Top 10 List - Necessary DK Changes

[Clash the DK]

Here we go:



1. Having both Frost Strike and Obliterate consume Killing Machine does not work. It renders the proc meaningless because we are always hitting one or the other. What will work? Frost Strike works well because it creates fluid tension within our resource system. Howling Blast (assuming DW Frost uses Obliterate) or Soul Reaper could be paired with Frost Strike for the most optimal gameplay.


2. Unholy needing to use Icy Touch just to sync up our runes for AoE feels extremely bad. That is the only reason we would need to use IT because Plague Strike applies both FF & BP. Icy Touch is the worst kind of “button bloat” for Unholy. Instead of current Blood Boil or incoming Pestilence, Unholy could use an AoE ability that costs 1 Blood / 1 Frost so that Festering Strike is mimicked. Another option would be to change the Frost Runes into permanent Death Runes and then work things out from there.


3. Death’s Advance cannot remain in the same tier as Chilblains and Asphyxiate. This situation annoys me to no end. Having to switch back and forth for every other encounter does not make Clash a happy camper. If a tier in our talent grid were to be freed up, then a movement tier including DA would make a lot of sense. Otherwise, they should just make it baseline. Furthermore, they should also make it passive to prevent “button bloat”.


4. Runic Corruption needs to be a legitimate option for Frost. The fact that RE and BT can be gamed creates a big advantage for them over RC. The fact that Frost does not highly value Unholy Runes is the reason why we do game RE and BT in the first place. Therefore, how do we increase the value of Unholy Runes? My suggestion is to change the cost of Obliterate to either two Unholy Runes or even one single Unholy Rune. In that scenario, we would even feel good about using Obliterate in AoE because it may proc Rime. Also, the value of Mastery is increased for 2H Frost as you would use frost based abilities with your Frost Runes. Good stuff all around.


5. There is not enough difference between Blood Tap and Runic Empowerment. Most people macro BT, which then plays way too similar to RE. I don’t even know what to do about this situation. There is only so many ways to refresh runes. My gut tells me that Blood Tap should be nerfed because it gives Death Runes. It would still hold value in PvP regardless.


6. Unholy has too large of an advantage over Frost in PvP. The penalty for using Blood Presence is extremely skewed. This needs to be regulated more fairly. Also, the movement speed increase to Unholy Presence needs to be made available to all specs in some form. Our lack of mobility is a major problem. And I’m just talking about PvE there.


7. Death Siphon and Necrotic Strike should not cost the same rune type. We are designed to use Necrotic Strike to apply pressure. We are also designed to self-heal as part of our defensive capabilities. We need to be able to do both at the same time. Necrotic Strike should cost a Unholy Rune. Furthermore, I strongly believe that Death Strike should only be available to Blood spec. And Death Siphon should be baseline for Frost and Unholy as a replacement.


8. Plaguebearer should not be implemented. I’m all for easier disease application (especially for Blood spec), but Plaguebearer takes things too far. Applying diseases is an important niche for DK’s and Plaguebearer makes that too passive. Removing the cool down from Outbreak is a much, much better idea.


9. Frost spec is lacking in the pizzazz department. I would really like to see a single target frost spell added to the repertoire. I am imagining a frosty white Death Coil. Don’t get me wrong, I love Howling Blast. But I would love it more if I only needed to use it on two or more targets. I would also love Howling Blast more if it spread Blood Plague for that matter.


10. Soul Reaper should detonate after three seconds instead of five. This has been talked about forever. Three seconds would feel so much better. But if that is not something the Devs are willing to do, then I suggest taking the ability into the opposite direction. Double or triple the cooldown, detonate time and damage, and allow the detonation to activate below 50% health. I want to see things absolutely explode when my execute goes off.

[Challenge]

1. Talent tree untidiness. Stuff like AMZ and DA really need to be baseline by now. And each tier should have more define themes.

2. Talent tree usefulness. A death knight before t16 could literally use 0 major glyphs and only the t75 tier and preform optimally. No other class can(could) do this. Speaking of which, the over usefulness of t75 and non existent difference between the 3 (and shitness of RE for blood/unholy and shitness of RC for frost) needs to get looked at.

3. Glyph tidiness/usefulness. Lots of garbage undertuned glyphs like death coil. Come wod there will be 3 glyphs for ams. >.>. Why?

4. Death runes. While it works for PvE, death runes should be a wild card, like in Wotlk. In PvP if you want anything to die as unholy all death runes has to go to necrotic strike (next point).

5. Necrotic strike only really works with unholy ATM. Reason being is frost relies so much on obliterate and frost strike damage they can't sacrifice the rune for it. For it to hold merit as frost too, it should cost 30 runic power, and benefit from KM and sudden doom should make necrotic strike free.

