So I asked in game if people know about no flying in WoD interesting responses

[Doomchicken]

That is not fact. It's opinion.

No where is there a guideline or a book of rules stating that raids need to be present in MMORPGs. In fact there are MMOs without them. Regardless of their success they're still in existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive...er_online_game

Again, you're NOT stating facts. You're misinformed on what an MMORPG is.

However, raiding is considered more important to the MMORPG genre as a whole by the developers. THAT is a fact. More MMORPG's have raiding in them than MMORPG's have flying mounts and flight. Which tbf is why this whole "reversal" argument is completely flawed.

If you want a more accurate comparison, you'd have a better chance of comparing flying to pet battles or something else that isn't considered by most developers to be "necessary."

[DarkArchon]

That is not fact. It's opinion.

No where is there a guideline or a book of rules stating that raids need to be present in MMORPGs. In fact there are MMOs without them. Regardless of their success they're still in existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive...er_online_game

Again, you're NOT stating facts. You're misinformed on what an MMORPG is.

Other MMO's are irrelevant it's the stable on which Blizzard choose to build on.

[jd5]

I don't get this obsession some of you have with wanting everything at lightning quick speeds, it doesn't append good game play.

One of the best changes their making this expansion.

"I don't get this obsession some of you have with wanting everything at super slow speeds, it doesn't append good game play.

One of the worst changes their making this expansion."


"Good game play" should be determined by the developers. They have the means to create the content for us and to keep us enthralled in it, no matter what means we have to avoid it (if that is someone's choice).

Slow, linear, fixed... these are terms designers should fear, because when you try to control too much the way people see and interact with content, you will lose them. Maybe not everyone, trust me I'm not here claiming WoW will die, but enough of them.

There are many that play WoW who see this as a fix for a problem and want it to happen, but while you may have your enjoyment in the short term, I (speaking only for me) don't think this is healthy for WoW. It's another change they have not thought through (again IMO), but they are too far behind the idea of a WoW-of-the-old-days to listen to anyone. This will not make people experience the world any more than they want to (and this is the key factor IMO). What I believe it will do is frustrate people, maybe not on the first run, but 2nd, 3rd, 4th... I have little doubts.

Sad, but I won't knock them for the overall product. I had lots & lots fun playing this game for many years.

We will see I guess... I think I'll wait until the dust settles, see what it looks like then (want to enjoy GTA on PC first any way this fall ).

[DarkArchon]

"I don't get this obsession some of you have with wanting everything at super slow speeds, it doesn't append good game play.

One of the worst changes their making this expansion."


"Good game play" should be determined by the developers. They have the means to create the content for us and to keep us enthralled in it, no matter what means we have to avoid it (if that is someone's choice).

Slow, linear, fixed... these are terms designers should fear, because when you try to control too much the way people see and interact with content, you will lose them. Maybe not everyone, trust me I'm not here claiming WoW will die, but enough of them.

There are many that play WoW who see this as a fix for a problem and want it to happen, but while you may have your enjoyment in the short term, I (speaking only for me) don't think this is healthy for WoW. It's another change they have not thought through (again IMO), but they are too far behind the idea of a WoW-of-the-old-days to listen to anyone. This will not make people experience the world any more than they want to (and this is the key factor IMO). What I believe it will do is frustrate people, maybe not on the first run, but 2nd, 3rd, 4th... I have little doubts.

Sad, but I won't knock them for the overall product. I had lots & lots fun playing this game for many years.

We will see I guess... I think I'll wait until the dust settles, see what it looks like then (want to enjoy GTA on PC first any way this fall ).

You totally misunderstood what i said... When i said one of the best changes their making this expansion, i meant removing flying.

[Destruktion]

And currently, Blizz doesn't want to add any checks. The problem is, they have a distinct opportunity now to add those checks to flying, but won't. This will ultimately hurt in the long run if they are required to add flying in with 6.1. They are letting this parade pass them by.

They've discussed briefly considerations they've made for "checks" and seemed to come to the conclusion that they were generally clunky or ineffective.
That's not to say there aren't alternative solutions to removing flight entirely in existence; there probably are, but apparently Blizzard isn't willing to explore them just yet. If no flying in WoD falls flat on its face, you can bet your left nut the next thing they will try is checking flying with nerfs and gameplay changes.

