it and that you can't play without a weapon, then how will he ever learn? Stop protecting bad players seriously. The OP asked him, why he didn't have a weapon and the baddie didn't even bother to reply. Yeah guess what, that's when you kick his sorry ass. Cause if he won't listen, then maybe he'll learn after being kicked. Oh but no, those players always seem to have a 3 hour kick protection, cause you know, people don't want to group with them but Blizz forces you to do so.

    The vote to kick system is utter BS and only serves to protect ignorant/annoying/afk'ing or retarded players.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    Typical goonerey. It's consistently dismissed as "unimportant" by so many people, when it's at the core of so many player and community issues with the game. Anonymity and lack of consequence open the doors for Goonerific behavior, and these same goons use the lack of difficulty to justify it. Or they just remove the person who spoke out against them. "The group was fine, who cares?"

    It's just not right, but that doesn't stop anyone because lolwhocares gameseasynub. I'd love to tell them to put in their 20%, don't be a son of a mother duck, but players have 0 authority and cannot reason with these poopyheads. Blizzard can't LET us handle this kind of shit though, because then these same goons will just grief people. The community is too fuckedous to act reasonably and Blizzard doesn't want to spend time or money babysitting everyone. It's a bad cycle! I doubt that we will ever have the proper means to deal with these kind of players properly. It's become a staple of every LF anything, you get shitheads who don't give a flying fart about anything, seemingly including their own performance.

    I suggest carrying, like you were doing. No amout of typing will fix these issues, so just make up for the lost percent and get on with your life, because wallowing in LFG despair gets nobody anywhere when the solutions will NEVER be enacted. I've learned this the hard way, like you may have to do before you accept that it's part of the game now.

    I know that feel, dudeman. It's best to just power through and move on. In the end, in a week, a month from now, it won't matter. Don't let these green string beans annoy you with their 2 digit IQ shenanigans.
    Last edited by MonsieuRoberts; 2013-10-28 at 08:11 AM.
    "In short, people are idiots who don't really understand anything."

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Snaige View Post
    When I clicked him to vote kick, it said can't be kicked for two hours... Wish I knew how the system works.
    Your timer goes up if you vote kick often, this is a protection system agains crazy rage kids
    Looks like you kicked a lot of player in the last few weeks/moths
    In this case ask someone else in the group, they should have different timer
    In 5 man groups after the first kick everyone gets extra time, so it takes like ages to kick a second player from the same group.

    In raid groups where you get personal loot (LFR/Flex) your drop chances are changing too. There was only a shady blue post about this without any specific numbers (ofc they don't want us to know how does it work), but basicly he said if you are a naughty boy your drop chance is different.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    It's just sad that people complain about the decline in skill when doing LFR for instance. Yet the best solution to better the player base has always (imo) been teaching new players in-game. Tell them that you actually need a weapon, tell them that you can't just queue as dps, if you have no dps spec. The OP could have worded himself a bit more polite and I suspect it was the way he worded it, that got him kicked.

    And while he could have been more polite, he was still not the one the group should have kicked. And that's the thing, the decent players don't have a kick protection, cause they rarely if ever get kicked. So while the players who often get kicked and often deserves to be kicked have a 3+ hour kick protection, players who carry their own weight but dare to point out that someone has been afk the entire run, can be kicked instantly.

    I mean, what kind of logic is this? It just rewards bad players and basically signals that good players should just keep their mouth shut. No wonder we have so many baddies in LFR today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    Your timer goes up if you vote kick often, this is a protection system agains crazy rage kids
    Looks like you kicked a lot of player in the last few weeks/moths
    In this case ask someone else in the group, they should have different timer
    In 5 man groups after the first kick everyone gets extra time, so it takes like ages to kick a second player from the same group.

    In raid groups where you get personal loot (LFR/Flex) your drop chances are changing too. There was only a shady blue post about this without any specific numbers (ofc they don't want us to know how does it work), but basicly he said if you are a naughty boy your drop chance is different.
    That's one reason why you can't kick. Another reason is that the player you want to kick, has been kicked a lot before, thus giving them a protection for kicks.

  11. #11
    First, this is LFD. If you get (next to yourself, and assuming you are a good player) 2 more good players, consider yourself lucky. With 3 good players and two having no idea, you can get through an instance very fast. Dont try to go for higher goals, it will just get you frustrated.

    Second, as long as you manage the instance, dont worry about it. If someone really annoys you - put on ignore, you wont see each other again in LFD. Great mechanism. Managing 10 more minutes annoyed is much better than getting into the politics of kicking.