6. Orphaned frost runes as unholy. To go back to #4 death runes should be wild cards. In that sense, frost runes should be permanent death runes for unholy. Works much smoother for both aoe and single target.

7. Class identityLosing raise undead, no strike multiplier, and that stupid plaguebearer, frost DKs are practically blue wariiors. Bring the flavor back. Another rotational attack would help with this. Of a talent the summons more undead that actually compliments gameplay (bloodworms/lich/second ghoul for unholy?) Hungering cold back for frost only? Something flashy to look at.

8. Spec/Class tidiness: Many relic abilities like serve 0 usefulness to cling onto. Presences. Blood strike. Double diseases without ANY interaction post WoD. Strangulate still has a cost? Why? Could save blood strike and make it do some DECENT damage if #6 worked out.

9. Mechanical: killing machine needs to get looked at. Making it only effect frost strike, soul reaper, and necrotic strike could help. I still think AMS should not generate runic power and slightly increase the scaling of haste so it's not get as much haste as possible the start an expansion and avoid it like the plague at the end.

10: I hope plaguebearer does not go live.... Diseases are just suppose to be fun not mindless.

[Deleted]

Here we go:

1. Having both FS and OB work consume KM does work. It just shouldn't proc on autoattacks, but on FS so you don't accidantally use it on the wrong ability. Having it work with HB would not work, since DW still uses HB in its rotation (about 3 times as many HB as OB) even in WoD. The change you are referencing simply causes DW to not drop OB entirely.

2. Using IT in the UH rotation does not feel bad, gameplay-wise. It's just not as rewarding as it could be. Having your Frost-runes as perma-death-runes would then lead to blood runes being the weird runes, then you'd call for blood to be perma-death. and by then you'd only be spamming SS.

3. DA baseline/passive would be amazing, and completely against the dk class philosophy, which states that DKs are slow. We aren't supposed to move fast. That's why I don't like it: it is something desperately needed for a class that shouldn't have it. Still, should be baseline.

4. RC is a viable option for frost, period. All three sim about 2% from each other.

5. BT on a 0.5s gcd should work fine

6. Nerf Blood Pres, buff baseline defenses. Regarding movement, see 3.

7. No problem there. DS and NS using the same rune is NOT a problem. At all. You are supposed to think about which ability to use.

8. I agree, PB is far to strong, and I'm absolutely sure it will be changed several times during beta, and will not go live as it currently is.

9. Blizz want's to reduce button bloat, and your suggestion is a ability that adds a useless button. Hm. No chances there. Though I agree that Frost is a bit lacking both in the number of abilitys as well as visuals. HB spreading BP would change... nothing. Except dropping PS out of our ST-rotation.

10. Would also change nothing (Except on mobs that die in less than 5s I guess, but those generally come in large packs, so you should use HB anyway), and this is the first time i read this suggestion.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Talent tree untidiness. Stuff like AMZ and DA really need to be baseline by now. And each tier should have more define themes.

2. Talent tree usefulness. A death knight before t14 and t15 could literally use 0 major glyphs and only the t75 tier and preform optimally. No other class can(could) do this. Speaking of which, the over usefulness of t75 and non existent difference between the 3 (and shitness of RE for blood/unholy and shitness of RC for frost) needs to get looked at.

3. Glyph tidiness/usefulness. Lots of garbage undertuned glyphs like death coil. Come wod there will be 3 glyphs for ams. >.>. Why?

4. Death runes. While it works for PvE, death runes should be a wild card, like in Wotlk. In PvP if you want anything to die as unholy all death runes has to go to necrotic strike (next point).

5. Necrotic strike only really works with unholy ATM. Reason being is frost relies so much on obliterate and frost strike damage they can't sacrifice the rune for it. For it to hold merit as frost too, it should cost 30 runic power, and benefit from KM and sudden doom should make necrotic strike free.

6. Orphaned frost runes as unholy. To go back to #4 death runes should be wild cards. In that sense, frost runes should be permanent death runes for unholy. Works much smoother for both aoe and single target.

7. Class identityLosing raise undead, no strike multiplier, and that stupid plaguebearer, frost DKs are practically blue wariiors. Bring the flavor back. Another rotational attack would help with this. Of a talent the summons more undead that actually compliments gameplay (bloodworms/lich/second ghoul for unholy?) Hungering cold back for frost only? Something flashy to look at.

8. Spec/Class tidiness: Many relic abilities like serve 0 usefulness to cling onto. Presences. Blood strike. Double diseases without ANY interaction post WoD. Strangulate still has a cost? Why? Could save blood strike and make it do some DECENT damage if #6 worked out.

