Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Stacie]

I remember a time without flying, long grinds, huge issues with lagg spikes (everyone had bad PC's) and waiting for hours to fill a group to find some were not attuned or just DC. Fights that really were just tank n spank also...

Sounds like we are going back to "the good old days"... Oh what fun... /End Sarcasm. It was frigging horrid.

Ditching flying is a horrid idea. It's one of the coolest things in game being able to level alts quick by dropping down on quests and stuff. I get it for PVP realms but as a solid PVE player or even a RP flying is amazing such a time saver and a fun way to explore.

Going to hate benching my rare mounts i spent ages grinding.. I'm sure many other mount collectors wont be that happy also.

[Dormie]

TBH this is and has always been a suck it up issue. Bliz made their decision, most of the playerbase is supportive. The only reason people have against it is because they don't want to be inconvenienced. Well, sorry. Suck it up buttercup. Not to sound insensitive but it just is what it is. Flying over everything destroys the point of the world and its landscape. And games are about playing the game not being efficient. And I really doubt getting around will be much harder using flightpoints.

[Barkloud]

Ugh no.

This thread needs to stay open and individual posters need to be removed. Similar to Superman and his ban, if you can't post decent enough, mods can then go to work. Locking the thread is what someone wants to happen when it's not going their way so they incite others with bad posts and troll. Thats why you see posts like that.

There needs to be a singular place for this debate/discussion. This would be that place.

The escalation of this argument is nobody's doing but Blizzards.

Real World's comments are text book community/governmental affairs. Clearly, he is a fan of the game. To that end I appreciate his comments. His suggestion that this post be closed confirms my suspicion that his job is to calm these forums, as least in regards to how it relates to flight.

If Blizzard would simply provide their plan for flying and traveling to their community base, some of the rage would subside.

Blizzards poor external communications is to blame for posts like this. In absence of facts, people will make up their own truths. Real World more than any other person on this thread knows this to be true.

[Exystredofar]

I remember a time without flying, long grinds, huge issues with lagg spikes (everyone had bad PC's) and waiting for hours to fill a group to find some were not attuned or just DC. Fights that really were just tank n spank also...

Sounds like we are going back to "the good old days"... Oh what fun... /End Sarcasm. It was frigging horrid.

Ditching flying is a horrid idea. It's one of the coolest things in game being able to level alts quick by dropping down on quests and stuff. I get it for PVP realms but as a solid PVE player or even a RP flying is amazing such a time saver and a fun way to explore.

Going to hate benching my rare mounts i spent ages grinding.. I'm sure many other mount collectors wont be that happy also.

You won't have to bench them, supposedly every mount will be able to be ridden in grounded areas now. I still don't like the idea of no flying though, it feels like they're taking away freedom from the game.

[CheeseSandwich]

TBH this is and has always been a suck it up issue. Bliz made their decision, most of the playerbase is supportive. The only reason people have against it is because they don't want to be inconvenienced. Well, sorry. Suck it up buttercup.

Blizz hasn't made their decision. They are 'wait'ing and 'see'ing how the playerbase reacts on whether to reinstate it in 6.1 or not.

Blizz has also stated that this issue divides the playerbase 50/50. I'm not sure where they got this from, as it was never an issue for 7 years, and I'm twice as confused as to where you get the notion that most people support it, seeing as Blizz themselves doesn't know how it will play out.

There have been multiple reasons against the removal of flight that didn't mention convenience, but why is being more inconvenienced a good thing?

Why is Blizz still selling the expac with a flying mount?

[quras]

Well then, in the interest of keeping this place of discussion open, maybe we can all agree to /report and move on rather than perpetuate emotional bickering.

Sound good.

This thread is only as effective as its content. From the 553 pages thus far, I might find 30 pages worth of logical, and reasonable statements not rooted in sentiment or emotion. Showing your passion is one thing, but when there is something bigger on the line, it is time to reel it in and start steeping things in fact. Both sides should take this to heart, and establish how much they want their side to be taken seriously if, and when, Blizzard ever reads this thread. If they pull a fact sheet on it, see the same 15 people, and start examining those comments, the profound and constructive statements made by others will be over looked and tossed aside with the dramatics in which they were enveloped.

If blizzard wants to dismiss emotional feedback as frivolous then screw them. If at this point there not capable of scanning comments and reading through some of the white noise then we got no use for them.

Every single comment can be useful emotional or not. Sure your going toget some of the outliers that are filled with hyperbole and CAPS and their easy enough to weed out, dismissing a comment because it has some emotion based sentiment is on the line of stupidity as those are usually worth reading. Emotionless based, logic only serves its purpose up to a point but if you think thats the only way to view a debate, your as one sided as they are.