    Third, if you feel an urge to educate someone, do it nicely so that the implied criticism is not taken too strong and the target does not go into defensive stance. Advice only works if the target is open to it.

    Then... if someone really causes you to make this instance longer, botches stuff up, is not a neutral third wheel but works against the group etc. - that is the time to kick. Now if you want to kick, do so without discussion (much). The moment you announce your intent you can get this person trying to kick you instead - smart move as it allows them to kick and you not to vote, and people often click yes on kicks unless they are thinking smart. Second, discussion will cause you at this point an extra headache; be fast about it, keep your own fun high.
    When I kick I first put them on ignore (in chat click on name, or /w them with a "," or something); then I kick. If the kick fails I tell them its either me leaving or them kicking this person. And then leave if needed.

    In your case I would have ignored, but not not kicked; learning when tanks take too much and how to survive it is part of good lessons. It happens, corpserun and go on. The disc priest was not helping but likely not working against either. I would not have complained but (if I felt the energy) have helped and else a straight try-to-kick without saying anything except maybe warning my buddy tank in a /w. Third, if I were the tank I would have told them this was not smart as it also removes him from the group and that will up there queue time likely. And then have left, allowing you two to carry on, maybe after a penalty time. Have left after putting them all on ignore, that is.

    After a while empty your whole ignore list, you dont know why they were in anyway anymore .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishpsycho View Post
    Another reason is that the player you want to kick, has been kicked a lot before, thus giving them a protection for kicks.
    Seriously? That is just silly. THere is not always a reason for kicks, but overall there will be something.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    Your timer goes up if you vote kick often, this is a protection system agains crazy rage kids
    Looks like you kicked a lot of player in the last few weeks/moths
    I think that's how it USED to work, but it absolutely doesn't work that way anymore. People just have timers now. Don't know why or where from. I, as well as others in LFR, can rarely kick anyone when they're being an asshat. Always says 2 hours. Even after not running LFR for ~10 days and there's some toxic player that's being kicked, 2 hours 2 hours 2 hours. He eventually foes away, I can only assume that people who have NEVER kicked anyone vote and out he goes.

    Pretty sure Blizz responded to something about kick protection recently.

    In any case, it's broken.
    "In short, people are idiots who don't really understand anything."

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  13. #13
    Would be interesting to know how the game decides how long "LFG kick protection" a character has, as sometimes there have been players who have a protection for 2 hours and sometimes it's just minutes.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord
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    I really don't understand the reasoning of some of the replies here defending the slacker in this group as described by the OP. What if everyone did what that Priest did? The group would stand still or wipe pulling the first mob. Of course it matters. And even in this case with only 1 guy not pulling his weight, it still means the dungeon and leveling will take longer and require more efforts for those who actually do pull their weight, as well as others. This is a huge problem, and I must agree that the vote kick system is beyond my comprehension. I cannot understand when I am allowed and not allowed, and why, to kick someone. It baffles me.

    What Blizzard should do is implement some kind of Player Rating system, that means every time you leave a dungeon you can rate your peers, which should then be utilized when joining groups through finder tools. Like if a player has a really poor Player Rating he must be accepted by the others or he will be passed, or something like that. I think a lot of players who aren't really retarded idiots but just lazy at times and lacking the proper empathy to understand the annoyance they cause in their actions would then shape up, leaving only a really small amount of players behind who truly are a lost cause.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarc View Post
    I really don't understand the reasoning [...] What if everyone did what that Priest did? [...] This is a huge problem[...]
    What Blizzard should do is implement some kind of Player Rating system
    1. (assuming you also mean my reply) Because doing otherwise makes you stop using the LFD system, or makes you very grumpy.
    2. Then put all on ignore and leave the group. But this is (imo) very rare. LFD is mostly tuned down a lot, even bad groups tend to get through easy.
    3. No, its not a huge problem. Generally LFD instances go pretty fast; they are clearly tuned to be very doable with 2-3 people playing badly. Most LFD instances are doable in 20-30 minutes with a reasonable group and that is fine with me.
    4. You are dealing with reality, not with your own 'how it should be done'. It is much too easy to consider scenarios where your idea will work badly. Dont think of the way you would use it, think of ways that others can abuse it...