9. Mechanical: killing machine needs to get looked at. Making it only effect frost strike, soul reaper, and necrotic strike could help. I still think AMS should not generate runic power and slightly increase the scaling of haste so it's not get as much haste as possible the start an expansion and avoid it like the plague at the end.

10: I hope plaguebearer does not go live.... Diseases are just suppose to be fun not mindless.

1. Agree

2. None of our tiers are useless. There are useless talents in some tiers, but the tiers themselves all contain at least one useful choice. Tier 75 being that useful is NOT a problem, except if you are not level 75 yet, which is adressed in WoD by switching it with tier 60. Difference between the 3 talents should be bigger though.

3. Most classes are in this situation. Nothing dk-specific, and apperently the desired goal. 3 AMS-glyphs are a bit excessive, but not really a problem

4. That would be nice, but not doable without a class overhaul

5. Simple balance-problem. Also we'll have to wait how the hp-changes in WoD turn out.

6. See my other post, not a problem

7. Agree, except on the lich: Lorewise, Lich and DK are equally powerful. A DK summoning a Lich would be ridiculous

8. BS is useful for unholy until lvl 62 (when you get FeS), except BB does more damage AND is AE. It's useless for frost though.
Apart from that, first you complain about losing class identity, than you continue advocating removal of presences and diseases. Ever thought about what if it were the other way round? Would you complain then that DKs are losing identity with the removal of presences and diseases? and that the stike modifier and AotD were a relic of the past and should go? A lot of players complain just for the sake of complaining, and this looks like the perfect example. Just saying.

9. KM needs to get looked at: Soul Fire treatment and not proc on auto attacks.
AMS: there's a glyph for that in WoD (you complained about that, remember)
if you make AMS no longer generate RP and increase the scaling of haste, that would have EXACTLY the effect you try to avoid: too strong in the first tier, useless in the last

10. Agree

[Deleted]

Here we go:



1. Having both Frost Strike and Obliterate consume Killing Machine does not work. It renders the proc meaningless because we are always hitting one or the other. What will work? Frost Strike works well because it creates fluid tension within our resource system. Howling Blast (assuming DW Frost uses Obliterate) or Soul Reaper could be paired with Frost Strike for the most optimal gameplay.


2H frost in PVE does more dmg with Obliterate, so can't take away Killing Machine from them.

2. Unholy needing to use Icy Touch just to sync up our runes for AoE feels extremely bad. That is the only reason we would need to use IT because Plague Strike applies both FF & BP. Icy Touch is the worst kind of “button bloat” for Unholy. Instead of current Blood Boil or incoming Pestilence, Unholy could use an AoE ability that costs 1 Blood / 1 Frost so that Festering Strike is mimicked. Another option would be to change the Frost Runes into permanent Death Runes and then work things out from there.

Unholy in PVE doesn't need to use Icy Touch, so it's not really a button bloat. And in PVP it removes buffs from the enemy player when glyphed.

3. Death’s Advance cannot remain in the same tier as Chilblains and Asphyxiate. This situation annoys me to no end. Having to switch back and forth for every other encounter does not make Clash a happy camper. If a tier in our talent grid were to be freed up, then a movement tier including DA would make a lot of sense. Otherwise, they should just make it baseline. Furthermore, they should also make it passive to prevent “button bloat”.

Don't mind.

4. Runic Corruption needs to be a legitimate option for Frost. The fact that RE and BT can be gamed creates a big advantage for them over RC. The fact that Frost does not highly value Unholy Runes is the reason why we do game RE and BT in the first place. Therefore, how do we increase the value of Unholy Runes? My suggestion is to change the cost of Obliterate to either two Unholy Runes or even one single Unholy Rune. In that scenario, we would even feel good about using Obliterate in AoE because it may proc Rime. Also, the value of Mastery is increased for 2H Frost as you would use frost based abilities with your Frost Runes. Good stuff all around.

I think they want to balance them all, a bit hard.


5. There is not enough difference between Blood Tap and Runic Empowerment. Most people macro BT, which then plays way too similar to RE. I don’t even know what to do about this situation. There is only so many ways to refresh runes. My gut tells me that Blood Tap should be nerfed because it gives Death Runes. It would still hold value in PvP regardless.

But people who really wants to do the best they can don't macro it and it adds a lot for them.


6. Unholy has too large of an advantage over Frost in PvP. The penalty for using Blood Presence is extremely skewed. This needs to be regulated more fairly. Also, the movement speed increase to Unholy Presence needs to be made available to all specs in some form. Our lack of mobility is a major problem. And I’m just talking about PvE there.