Lets not be like that either.

But back on topic...

We know flying is not the culprit of wow. We know if it was past expansions would have suffered and it would have been removed long before now or at least changed.

We know blizzard has failed to deliver on content and they need something to blame for it other than themselves. Flying took the heat. Blizzard and gamers can say it is because we can skip mobs, or it hinders immersion or it hurts there design but that is pretty much PR fluff because we know from actually playing the game that when we have had a better creative team, we got great content and story with flying in game.

Now, blizzard might just be doing it to slow content consumption and that seems to be what many thing since that very statement was removed from a blue post and if that is really what it boils down to. Not a single gamer should support it after all the time and additional cash many have spent getting flying mounts as well as the dick business move blizzard is pulling still selling flying mounts in the cash shop.

[Nayaga]

And having flight in game breaks my immersion in the game.


People are so simple minded on these forums. Because I know the response coming is 'then don't use flying mounts'. Quit being ignorant to the fact that it doesn't work that way. Purposely handicapping yourself is not fun or immersive.

Before you were talking about how immersive no flight was while leveling and questing. Do you want no flight at level cap with questing completed and why?

[CheeseSandwich]

Flying over everything destroys the point of the world and its landscape. And games are about playing the game not being efficient. And I really doubt getting around will be much harder using flightpoints.

Once we have seen that world and it's landscape through leveling, we will be flying over it anyway via flightpaths, those magical flying mounts that can fly on Draenor.

While I'm on my flying mount, I am playing the game. I am using it to get to wherever I feel is relevant to play the game how I want.

I'm not getting my flying mount, mounting up, flying to the top of the sky box and sitting there for 4 hours.

If efficiency in reference to playing the game was the issue here, then there should be no mage portals or city hub portals, no queuing for dungeons, scenarios, LFR, arenas or battlegrounds with there instant ports, no trinkets, items or rewards that teleport people places etc etc.

I remember sitting on a boat in EQ for 17 minutes to cross continents, and I can assure you that was not involving game play.

[Drytoast]

I absolutely could. But the point of this exercise was to de-escalate the conversation, and start a constructive dialog among all involved. At this point, from where I am sitting, everyone's post is looking like a certain superhero who has since left the thread. When the loudest, and craziest guy drops the subject and walks away, it makes me take a long, hard look at the conversation to see what prompted it.

Well like i've said many times...what prompts my pissy attitude is when I go bother to do research on the game by watching videos or reading the alpha boards, or show stats, or blue contradicting quotes...you know, I actually bring hard factual evidence as to why not being able to fly sucks.

It get's ignored and the counter to anything I say, (if you want to bother reading them all) always start with I BELIEVE, or I FEEL, or I THINK...there's no facts, there's no links or quotes from playtesters playing WoD right now.

Oh and if, by some chance I want to keep pressing the issue, I get responses like "it's just flying, for god's sakes it's not a big deal..." when to me, it IS a big deal because this entire game is about getting from point A to point B. Removing something like this effects EVERYTHING. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement. Nor do I think it's removal should be treated as a "what ev's".

I again go back to the guild perk "have guild will travel" I bring this up because it draws allot of parallel to the same arguments and same promises. Here we had a great quality of life feature that actually helped people get out to various places in the world to help people. I used it many times to help guild mates with various tasks, I used it to form CR raiding parties on major capital cities...it was great.

It was removed with the promise that it would help drive people out into the world. And words like "immersion" were wrong tossed around.

And in the end, we gained nothing and just lost something that made this game a little easier to play...to get around in. To help people get from the not fun to the fun. And because I fought that good fight, in the end...I kept track of all the time I sat and waited for a group to form for raiding, knowing that with that perk we could have them all here instantly. I calculated it to be roughly 500 hours over the course of an 8 month raiding period of waiting added to my gameplay. Most people wouldn't bother breaking things down like that, but I do. I wanna know exactly what was given to me by it's removal.

So now we have mounts, which again, will most likely add nothing to the game play, except needles "not fun" waiting time. And asking these defenders of this decision to explain to me what will be added, and to back it up with evidence is like pulling teeth. They CAN'T give you any rock solid reason because there is none. Instead you get, "I BELIEVE" or "I HOPE" or "I FEEL" responses...which obviously are all opinions and subjective and hardly anything factual.

I'm a firm believe of choice. This is a sandbox, let me play in it how I choose. I absolutely detest being forced into a play style just so I can satisfy someone else.