[gestapo]

Content should be compelling enough even with flight to make people want to be on the ground at least 80% of the time. Thoughtful design can achieve this and removing flight is not the answer.

I'm in favour of no flying in the first patch and bringing it into the game in 6.1 via epic quest chain

[CandyCotton Marshmallows]

Other MMO's are irrelevant it's the stable on which Blizzard choose to build on.

You want to cherry pick your definitions to support your -opinions- and try to dismiss everyone else's opinions.

Other MMOs are not irrelevant. Any stable MMO out there isn't. Many MMOs are successful now.

The argument was, remove other forms of raiding outside LFR, and you claim raiding is the foundation ... well, just like you can still travel on ground mounts (a lesser form of travel); then you would still be able to raid, even forming your own groups for the raid; just at a lesser level.

Raiding being the 'core' of the game for you, is purely opinion. Why do you think they have so much variety and constantly adding more? For the people who don't raid, nor do they have any desire to.

Here is the key you are missing, MMORPGs are not raiding sims; they are multiplayer online role-playing games. RPGs is the base of the genre, MMO is a modifier that simply explains you can play with a lot of people online. RPGs are about character development and the world your character exists in. You want to be a raider, killing the latest threats; some want to be an epic pet battler, training and caring for their champions; some like to collect the pets and mounts for vanity sake; some like chasing achievements; some are all about the lore and the WORLD (of warcraft), getting loremaster, farming mats, etc; some play for the economy, farming mats, crafting, playing the market; some strictly PvP, they live and breath in game for the challenge of fighting other people and besting them.

You cannot decide for others what the core of the game is. If it was only about raiding, you'd see even fewer subs. Very few, actually. Why do you think there are still 7 million right now with no real hope for fresh content until the end of the year with a 7 month old tier? All the non raiders and their non-raiding activities.


Now, your lack of empathy is the real issue in the discussion. People can understand that you love to raid. People try to give you examples to help you relate to why the issue of flight matters to them; but you lack the depth of character to even attempt to understand and respect anyone with a differing taste or opinion than you; even though your core focus is anti-MMORPG (instanced raids could be a lobby based game with no world to it; or small lobbies like PSU had). Flight is important (at max level) to a lot of people. Having an island or two doesn't negate the ability of flight overall since people can avoid those and still fly in the rest of the content.

Flying doesn't equal skipping everything ... it is about freedom and control. It is about sightseeing and bird's eye view. Nearly no one is asking for day one flight at 90 on draenor. They are looking for day 1 flight at 100, after they did all their questing in all the zones.


Blizz is going full on grind. This is why, 7 months into the tier, these legendary quest buffs are only a week or two long, not permanent. It is why they want you on the ground (and development cost reduction not having to worry about skybox or polish from all angles). Restrictions and grind are their current way to throttle you against fun.

I play other MMOs, they don't have flight. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate and respect the only MMO that has it in this form. It is a key feature -advantage- over other games of the like. I enjoy those other games, and with each restriction, with each removal, with each redesign, I get closer to leaving for good. I hate what they've done to a couple of my favored specs, I can't stand the direction they are going for mobility and cc, I don't think max level flight removal is a good idea, the stat squish is unnecessary, the gear is getting ridiculous and they ignore the plea for a hide (hideous) shoulders option, as well as many other things. Why do I keep resubbing for a month now and then? Because I LOVED the game in Wrath, I still want to love the game now; it has merit, but it pushes me away at nearly every turn.

People complaining and wanting things like max level flight left in, are people that enjoy the game and want to continue to enjoy the game. If you think raiding is what the game is about, then flight doesn't matter to you, and you should just support those who want it, because it doesn't hurt you (nor does it hurt those who can just not buy flight, and use their ground mounts, I've done it on my mage in Mists, it is fully possible to play without flight in Mists). There is no good reason to take away max level flight. The whole story about a guy in a stronghold is a quest; you do that while leveling, when you don't have flight anyway.


I think, in the end, this is going to push MORE people into sitting in the current city (or one of the others) or their garrison possibly. There will be less people in the world, because no one wants to wade through lowbie mobs dismounting them, basically killing trash on a constant basis, just to get from point A to point B.

Here, I'll give you something even better to get the RAIDERS in the world. Remove summoning altogether. They removed 'have group, will travel', now remove lock summoning portals (ability prune or make it do something else), and remove summoning stones in the world. Make -everyone- run to the instance outside LFR/LFG. You, the epic raider, will have to run across the zones on your ground mount, through mobs, to get to the instance. No waiting for summons.