I do believe they want to balance everything.

7. Death Siphon and Necrotic Strike should not cost the same rune type. We are designed to use Necrotic Strike to apply pressure. We are also designed to self-heal as part of our defensive capabilities. We need to be able to do both at the same time. Necrotic Strike should cost a Unholy Rune. Furthermore, I strongly believe that Death Strike should only be available to Blood spec. And Death Siphon should be baseline for Frost and Unholy as a replacement.

People use Death Siphon?

8. Plaguebearer should not be implemented. I’m all for easier disease application (especially for Blood spec), but Plaguebearer takes things too far. Applying diseases is an important niche for DK’s and Plaguebearer makes that too passive. Removing the cool down from Outbreak is a much, much better idea.

Also a bit OP

9. Frost spec is lacking in the pizzazz department. I would really like to see a single target frost spell added to the repertoire. I am imagining a frosty white Death Coil. Don’t get me wrong, I love Howling Blast. But I would love it more if I only needed to use it on two or more targets. I would also love Howling Blast more if it spread Blood Plague for that matter.

Frost Strike is a single target spell, deals frost dmg, not physical. The HB with blood plague seems a bit too crazy.


10. Soul Reaper should detonate after three seconds instead of five. This has been talked about forever. Three seconds would feel so much better.

Well it's an art using Soul Reaper, think it would get too crazy with 3 seconds.

--------------------------------------

[Maxweii]

But people who really wants to do the best they can don't macro it and it adds a lot for them.

This is all I will add to this thread because I think it's pretty pointless with what's being said here.
Un-macro'd and macro'd BT do very little overall and the only real thing that is between them is a slight bit of control on EXACTLY when you get the rune back. They still do the same thing, and un-macro'd has a much higher risk to cap charges and waste them.

[Deleted]

Un-macro'd and macro'd BT do very little overall and the only real thing that is between them is a slight bit of control on EXACTLY when you get the rune back. They still do the same thing, and un-macro'd has a much higher risk to cap charges and waste them.

This.
The only way un-macroed BT is a dmg-increase over macroed BT is if you pool charges for when trinkets/PoF/pots are up, so you get one extra strike during them. However, since trinkets proc so often and PoF has such a short cd, most of the time it is not possible to have enough charges for them, making the increase you get so small the risk of capping charges outweighs them

[Wrien]

1. Rework current Threat of Thassarian and Might of the Frozen Wastes so that they give DW and 2h different bonuses, but doesn't make them play differently (no more damage boosts to specific skills). Boost Frost Strike and Obliterate damage to make up for the loss of the damage bonuses from ToT and MotFW. ToT should make all weapon strikes hit with both weapons while dual wielding only (DW has razorice and more frequent killing machine), and MotFW should increase melee-damage and the critical chance of all melee-skills by 15% only (2h has better physical damage and crit chance). DW and 2h should play the same, and the play-style will be like a merged version of the current 2h and DW frost. Imagine Frost Strike does 170% weapon damage and Obliterate does 320% weapon damage (based on current live values).
Reason for these changes:
- 2h and DW should play the same way and mostly be a cosmetic option
- No more wasting killing machine procs on Obliterate or Frost Strike
- no over-focus on one skill (like 2h frost live)
- making DW use Obliterate again, and giving DW the same benefits from Rime as 2h
- making 2h frost feel more like Frost and not a slightly modified warrior, and making core skills like Frost Strike and Howling Blast not feel crap with 2h.

2. Redo killing machine. No longer works with Obliterate, but instead works with Frost Strike, Soul Reaper and Howling Blast. Obliterate already has a proc related to it in Rime. With the "Improved Rime perk" Rime will be even better. This will make Killing Machine situational instead of something we don't think about. KM will apply to soul reaper the moment you use it, and not the moment it procs. Reasons: A. Make Killing Machine fun and situational, B. remove unnecessary complexity, C. Improve depth

3. Redo our talents. Our talents are boring and many of the tiers are a mess. Look at mages, warlocks and warriors for example. They get talents that are fun, and it's actually hard to choose one talent in a row. For DK's it's either "use one talent in one situation" or "another one in another situation", or else there's no choices at all. The new lvl 100 tier is probably the only fun tier so far for DK's that has actual choices. Give us some spec-based talents as well.

