Saudi female student dies after male crew denied access

[Deleted]

Islam is the only religion I know of at the top of my head which allows its adherents to lie to those outside the faith.

Not sure where you got that from, ain't true
Unless you want to harm me if I'm a muslim I can say that I'm not or if you're an enemy and I want to deceive you.
Thats it.

And if a woman doesn't WANT to believe in this? Then what happens to the woman? Murder? Exile? one then the other?
In this day and age, getting born a woman in the Middle East is like typing /roll and rolling a 1.

[Edit]
Well if you don't want to believe it's your choice.
[/Edit]
Also you seem to have a bad idea about women in the middle east based on what you saw from the media.

How does your so called Prophet, a man who had sex with a 9 yr old girl, get to comment on modern women's rights? Isn't that a bit ironic how some sort of rapist from the past can time-travel to rape your present and future? Shouldn't it be a cause of great concern and insult for muslim women?

Women are considered adults from the age of 9, while men from the age of 15 or if he gets hair here and there.
Also marrying a 9years old wasn't that big of a deal until this age, it was common back then.

[Mongoose19]

I know of middle eastern immigrants in the United States who follow the teachings of Islam (in fact Michigan has a pretty large population of Islam) and its in NO WAY comparative to Islamic teachings in the Middle East. The owner of a Deli here where I live is not only from the Middle East, but she's also Muslim, AND wears no religious clothing. Her husband wears the turban (pardon if that isn't the right word) but she dresses in street clothes.

Yes obviously they go only by Koran or maybe part of it but we do not have problem with mild muslims. We have problem with crazy sunni muslims which still are majority of the Islam world. They are the ones who go by those sick rules mentioned in the topic.

[Deleted]

If you believe that, you admit to the Qur'an being an incomplete scripture and, thus, a failure as a guide to mankind. The belief that Hadith are necessary for muslim faith is logically inconsistent with the teachings of the Qur'an, plain and simple.

People unable to explain things =/= it being a failure.

[Vokal]

We don't know how old Aisha was.

Aisha was either 8 or 9 years old at the time when "prophet" Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. This is taught in schools, both private and public, in these countries as part of an obligatory subject called Islamic studies. As a result of this union, Aisha's father was able to ascend to becoming the first Muslim Caliph after the death of Muhammad.

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Women are considered adults from the age of 9.

I am sure your "Prophet" would certainly think so since it enables him to bed what he's attracted to, a 9 yr old girl. I certainly don't agree with him, nor should anyone.

[zorkuus]

Also marrying a 9years old wasn't that big of a deal until this age, it was common back then.

So that makes it okay to do today?

[Vokal]

So that makes it okay to do today?

In their eyes everything their so called "prophet" did is okay. Islamic studies teachers go as far as to claim that he is the closest to the term "perfect" as any human being can be.

[Shahad]

People unable to explain things =/= it being a failure.

It does when the thing in question proclaim to be the perfect word of God. If the Qur'an alone does not do it's job of acting as a guide to mankind (as the Qur'an says it is), then is is a failure. Those who follow the Hadiths are doing the same thing they reproach the Christians of doing with the Bible, taking stories that were passed down by word of mouth as the word of God and are, thus, hypocrites.

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Aisha was either 8 or 9 years old at the time when "prophet" Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. This is taught in schools, both private and public, in these countries as part of an obligatory subject called Islamic studies. As a result of this union, Aisha's father was able to ascend to becoming the first Muslim Caliph after the death of Muhammad.

Yes, they teach that. They believe it too. Doesn't mean it's true. In fact, other sources mention her being in the early 20s at the time of the marriage. As I said, we don't know her real age, regardless what the fuckers in Saudi Arabia think.

[Vokal]

People unable to explain things =/= it being a failure.

If the "word of God" and "perfect guide for humanity for all times" is imperfect than its a failure. Its not a failure to understand it, it simply is a failure in it's function. Islam is a part of the past, where it should remain. If people in these countries are going to develop and grow into a civilized nation they will have to discard Islam as one would a worn-out pair of shoes. Which is exactly what this faith system is.

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Yes, they teach that. They believe it too. Doesn't mean it's true. In fact, other sources mention her being in the early 20s at the time of the marriage. As I said, we don't know her real age, regardless what the fuckers in Saudi Arabia think.

Marriage and sex with girls of that age was not uncommon or looked down upon at that time and place. What sources tell you that she was in her 20s? Out of curiosity, did those begin to surface at the time when critique was directed at Aisha's age at the time of marriage?

[Deleted]

I am sure your "Prophet" would certainly think so since it enables him to bed what he's attracted to, a 9 yr old girl. I certainly don't agree with him, nor should anyone.

After discussing it with my family, it says that, us "The Shi'a"; it is not proven that our prophet married Aisha when she was 9.
Leaving that aside, women are considered adults from 9 years old is because they are able to produce a child at that age, of course that doesn't apply to all women but the ones who got their period.

It does when the thing in question proclaim to be the perfect word of God. If the Qur'an alone does not do it's job of acting as a guide to mankind (as the Qur'an says it is), then is is a failure. Those who follow the Hadiths are doing the same thing they reproach the Christians of doing with the Bible, taking stories that were passed down by word of mouth as the word of God and are, thus, hypocrites.

The explanations are there, so the generations yet to come have something explaining everything incase they don't understand it.

Not to mention that a group of people may interpret some text different than another group which may lead to confusion.

[Vokal]

Leaving that aside, women are considered adults from 9 years old is because they are able to produce a child at that age, of course that doesn't apply to all women but the ones who got their period.