[Real World]

Much of this could be settled by direct communication by Blizzard, don't you think?

Your comments saying multiple posters are simply expressing emotion devalues their comments toward the argument regarding flying/no flying in WoD.

My comments about multiple posters expressing emotions is a fact. I would welcome anyone to comb back over these 550+ pages and find 5 constructive discussions that were rooted in logic and fact, had no passive aggressive behavior, no insults were exchanged, and both posters were cordial and respectful of each others opinion. Throughout my time in this thread, I've made every effort to express my love of flying, and flying mounts, while also expressing my earnest intent of wanting compelling and engaging content to play through.

Do I think flying ruined the game? No. Did flying ruin PvP? No. Is flying over powered? Yes. Should it be balanced? Yes. Will Blizzard balance it rather than remove it? Unfortunately, no. Will I still play in WoD, and get a feel for the quests, content, and immersion for myself, before I pass judgement? Absolutely. I have no desire to take someone else's blanket word for it. I do not blame anyone for being emotional when it comes to topics like this. I do, however, hold people responsible for their actions while under the influence of that emotion.

- - - Updated - - -

TBH this is and has always been a suck it up issue. Bliz made their decision, most of the playerbase is supportive. The only reason people have against it is because they don't want to be inconvenienced. Well, sorry. Suck it up buttercup. Not to sound insensitive but it just is what it is. Flying over everything destroys the point of the world and its landscape. And games are about playing the game not being efficient. And I really doubt getting around will be much harder using flightpoints.

This comment is neither constructive, nor appropriate to a level of adult discussion. It is possible to support Blizzard's decision without saying things like this (bolded items).

[Barkloud]

My comments about multiple posters expressing emotions is a fact. I would welcome anyone to comb back over these 550+ pages and find 5 constructive discussions that were rooted in logic and fact, had no passive aggressive behavior, no insults were exchanged, and both posters were cordial and respectful of each others opinion. Throughout my time in this thread, I've made every effort to express my love of flying, and flying mounts, while also expressing my earnest intent of wanting compelling and engaging content to play through.

I would love to discuss facts, sadly we do not have any, other than Blizzard is, "going to wait and see....."

Come on... who does that with a 7,000,000 player base?

Honestly, I am speechless over how this is being handled from Blizzards end.

[Real World]

Sound good.

If blizzard wants to dismiss emotional feedback as frivolous then screw them. If at this point there not capable of scanning comments and reading through some of the white noise then we got no use for them.

Every single comment can be useful emotional or not. Sure your going toget some of the outliers that are filled with hyperbole and CAPS and their easy enough to weed out, dismissing a comment because it has some emotion based sentiment is on the line of stupidity as those are usually worth reading. Emotionless based, logic only serves its purpose up to a point but if you think thats the only way to view a debate, your as one sided as they are.

Lets not be like that either.

But back on topic...

We know flying is not the culprit of wow. We know if it was past expansions would have suffered and it would have been removed long before now or at least changed.

We know blizzard has failed to deliver on content and they need something to blame for it other than themselves. Flying took the heat. Blizzard and gamers can say it is because we can skip mobs, or it hinders immersion or it hurts there design but that is pretty much PR fluff because we know from actually playing the game that when we have had a better creative team, we got great content and story with flying in game.

Now, blizzard might just be doing it to slow content consumption and that seems to be what many thing since that very statement was removed from a blue post and if that is really what it boils down to. Not a single gamer should support it after all the time and additional cash many have spent getting flying mounts as well as the dick business move blizzard is pulling still selling flying mounts in the cash shop.

I've bolded the portions that reflect my previous comments about constructive dialog and being taken seriously. I can appreciate your concerns, and understand your obvious frustration with Blizzard, but this will only bring their supporters out of the woodwork to discredit what you are trying to convey. In all of your topic, I think the biggest factor, and likely the most poignant, would be slowing down the content. I know that the removal of flight, intentional or unintentional, will slow things down. When moving between quests, if you are on the ground at 100%, and facing mobs, you will (without a doubt) move slower than someone flying at 3 times that speed with no obstacles. So yes, ground only content will slow everyone down. As for consumption, that will still occur at the same speed, as flying/no flying has no bearing on how fast you kill/quest. So when it comes to slowing us down, no flying truly only slows down your travel to and from cities, hubs, and garrisons no within a reasonable vicinity of a flight path. I have ever hope that the new content will be compelling, engaging, and pull me into the rabbit hole as far as immersion goes; however, should it fall short of reasonable expectations, I will have to either regain my convenience (flying), or I will need to seek compelling game play elsewhere.