4. Redo Presences. UH presence is useless for Frost, Frost Presence is useless for Unholy, UH and Frost presence are useless for blood. Blood Presence is quite alright in some situations for UH and Frost. Remove improved presences for UH and Frost. Make UH and Frost Presence good for for all specs, and let us choose which one we want to stay in rather than being forced into one:
- Make Unholy Presence increase haste and movement speed by 15%.
- Make Frost Presence increase runic power generation by 20% and reduce the cost of Frost Strike and Death Coil by 10 (also reduce base cost of Frost Strike by 5 so that it still costs 20 in FP). And reduce the duration of CC-effects by 20% (as it does on live)

5. Make frost more fun to play (not unnecessary complexity). Give us more skills, make us more unique. Frost really feels lacking when it comes to skill-quantity. We used to have more skills, but they got removed. Hungering Cold was fun and really made frost feel unique. Remove Remorseless Winter. Replace it with a new spec-based talent that is Hungering Cold for Frost and something else for UH and Blood.
Give us a new strong short-CD (8-15 sec) damage skill, to make the spec feel less spammy and the rotation less repeated. Shattering Thrust, Glacier Burst or something.

6. Don't remove Death Coil from Frost. It's needed to generate runes from range and also has other uses.

7. Either remove AMZ or make it baseline for Frost and UH. Replace the empty talent-spot with a talent UH used to have, Shadow of Death: Whenever you die, you return to keep fighting as a Ghoul for 20 sec. This talent really made DK's unique.

8. Don't let Plaguebearer go live. It would make applying diseases too easy and make many skills completely useless (plague strike, icy touch, outbreak etc.)

9. placeholder

10. placeholder.

[BlackBoss]

Been playing unholy since wrath and this taking from unholy to add to frost sucks. Unholy should have its own exclusives. Unholy should have AMS charging RP, should have bone shield (unholy magic), DA as it did in Cata and wrath, AMZ and summon goul. I think that Frost should be a DW based spec and Unholy a 2h based spec.

[Deleted]

a whole spec for dw? no thanks. keep that shit out. ty

[Clash the DK]

1. Having both FS and OB work consume KM does work. It just shouldn't proc on autoattacks, but on FS so you don't accidantally use it on the wrong ability. Having it work with HB would not work, since DW still uses HB in its rotation (about 3 times as many HB as OB) even in WoD. The change you are referencing simply causes DW to not drop OB entirely.

2. Using IT in the UH rotation does not feel bad, gameplay-wise. It's just not as rewarding as it could be. Having your Frost-runes as perma-death-runes would then lead to blood runes being the weird runes, then you'd call for blood to be perma-death. and by then you'd only be spamming SS.

3. DA baseline/passive would be amazing, and completely against the dk class philosophy, which states that DKs are slow. We aren't supposed to move fast. That's why I don't like it: it is something desperately needed for a class that shouldn't have it. Still, should be baseline.

4. RC is a viable option for frost, period. All three sim about 2% from each other.

5. BT on a 0.5s gcd should work fine

6. Nerf Blood Pres, buff baseline defenses. Regarding movement, see 3.

7. No problem there. DS and NS using the same rune is NOT a problem. At all. You are supposed to think about which ability to use.

8. I agree, PB is far to strong, and I'm absolutely sure it will be changed several times during beta, and will not go live as it currently is.

9. Blizz want's to reduce button bloat, and your suggestion is a ability that adds a useless button. Hm. No chances there. Though I agree that Frost is a bit lacking both in the number of abilitys as well as visuals. HB spreading BP would change... nothing. Except dropping PS out of our ST-rotation.

10. Would also change nothing (Except on mobs that die in less than 5s I guess, but those generally come in large packs, so you should use HB anyway), and this is the first time i read this suggestion.

1. Having KM proc from FS would be extremely awkward. That does not sound like fun at all. The best move would be for KM to affect FS and Soul Reaper. Although I really do miss KM affecting HB like it did way back in the day. I still think that could work too if we got that new single target frost spell I mentioned.

2. I obviously disagree. I do think using IT in the Unholy rotation feels bad, gameplay-wise. Why would there ever be a problem with Blood Runes in the permanent Death Runes scenario? The only time things get wacky is during AoE. And Blood Boil / new Pestilence costs exactly one Blood Rune.

3. Personally, I would like to see the speed increase from Unholy Presence rolled into DA and then have DA be completely passive. Something like a flat 25-30% permanent speed increase.

4. RC is crap for DW Frost. And RC is crap for Frost in general during AoE situations.

5. Having BT on a 0.5 second gcd would probably be a good idea.

6. Not sure how Blood spec would feel about nerfing Blood Presence.

7. No, PvP players just take Conversion or Death Pact. Having DS and NS using the same rune IS a problem.

8. Yes, yes.

9. Frost doesn't use a ton of abilities as of right now. With the freeing up of space from Horn of Winter and potentially PL, there is some room to move. This type of ability would not be "useless". There are plenty of times when you do not want to AoE. Also, we are supposed to be seeing big buffs to our diseases. Having HB spread BP would free up some space by keeping Blood Boil / new Pestilence off our bars.