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    1. (assuming you also mean my reply) Because doing otherwise makes you stop using the LFD system, or makes you very grumpy.
    2. Then put all on ignore and leave the group. But this is (imo) very rare. LFD is mostly tuned down a lot, even bad groups tend to get through easy.
    3. No, its not a huge problem. Generally LFD instances go pretty fast; they are clearly tuned to be very doable with 2-3 people playing badly. Most LFD instances are doable in 20-30 minutes with a reasonable group and that is fine with me.
    4. You are dealing with reality, not with your own 'how it should be done'. It is much too easy to consider scenarios where your idea will work badly. Dont think of the way you would use it, think of ways that others can abuse it...
    Yeah we get it. You'd rather suck it up and be done with it, while ignoring the issues that such players create in the long run. There will always be thieves, so lets just ignore them, cause after all, how often do they steal from you personally right? That's the mentality I just don't get.

    Also, unless players have been kicked a lot (according to Blizz standards), there's just no way an entire LFR group can't kick one person. Since I rarely step foot inside LFR and only once per week maybe run a dungeon to cap VP, I haven't kicked anyone for ages. I try and see if others kick, so that I don't use my own vote. If my vote is needed, I will use it. But last reset I had a dungeon with a warrior doing 15k dps. We're talking lvl 90 people here and therefore I asked him, if he was semi afk. He didn't reply at first, then someone else pointed out that 15k on a boss as lvl 90 is way too low. Then he went emo and said "YEAH IM BAD SO WHAT" in all caps lol. Anyways, I tried to initiate a kick, but got the message "Cannot be kicked for another 2 hours" and the 3 others who also wanted the dude out, all got the same message.

    Now do you honestly think, we were the first people to comment on his 15k dps? The first people who wanted to boot him? I doubt so and I suspect that he's been kicked from several groups with that dps and then the attitude on top of it.

    In the end it's not about whether or not you can complete the dungeon or not. It's about some players leeching off of 4 others, delaying the run etc. It's not cool when it happens irl and it's not cool in game.

    Also, if it's not a huge problem, why is there any restrictions on the vote to kick system at all? I mean, sure some people will grief and or kick due to a specific item they want. But they still need 2 others to vote with them and who gives a shit about dungeon gear anyways. So if baddies aren't an issue, they aren't being kicked no?

    I just don't get that mentality, that you put the blame on the people who carry their weight and let the bads leech.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishpsycho View Post
    That's one reason why you can't kick. Another reason is that the player you want to kick, has been kicked a lot before, thus giving them a protection for kicks.
    This just seems so ass backwards to me. Logic would dictate that if you're being kicked often, you should be MORE susceptible to kicks, not less. If you're being enough of a dick or being REALLY bad so often that people are kicking you, you deserve nothing. Hell, I'd issue queue bans for players who are kicked more than once a week.

    Within 1 week:
    1st kick: Deserter debuff
    2nd kick: 1-week ban from LFD/LFR

    I've queued a LOT since LFD was introduced years ago, and I think I've been kicked a total of 3 times in that span, all of them for telling stupid/terrible people to stop being stupid/terrible.

  18. #18
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Yes, I occasionally find the system annoying - but I have no better, more sensible or practical solution.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonora View Post
    1. (assuming you also mean my reply) Because doing otherwise makes you stop using the LFD system, or makes you very grumpy.
    2. Then put all on ignore and leave the group. But this is (imo) very rare. LFD is mostly tuned down a lot, even bad groups tend to get through easy.
    3. No, its not a huge problem. Generally LFD instances go pretty fast; they are clearly tuned to be very doable with 2-3 people playing badly. Most LFD instances are doable in 20-30 minutes with a reasonable group and that is fine with me.
    4. You are dealing with reality, not with your own 'how it should be done'. It is much too easy to consider scenarios where your idea will work badly. Dont think of the way you would use it, think of ways that others can abuse it...
    Actually I haven't read you reply. I was referring to the first two replies saying it was no big deal and that you should just accept it, basically. Which is such a wrong way to deal with a problem.

  20. #20
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post

    Within 1 week:
    1st kick: Deserter debuff
    2nd kick: 1-week ban from LFD/LFR

    .
    This is what I mean. People just jump at extreme measures. I notice that people often just knee jerk kick "kick" in LFR without reading the reason. I am being sceptical ALTHOUGH I have never been kicked before and in one year of LFR on 2 chars only once have had a whisper where somebody complained about my healing (yes, sue me, first time in a raid on my priest) and asked to kick me in chat, yet that kick never passed.

    Seing that I ended up 3rd in healing, there probably was a reason why I didn't get kicked and in the end I was glad that the kick didn't pass because it wouldn't even have given me a reason why. Could have been a guy who just liked to stand in shit, blame healers and then rally his buddies.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

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