The age at which you can give legal consent for sexual activity is not determined by your ability to perform the act in a manner that can yield a child. It is based on mental maturity and sound state of mind. No child psychologist will tell you that a child that age is properly capable of making such a decision.

[Adam Jensen]

Women aren't adults at nine, no matter what the ancient texts say. I'm disturbed that any one would consider a 9 yo as an adult

[Teph]

Just sad... .
I always thought its mainly the men that are batshit crazy, but it seems there are enough women too.
(Yes, i know not everyone. But that such a mindset can evolve is bad enough)

The last part of the article is even more "awesome".

"In 2002, 15 schoolgirls died in a fire in Makkah after, according to reports at the time, religious police stopped them from leaving a burning building because they were not properly dressed."

When you think that that part of the world cant get more fcked up, something new shows that you were wrong.

[Deleted]

The age at which you can give legal consent for sexual activity is not determined by your ability to perform the act in a manner that can yield a child. It is based on mental maturity and sound state of mind. No child psychologist will tell you that a child that age is properly capable of making such a decision.

This is why you need the agreement of the parents/guardians of that person you're going to marry or consult someone with greater knowledge to they can judge if she is capable or not.

Let's agree to disagree about this subject since, it won't take us anywhere in my opinion.

[Shahad]

Marriage and sex with girls of that age was not uncommon or looked down upon at that time and place. What sources tell you that she was in her 20s? Out of curiosity, did those begin to surface at the time when critique was directed at Aisha's age at the time of marriage?

The notion of Aisha being 7-8-9-10 (her age has always been inconsistent) was challenged by quite a few people across history. I recall Muhammad Ali (the write, not the boxer) being one. There's also a few historians from the time that reported Aisha being much older than 9, but I read those a long time ago. But even then her age is inconsistent across all sources. Some suspect traditional sources mention such a young age because it was amplified and exaggerated like word of mouth usually does and because her virginity at the time of marriage was an important issue or some such.

Is it possible? Yes. But it's equally as possible for Aisha to have been aged anywhere from 12 to 20 when she got married so I don't think it's all that relevant if you're going to criticize Islam.

[lawow74]

And this is why we keep church and state separate, people. To stop religious loonies from interfering with the functioning of day-to-day society. They want to die because they're not properly dressed and the only attending physician is male? Go right ahead. But keep the rest of us who have some common sense well away from your idiocy.

[Shahad]

The explanations are there, so the generations yet to come have something explaining everything incase they don't understand it.

Not to mention that a group of people may interpret some text different than another group which may lead to confusion.

Again, if the Qur'an on it's own isn't able to stand the test of time, as it claims, then it's not the word of God. And that's what you admit by following Hadiths. This is elementary logic, you can't argue it.

[Drithien]

If the "word of God" and "perfect guide for humanity for all times" is imperfect than its a failure. Its not a failure to understand it, it simply is a failure in it's function.

That is logically wrong. There is no way to prove that not understanding something is the failure of the concept and not of the people studying it. If that was the case then no student would ever fail his exams; actually scoring anything else but perfect would be the books'/notes'/lectures' fault. That doesn't make sense.

This is double standards, and it's not helping your case. As a matter of fact talking about something you have little knowledge of, trying to twist words, create artificial shock, and so on, as if this is some sort of show, and looking quite prejudiced against the subject matter, doesn't make the entire conversation seem much of an intellectual discussion, just a person trying to have a go passive-aggressively while being under the delusion he/she is somehow superior intellectually than the people that have an opposite opinion, thus being here to teach a few lessons, through condescension.

Witnessing the results of fanaticism is saddening. Both religious fanaticism and that of some people that behave incredibly immaturely all the while pretending to be the proponents of spiritual and intellectual liberation.

[Vokal]

After discussing it with my family, it says that, us "The Shi'a"; it is not proven that our prophet married Aisha when she was 9.

Well if we are going to comment on the word proof, there isn't any that your "prophet" had visions, was visited by actual angels or spoken to by God. What does you family have to say about that?

As far as Aisha is concerned the traditional view adopted by most Muslim teachings is that she was married to Muhammad when she was either 6 or 7 years of age, and 9 when he consummated the marriage and had sexual intercourse with her.

Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari argues that she was 10 years of age at the time of sexual intercourse.

Muhammad Ali, a pakistani Islamic scholar, however argued that she was 19. This was a bit more recent however since he died 1951, so its possible his point of view was a result of critique leveled at Aisha's age at the time of marriage.

Needless to say most of this is quite unpleasant if we are to look at the information outside of Muhammad Ali's point of view, any man who marries a girl of 6-7 and has sex with her at 9-10 shouldn't be dictating what modern women do and how they do it.

[Deleted]

And this is why we keep church and state separate, people.

There's at least one certain country who boasts keeping the church and state separate, while at the very same time infusing their state and politics and every single decision they make, with religion.

How about not keeping church and state separate, but instead, keep religion and state separate?

[Deleted]

And this is why we keep church and state separate, people. To stop religious loonies from interfering with the functioning of day-to-day society. They want to die because they're not properly dressed and the only attending physician is male? Go right ahead. But keep the rest of us who have some common sense well away from your idiocy.

Again this didn't happen because of religion (Well it kinda did) but the male crew should've been given access cause this is an exception.
People are blindly following religion.

It's just like how pork is banned, but if you're going to die from hunger and there is pork in front of you, it is alright if you eat it.