10. If you were to PvP, then you might have a different opinion on this one.

[Schizoide]

KM is a major issue, because we currently ignore it. It's my primary DK concern for 6.0. If it only affected FS or Obliterate (depending on spec), or any of the solutions in this thread, we would still ignore it. It would just be a straight-up buff, but would not fix the underlying problem.

I agree that Blood Tap needs to be made unmacroable, but straight up putting it on the GCD is not the answer. They tried that in the MoP beta and it was just plain horrible. If it didn't require a free GCD to use (ie, you could use it 0.0001 seconds after casting Obliterate) and only incurred a 0.1s GCD, just enough to stop it from being macroed, that could work. My guess is there's some technical reason blocking that from happening, or they would have done it in MoP beta.

I hate gaming Runic Empowerment, because I feel holding back a rune to game the resource system is negative gameplay. DKs should want to spend their runes. That said, if RE was buffed so that gaming it offered a clear performance advantage over RC, it would at least offer players a real choice.

Lastly, I'm greatly concerned about Unholy Rampup. This isn't an issue at all now in endgame MoP raiding gear, but back in 5.0 and even 5.1, Unholy took forever to get diseases up and the pet transformed. It just felt awful playing the spec in solo and group content. This needs to happen faster in the beginning of each expansion and leveling in greens and blues.

There are lots of other problems, agree that Death's Advance is such a non-sexy PvE choice, but we take it anyway because the alternatives are worse. Definitely agree that the Icy Touch "fix" for Unholy AE was poorly thought out; they should have changed Blood Boil (now Pestilence) to cost 1B1F and doubled its damage instead. I could go on, but really KM, the rune regen tier, and unholy rampup are my primary concerns for 6.0.

[Deleted]

stuff

1. The devs don't want dw and 2h to play the same, a lot of dks don't want that, and so the chances they'll make them play the same are pretty slim. They should however investigate the problems you mentioned

2. Only works if dw and 2h play the same, else dw would profit extremely more from KM than 2h, which would only lead to 2h focusing even more in OB. Since 1., scrap that idea.

3. Talents are supposed to be situational or based on preferences, and work for both pve and pvp. Which they do, with a few exceptions (unholy ground is pretty useless in pve). Don't see why tier 100 should be more of a choice than t75, since there also will always be one that is superior to the others, even more the case than with t75. Speaking of which, these three are to similar

4. I get the point the devs are making, because like was the case during cata, using uh presence as a frost dk seems pretty weird. However, more interaction with our presences would be nice

5. I agree that Frost needs some love. I disagree with hungering cold, that was simply too op. that's why it got removed in the first place.
Also: Make Frost feel less like an arms warrior, give them colossus smash. Nice reasoning.

6. Frost doesn't need DC. Really. It doesn't. Even without it, it performs by FAR the best out of all meele classes when at range. And having DC which you use only if the target is more than 15s out of your reach is a pretty good example of button bloat.

7. agree on AMZ baseline. Disagree on shadow of death: was incredibly fun and unique, but a) it was too strong, that's why it got removed, and b) it doesn't fit in that talent row at all.

8. agree

[Deleted]

Plaguebearer just seems a bit too passive gameplay, hit DC or FS and get your diseases up. With Unholy Blight allowing you to apply diseases to multiple targets on a 90 second cooldown and the current Roiling Blood, allowing you to spread diseases when using BB, going away i propose a new ability that provides a similar effect but with a DK aestetic to it.
Corpse explosion is currently a minor glyph used only for aesthetics, what if it became a talent?
Corpse explosion; 1 Death rune
Detonate a corpse causing X amount of Shadowfrost damage and applying your diseases to all targets in 12 yards.
30 second cooldown, 30 yard range.
Thoughts?

[Schizoide]

That shares a problem with the old corpse explosion, really inherent to the ability-- it requires a corpse in the right spot to explode.

The only time it could be used is in AE, but the problem there is that most mobs tend to die around the same time in AE. So by the time you've got a corpse to explode, the other mobs in the group are about to die anyway.

Also note that while the Roiling Blood talent is indeed going away, Pestilence will work exactly like Blood Boil with Roiling Blood does today.