[DarkArchon]

You want to cherry pick your definitions to support your -opinions- and try to dismiss everyone else's opinions.

Other MMOs are not irrelevant. Any stable MMO out there isn't. Many MMOs are successful now.

The argument was, remove other forms of raiding outside LFR, and you claim raiding is the foundation ... well, just like you can still travel on ground mounts (a lesser form of travel); then you would still be able to raid, even forming your own groups for the raid; just at a lesser level.

Raiding being the 'core' of the game for you, is purely opinion. Why do you think they have so much variety and constantly adding more? For the people who don't raid, nor do they have any desire to.

Here is the key you are missing, MMORPGs are not raiding sims; they are multiplayer online role-playing games. RPGs is the base of the genre, MMO is a modifier that simply explains you can play with a lot of people online. RPGs are about character development and the world your character exists in. You want to be a raider, killing the latest threats; some want to be an epic pet battler, training and caring for their champions; some like to collect the pets and mounts for vanity sake; some like chasing achievements; some are all about the lore and the WORLD (of warcraft), getting loremaster, farming mats, etc; some play for the economy, farming mats, crafting, playing the market; some strictly PvP, they live and breath in game for the challenge of fighting other people and besting them.

You cannot decide for others what the core of the game is. If it was only about raiding, you'd see even fewer subs. Very few, actually. Why do you think there are still 7 million right now with no real hope for fresh content until the end of the year with a 7 month old tier? All the non raiders and their non-raiding activities.


Now, your lack of empathy is the real issue in the discussion. People can understand that you love to raid. People try to give you examples to help you relate to why the issue of flight matters to them; but you lack the depth of character to even attempt to understand and respect anyone with a differing taste or opinion than you; even though your core focus is anti-MMORPG (instanced raids could be a lobby based game with no world to it; or small lobbies like PSU had). Flight is important (at max level) to a lot of people. Having an island or two doesn't negate the ability of flight overall since people can avoid those and still fly in the rest of the content.

Flying doesn't equal skipping everything ... it is about freedom and control. It is about sightseeing and bird's eye view. Nearly no one is asking for day one flight at 90 on draenor. They are looking for day 1 flight at 100, after they did all their questing in all the zones.


Blizz is going full on grind. This is why, 7 months into the tier, these legendary quest buffs are only a week or two long, not permanent. It is why they want you on the ground (and development cost reduction not having to worry about skybox or polish from all angles). Restrictions and grind are their current way to throttle you against fun.

I play other MMOs, they don't have flight. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate and respect the only MMO that has it in this form. It is a key feature -advantage- over other games of the like. I enjoy those other games, and with each restriction, with each removal, with each redesign, I get closer to leaving for good. I hate what they've done to a couple of my favored specs, I can't stand the direction they are going for mobility and cc, I don't think max level flight removal is a good idea, the stat squish is unnecessary, the gear is getting ridiculous and they ignore the plea for a hide (hideous) shoulders option, as well as many other things. Why do I keep resubbing for a month now and then? Because I LOVED the game in Wrath, I still want to love the game now; it has merit, but it pushes me away at nearly every turn.

People complaining and wanting things like max level flight left in, are people that enjoy the game and want to continue to enjoy the game. If you think raiding is what the game is about, then flight doesn't matter to you, and you should just support those who want it, because it doesn't hurt you (nor does it hurt those who can just not buy flight, and use their ground mounts, I've done it on my mage in Mists, it is fully possible to play without flight in Mists). There is no good reason to take away max level flight. The whole story about a guy in a stronghold is a quest; you do that while leveling, when you don't have flight anyway.


I think, in the end, this is going to push MORE people into sitting in the current city (or one of the others) or their garrison possibly. There will be less people in the world, because no one wants to wade through lowbie mobs dismounting them, basically killing trash on a constant basis, just to get from point A to point B.

Here, I'll give you something even better to get the RAIDERS in the world. Remove summoning altogether. They removed 'have group, will travel', now remove lock summoning portals (ability prune or make it do something else), and remove summoning stones in the world. Make -everyone- run to the instance outside LFR/LFG. You, the epic raider, will have to run across the zones on your ground mount, through mobs, to get to the instance. No waiting for summons.