- - - Updated - - -

I would love to discuss facts, sadly we do not have any, other than Blizzard is, "going to wait and see....."

Come on... who does that with a 7,000,000 player base?

Honestly, I am speechless over how this is being handled from Blizzards end.

I agree that Blizzard's handling of this particular task was less than stellar. I feel most of these issues may never have arisen had Blizzard set a standard for releasing information in an official capacity. When it comes to social media, and third party interviews, the comments made can be completely misunderstood, twisted, and even misconstrued. It would serve them well to have an announcements page on their official site where all NEW comments begin, and are then tweeted, FB'd, YouTubed, etc. When Bashiok says one thing, and Alex A. says another, and customer service something completely different again, now more than ever, it is important for Blizzard to get all of their teams on the same page.

[Sweetpeaz]

I'd also like to add it's almost impossible to discuss flight without interpreting the differences between PVE and PVP realms. Flight impacts them totally differently, so any consensus on how it effects a specific player is pointless.

What we do know is that for questing at max level blizzard has stated that it trivializes the content. That's a tough stance to take since we've never had much in terms of max level questing. Where we've had it, we've had items to combat flight. So it's difficult if not outright impossible to discuss this in that manner. We didn't have flight in Firelands. Did have it but you could be shot down in MoP. It's tough to know where this idea came from that it trivializes content.

Maybe what they meant is.....as we have it designed in the future it would ruin it? But that's not what they have said.

[bryroo]

You somehow know it wouldn't? Im blown away but what you (don't) bring to the discussion.

You're cute. Tell me more about the social renaissance that the Isle of Thunder and the Timeless Isle have brought about thanks to no flight.

[Barkloud]

I agree that Blizzard's handling of this particular task was less than stellar. I feel most of these issues may never have arisen had Blizzard set a standard for releasing information in an official capacity. When it comes to social media, and third party interviews, the comments made can be completely misunderstood, twisted, and even misconstrued. It would serve them well to have an announcements page on their official site where all NEW comments begin, and are then tweeted, FB'd, YouTubed, etc. When Bashiok says one thing, and Alex A. says another, and customer service something completely different again, now more than ever, it is important for Blizzard to get all of their teams on the same page.

The part that is disheartening is that Blizzard typically does an above average job of communicating. Given their strong communication in the past makes the lack of information on flying even more suspect IMO.

I think losing GC hit Blizzard harder than they anticipated. He was pretty saavy at keeping the mobs under control.

As strong as he is at developing games, I think his real strength is his ability to communicate.

[Real World]

I'd also like to add it's almost impossible to discuss flight without interpreting the differences between PVE and PVP realms. Flight impacts them totally differently, so any consensus on how it effects a specific player is pointless.

What we do know is that for questing at max level blizzard has stated that it trivializes the content. That's a tough stance to take since we've never had much in terms of max level questing. Where we've had it, we've had items to combat flight. So it's difficult if not outright impossible to discuss this in that manner. We didn't have flight in Firelands. Did have it but you could be shot down in MoP. It's tough to know where this idea came from that it trivializes content.

Maybe what they meant is.....as we have it designed in the future it would ruin it? But that's not what they have said.

Ultimately, when it comes to flying, its fix, balance, removal, etc, should always be based on broad scope topics. In my opinion, Flying has positives and negatives in broad, and general terms.

Flying Positives - Regardless of Player type:
- Speed to move across zones and continents
- Point A to B convenience
- Freedom to move about new zones at your leisure
- Improved Farming/Gathering (mining/herb gathering)
- Vanity / Show off new flying mounts from Dungeons

Flying Negatives - Regardless of Player type:
- Trivializes current world content, such as dailies where you can drop in for your objective with no resistance
- Avoid dangers and other players when flying at the top of the skybox
- Speed advantage over players on ground mounts
- Allows quicker consumption of content
- Allows players to grief NPCs and other Players in Cities/Towns without any consequences

Now, putting both columns aside, our biggest obstacle is Blizzard not wanting to fix/balance flying mounts to be more on par with ground mounts. This means two things. One, they believe it is easier to remove the feature than to make it more realistic. Two, when they do add flying to the new zones (which I believe will happen) it will come back in the exact format in which it was removed.

[Sweetpeaz]

SNIP....
I agree that Blizzard's handling of this particular task was less than stellar. I feel most of these issues may never have arisen had Blizzard set a standard for releasing information in an official capacity. When it comes to social media, and third party interviews, the comments made can be completely misunderstood, twisted, and even misconstrued. It would serve them well to have an announcements page on their official site where all NEW comments begin, and are then tweeted, FB'd, YouTubed, etc. When Bashiok says one thing, and Alex A. says another, and customer service something completely different again, now more than ever, it is important for Blizzard to get all of their teams on the same page.