[Deleted]

Been playing unholy since wrath and this taking from unholy to add to frost sucks. Unholy should have its own exclusives. Unholy should have AMS charging RP, should have bone shield (unholy magic), DA as it did in Cata and wrath, AMZ and summon goul. I think that Frost should be a DW based spec and Unholy a 2h based spec.

taking away everything that somewhere has something to do with unholy from blood is a stupid idea. following that, the only logical thing to do would be to take away frost fever and BB from unholy too. It would end up beeing three different classes with the only common thing being runes. That idea is straight out.
Funny you mention Frost dw and unholy 2h, because some think the reverse would make more sense. Best option in my opinion would be to allow every spec to use 2h and dw (maybe not for blood, but there are still some who think dw-blood is a good idea)

KM is a major issue, because we currently ignore it. It's my primary DK concern for 6.0. If it only affected FS or Obliterate (depending on spec), or any of the solutions in this thread, we would still ignore it. It would just be a straight-up buff, but would not fix the underlying problem.

I agree that Blood Tap needs to be made unmacroable, but straight up putting it on the GCD is not the answer. They tried that in the MoP beta and it was just plain horrible. If it didn't require a free GCD to use (ie, you could use it 0.0001 seconds after casting Obliterate) and only incurred a 0.1s GCD, just enough to stop it from being macroed, that could work. My guess is there's some technical reason blocking that from happening, or they would have done it in MoP beta.

I hate gaming Runic Empowerment, because I feel holding back a rune to game the resource system is negative gameplay. DKs should want to spend their runes. That said, if RE was buffed so that gaming it offered a clear performance advantage over RC, it would at least offer players a real choice.

Lastly, I'm greatly concerned about Unholy Rampup. This isn't an issue at all now in endgame MoP raiding gear, but back in 5.0 and even 5.1, Unholy took forever to get diseases up and the pet transformed. It just felt awful playing the spec in solo and group content. This needs to happen faster in the beginning of each expansion and leveling in greens and blues.

There are lots of other problems, agree that Death's Advance is such a non-sexy PvE choice, but we take it anyway because the alternatives are worse. Definitely agree that the Icy Touch "fix" for Unholy AE was poorly thought out; they should have changed Blood Boil (now Pestilence) to cost 1B1F and doubled its damage instead. I could go on, but really KM, the rune regen tier, and unholy rampup are my primary concerns for 6.0.

KM: agree 100%
BT: With the WoD changes, we will have a lot of free gcds, so I don't think having BT on the gcd would be as big of a problem as during MoP beta
RE: that's why it's a talent. so you aren't forced to use it. gaming it should be more rewarding, not gaming it more punishing.
Unholy rampup: getting diseases up is not a problem. that's one gcd. Dark Transformation I can see your point, but I think that's intentional, even more so in WoD when they want to remove stackable cds.

[Clash the DK]

2H frost in PVE does more dmg with Obliterate, so can't take away Killing Machine from them.

Unholy in PVE doesn't need to use Icy Touch, so it's not really a button bloat. And in PVP it removes buffs from the enemy player when glyphed.

People use Death Siphon?

Frost Strike is a single target spell, deals frost dmg, not physical. The HB with blood plague seems a bit too crazy.

Well it's an art using Soul Reaper, think it would get too crazy with 3 seconds.

I think the fair approach would be to give Obliterate a certain extra chance to crit baseline. It was that way in WotLK, it could be again. In that scenario, Obliterate would still pack a punch and the integrity of Killing Machine would be preserved.

On occasion, Unholy needs IT in PvE to convert Frost Runes into Death Runes. This tends to happen when you need DoTs up fast and your B/F are not already converted to Death Runes. Some will say that it's all about preparation. I say that it sucks temporarily tanking my dps by using FeS over SS so that I am prepared. This will hurt worse during WoD with a stronger SS.

The PvP situation with glyphed Icy Touch plus the valid option of using Chilblains/Chains of Ice is one reason why I think permanent Death Runes is the better fix to the problem.

Death Siphon is great in PvE right now!

Frost Strike is a single target "strike" which deals frost damage. I'm talking about a ranged "spell" that costs a single Frost Rune and is superior to Howling Blast on single targets.

I am suggesting that HB could spread Blood Plague (like Pestilence). Not apply Blood Plague. Unsure if that was clear.

I think that Soul Reaper should detonate after 3 seconds. I am not suggesting that the cooldown should be lowered. Unsure if that was clear as well.

[Schizoide]

BT: With the WoD changes, we will have a lot of free gcds, so I don't think having BT on the gcd would be as big of a problem as during MoP beta

Lets get real for a moment-- they've been trying to free GCDs for the past 2 expansions. I have zero confidence that DKs will have free GCDs in patch 6.1, much less patch 6.4. They need to redesign the haste curve as pertains to resource generation to offer greater rewards at low haste levels and less at high ones, but have not shown any intention to do so. BT needs to both not require a free GCD to cast and not consume a full GCD.