The games core values and what their trying to accomplish is more important then your ''birds eye view''. Literally every single thing you named can be done from the ground. You have no real argument. All i keep hearing from people that share your opinion is ''freedom'' ''sightseeing'' a open ended view and apprant preference that can't be properly argued because it has a multiple and universal meaning. With or without flying you have full freedom within reason as well as sightseeing. Only real concern you seem to have is what you like and your preference without caring about the bigger picture or the repercussions that come with what you prefer.

And the best part, your second part of the discussion you believe the game will not benefit from this because you believe the majority of people don't enjoy experiencing or playing the game. Your example was also very exaggerated... There is zero way you'll ever get dismounted if your half paying attention and also will be straight as arrow flight paths. So once again were back to the only thing you really have left to base your opinion....''Sightseeing'' and This majestic eternal freedom that you apparently get when flying from Point A too Point B. We all know how truly amazing it is and engaging and always fully alert and in no way zoned out normally when flying. /endofbullshit

If what your saying is actually true and you enjoy venturing then you would know it's the journey/effort on how you got there that counts. Flying diminishes that in almost every way. So maybe this is just a mask the fact your real only concern is you don't want to lose the convenience.

Here's a actual example in reality and what it really is.. You enjoy birds eye view. Ok sure that's great. That's not what WoW is, get it threw your head. Also not their focus, not now not never and a niche feature you like should never be catered too and expanded upon, to do so would drastically change the way in which the game is both approached and experienced all for something that isn't even a main feature or core component of the game. To do so would be complete insanity. I get your opinion and understand you like that feature, doesn't mean it should stay and you liking it doesn't make it the correct decision overall.

[Bacon is the Answer]

The reverse stage doesn't work because raiding is a crucial and pinnacle part of any MMO while flying is not. Raiding supports the MMO formula and game play intended while flying mounts goes against it. A tool used largely to avoid social and game play interactions. Flying sabotages it's own identity as a MMO and the philosophy and intent when new content is added.

That would be your opinion. In my opinion, hardcore raiders, elitists, and asshole PvPers have ruined this game. It's an RPG, so when I play the role of my character in this mass multiplayer online, I have to contend with people who are not playing their character, but rather just grinding some progression wheel, all the while telling me that MY style of gaming is horrid, and I should "kill myself and uninstall". The raid scenario DOES work, on several levels, but your avoidance of the answer only lends more veracity to the weight of my statement that to some of us, flying is an essential part of how we play Warcraft. Taking away flying for us, what we use as a tool in our end game, would be like removing raiding for you, and leaving you with LFR, Dungeons, and Challenge Modes (ground mounts, flight paths, or walking).

- - - Updated - - -

They've discussed briefly considerations they've made for "checks" and seemed to come to the conclusion that they were generally clunky or ineffective.
That's not to say there aren't alternative solutions to removing flight entirely in existence; there probably are, but apparently Blizzard isn't willing to explore them just yet. If no flying in WoD falls flat on its face, you can bet your left nut the next thing they will try is checking flying with nerfs and gameplay changes.

At which point, they could have just done that in the first place to avoid most of the chaos in 4 different threads. I suspect they will be too busy making an omlette from the egg on their face to even offer any sort of apology if it falls REALLY hard.

[PrairieChicken]

That would be your opinion. In my opinion, hardcore raiders, elitists, and asshole PvPers have ruined this game. It's an RPG, so when I play the role of my character in this mass multiplayer online, I have to contend with people who are not playing their character, but rather just grinding some progression wheel, all the while telling me that MY style of gaming is horrid, and I should "kill myself and uninstall". The raid scenario DOES work, on several levels, but your avoidance of the answer only lends more veracity to the weight of my statement that to some of us, flying is an essential part of how we play Warcraft. Taking away flying for us, what we use as a tool in our end game, would be like removing raiding for you, and leaving you with LFR, Dungeons, and Challenge Modes (ground mounts, flight paths, or walking).

You just admitted the fact that flying is merely a TOOL, not a content itself. It is nowhere near removing raiding or other forms of content.

[Osmeric]

At which point, they could have just done that in the first place to avoid most of the chaos in 4 different threads.

Apparently, you live on a planet where programming is free.