I actually have a theory of this.

They announce no flight in all current content from now on (which actually is a huge issue), but they do so not through formal channels.
Then, they say, we'll allow flight in 6.1 (which added to the previous message will create a stir as well)
Then they say, we may not allow flight at all (which really pisses some people off)
Then they double down by saying 'wait and see', which creates a bigger distress. But they don't really care, because people are still playing the current content, so it isn't hurting them.

What will eventually happen is they will settle on the first message and act like it's the fair result, since nobody liked the other solutions. No flight in current content forever more in WoW.

[Drytoast]

Ultimately, when it comes to flying, its fix, balance, removal, etc, should always be based on broad scope topics. In my opinion, Flying has positives and negatives in broad, and general terms.

Flying Positives - Regardless of Player type:
- Speed to move across zones and continents
- Point A to B convenience
- Freedom to move about new zones at your leisure
- Improved Farming/Gathering (mining/herb gathering)
- Vanity / Show off new flying mounts from Dungeons

Flying Negatives - Regardless of Player type:
- Trivializes current world content, such as dailies where you can drop in for your objective with no resistance
- Avoid dangers and other players when flying at the top of the skybox
- Speed advantage over players on ground mounts
- Allows quicker consumption of content
- Allows players to grief NPCs and other Players in Cities/Towns without any consequences

Now, putting both columns aside, our biggest obstacle is Blizzard not wanting to fix/balance flying mounts to be more on par with ground mounts. This means two things. One, they believe it is easier to remove the feature than to make it more realistic. Two, when they do add flying to the new zones (which I believe will happen) it will come back in the exact format in which it was removed.

You are building a list based off of people complaining after blizzard mentioned something about flying mounts. in other words the cons are made up and are only NOW suddenly a CON.

So why does their need to be any change at all? It was fine for 7 years without complaint.

[Real World]

I'd also like to add it's almost impossible to discuss flight without interpreting the differences between PVE and PVP realms. Flight impacts them totally differently, so any consensus on how it effects a specific player is pointless.

What we do know is that for questing at max level blizzard has stated that it trivializes the content. That's a tough stance to take since we've never had much in terms of max level questing. Where we've had it, we've had items to combat flight. So it's difficult if not outright impossible to discuss this in that manner. We didn't have flight in Firelands. Did have it but you could be shot down in MoP. It's tough to know where this idea came from that it trivializes content.

Maybe what they meant is.....as we have it designed in the future it would ruin it? But that's not what they have said.

I've agreed with others in this respect. I feel Blizz should have a "Breaking News" page where all of their items go. Once on the page, employees are then free to Tweet it, Facebook it, etc. But until then, anyone making media comments outside of the Breaking News page, or comments not linked to the page for PR approval are met with automatic rejection. We need to know the information we are being given is reliable, and verifiable. Without that, we are at the mercy of those who will spin stories and make up "facts" without any solid evidence to support their claims. It is one thing to change direction in a design plan; however, it is something else entirely when your intentions can be construed as dishonest. The most important thing Blizz could ever hope to do is stay above reproach.

- - - Updated - - -

You are building a list based off of people complaining after blizzard mentioned something about flying mounts. in other words the cons are made up and are only NOW suddenly a CON.

So why does their need to be any change at all? It was fine for 7 years without complaint.

Though it is true this list has only just truly made it into the limelight with this announcement, can we honestly say these things did NOT occur in TBC, Wrath, and Cata as well? The importance of being objective is to examine what could be considered as credible arguments. These things are very credible, and can be applied all the way back to TBC. I would know as I was guilty of at least 4 of them. I am taking an honest look at the reasons. I will not cherry pick things to show bias in either format. I am after the truth.

[gamingmuscle]

How did i know i couldn't use a big word like immersion without you all having to google it and get hung up on the dictionary definition.

Not sure if you realize how hypocritical it is to say how subjective something then only go by strictly what the definition of the word is.

I don't understand, I know what immersion is, even without the dictionary definition. But I will go with the dictionary definition over what someone claims it means in a forum discussion. What you described makes no sense as something that would break immersion. I don't get it, how does what you described prevent you from accepting the world. I get that maybe you don't want to, because it doesn't align with your personal prefferences. Not sure if that would really be considered immersion breaking...I'd call it simply not liking it. Removing flying for Draenor only is immersion breaking, as someone else put it "it contradicts the rules laid out by the game".