Unholy could easily take 30 seconds to ramp-up in greens and blues. That's 2-3x other specs. I don't think it's intentional.

[Deleted]

1. Having KM proc from FS would be extremely awkward. That does not sound like fun at all. The best move would be for KM to affect FS and Soul Reaper. Although I really do miss KM affecting HB like it did way back in the day. I still think that could work too if we got that new single target frost spell I mentioned.

2. I obviously disagree. I do think using IT in the Unholy rotation feels bad, gameplay-wise. Why would there ever be a problem with Blood Runes in the permanent Death Runes scenario? The only time things get wacky is during AoE. And Blood Boil / new Pestilence costs exactly one Blood Rune.

3. Personally, I would like to see the speed increase from Unholy Presence rolled into DA and then have DA be completely passive. Something like a flat 25-30% permanent speed increase.

4. RC is crap for DW Frost. And RC is crap for Frost in general during AoE situations.

5. Having BT on a 0.5 second gcd would probably be a good idea.

6. Not sure how Blood spec would feel about nerfing Blood Presence.

7. No, PvP players just take Conversion or Death Pact. Having DS and NS using the same rune IS a problem.

8. Yes, yes.

9. Frost doesn't use a ton of abilities as of right now. With the freeing up of space from Horn of Winter and potentially PL, there is some room to move. This type of ability would not be "useless". There are plenty of times when you do not want to AoE. Also, we are supposed to be seeing big buffs to our diseases. Having HB spread BP would free up some space by keeping Blood Boil / new Pestilence off our bars.

10. If you were to PvP, then you might have a different opinion on this one.

1. don't see how KM procing on FS would be more awkward than having it proc just when you pressed FS (for 2h) or OB (for dw).
2. the problem would be that you'd use those death runes for SS, and dropped FeS out of your rotation. Then you'd have to use your blood runes on BB.
3. as I said, would be a huge and needed buff to our movement, but contrary to our class identity
4. 2% less than gamed RE/BT is NOT crap. what is crap is that macroed BT is just as passive as RC but gives more runes
6. As I said, baseline buff to our defenses. Nothing would change for blood, unholy and frost would be less squishy
7. If you take conversion/DP anyway, then it doesn't matter what rune DSi is on. Them using the same rune is intentional, seeing as DSi offers more healing than both conversion and DP
9. You do realise your idea is just "HB without the ae, additionally to HB"? That is a pretty good case for button bloat. I agree frost doesn't have enough main abilities, but something like that wouldn't help.
10. Because it can get dispelled? probably intentional.

- - - Updated - - -

Lets get real for a moment-- they've been trying to free GCDs for the past 2 expansions. I have zero confidence that DKs will have free GCDs in patch 6.1, much less patch 6.4. They need to redesign the haste curve as pertains to resource generation to offer greater rewards at low haste levels and less at high ones, but have not shown any intention to do so. BT needs to both not require a free GCD to cast and not consume a full GCD.

Unholy could easily take 30 seconds to ramp-up in greens and blues. That's 2-3x other specs. I don't think it's intentional.

Well, they did cap AMS at 100RP, which is an INCREDIBLY large step in the right direction. (On a side note, I predict DPS-dks cancelling HP-buffs to gain more RP out of AMS)

Well, Dark Transformation is supposed to be a damage cd (in reverse, first you run the "cd", then you get the effect), so including that in your rampup-time is not quite correct. Although agree that a dps-cd with 30s rampup time is pretty extreme, especially in PvP (also in PvE, depending on fight lenght you effectively can use it one time less than other cds)

[PuppetShowJustice]

4. RC is a viable option for frost, period. All three sim about 2% from each other.

I've seen nothing but arguing over this talent row since it was made and the conclusion has always been (in PVE at least) that they're so closely tied with each other as to be kind of pointless. Mind you, I'm a tank so I'm not super interested in doing 2% more damage. I'm interested in Death Strike fluidity.

I actually prefer tiers like the Death's Advance one. I near always take Death Advance and sometimes end up with Chillblains but I feel like an actual choice is being made. The rune refresh tier is literally the only tier across all the classes I play that I literally don't know the names of the 3 abilities and what they do specifically off the top of my head. I picked one at the start of 5.0 and it hasn't mattered since. I literally had to log into check my Blood DK -- I'm using Runic Corruption.

Most boring talent tier ever.

[Deleted]

DW and 2h should play the same, and the play-style will be like a merged version of the current 2h and DW frost.
Reason for these changes:
- 2h and DW should play the same way and mostly be a cosmetic option

Huge No.
If it costs me getting occasionally trolled by KM proccing when my finger is already pressing the skill suboptimal for my current subspec, so be it.
Much rather this than even more dull homogenization.