[ckb1978]

I honestly don't understand why people are upset about flying being "removed" from wod for alittle while during the expansion OR even for the whole expansion

9 years ago I started playing wow
first mount you needed to be LVL 40 (40% speed) and have 90g for the mount back then 90g WAS a a lot off gold to have
then lvl 60 you got to get the 100% land mount speed which u needed around nearly 200g
the lvl 70 you got flying mounts I cant remember but I think it was a rather large amount to get to learn it and buy the mounts

TODAYS players have it to easy in getting mounts
but they will "most likely do in my opinion" is no flying until 100 then they might inject into the game pay XXXX amount for flying

but im sure most the wow community will start complaining about having to spend XXXX amount on learning to fly

IN my honest opinion in WOD please "DO NOT" give us flying mounts get people back out exploring the world again instead of getting to lvl 100 then afking in major cities all day atm in game all you see in game on busy servers is hundreds and hundreds of people on mounts afk in major cities

have a nice day

[Bacon is the Answer]

You just admitted the fact that flying is merely a TOOL, not a content itself. It is nowhere near removing raiding or other forms of content.

Raiding is a TOOL used to get gear.

- - - Updated - - -

Apparently, you live on a planet where programming is free.

No, I live on this one loaded with snarky responses. As for my initial statement, the only reason flying is a "concern" for them is because of how it trivializes the content. If they balanced flying, so it was no longer trivial, these threads never would have existed. As for programming being "free", their $900M in net profit shows they are not hurting financially and could afford to spend $5k balancing flight (as an example, for one guy to spend two weeks lowering the skybox and removing all speeds above 60%).

[Deleted]

I honestly don't understand why people are upset about flying being "removed" from wod for alittle while during the expansion OR even for the whole expansion

9 years ago I started playing wow
first mount you needed to be LVL 40 (40% speed) and have 90g for the mount back then 90g WAS a a lot off gold to have
then lvl 60 you got to get the 100% land mount speed which u needed around nearly 200g
the lvl 70 you got flying mounts I cant remember but I think it was a rather large amount to get to learn it and buy the mounts

TODAYS players have it to easy in getting mounts
but they will "most likely do in my opinion" is no flying until 100 then they might inject into the game pay XXXX amount for flying

but im sure most the wow community will start complaining about having to spend XXXX amount on learning to fly

IN my honest opinion in WOD please "DO NOT" give us flying mounts get people back out exploring the world again instead of getting to lvl 100 then afking in major cities all day atm in game all you see in game on busy servers is hundreds and hundreds of people on mounts afk in major cities

have a nice day

why do you think removing flying mounts will get people back out into the world, rather than afk in cities? removing flying mounts doesn't create compelling content out in the world that will make people go out into it.

[ckb1978]

that's there whole idea take away flying get people back out exploring doing lots of other things tbh garrisons will take up a lot of peoples times with numerous 90s doing it and all there alt 90s

[jd5]

You totally misunderstood what i said... When i said one of the best changes their making this expansion, i meant removing flying.

No I understood what you were saying, I just used your quote to make light of the fact I don't think removing flight is good or will help any of the issues people have with it.

Players who want to speed thru content, avoid combat, etc., will continue to do so. They will just find a way.

The only end result is what I (and some) believe Blizzard wants, which is to slow down consumption for everyone by artificial means (because making compelling content, where we want to explore it, is apparently hard). They have all the tools in which to manage us, but still leave us the illusion of freedom, and they chose the easy option (IMO). Sure it takes extra work, but most times when that work is done those games become (and remain) popular amongst it fans.

The funny part is I don't "hate" Blizzard, I just don't agree with this (cop-out) direction they have chosen for this expansion. Like I said tho', I will observe and see how it plays out. If it works, and things get better I will be the first to raise my hand and say they were right... I just don't think that will be the case.

[PrairieChicken]

Raiding is a TOOL used to get gear.

Raiding = Content

Flying =/ Content

[jd5]

that's there whole idea take away flying get people back out exploring doing lots of other things tbh garrisons will take up a lot of peoples times with numerous 90s doing it and all there alt 90s

Mounts (flying or ground) don't explore, people do.

If a player skipped over content before this expansion, they will *not* suddenly become world explorers.

Cities already have LFR, LFD, Battleground + Arena queues, etc., add to the Garrisons (which will collect mats for you), and people now have even less of a reason the leave the city (especially if they don't like moving around at 100% speed, with whatever linear paths will be in place to corral us).

I have also been in this game long enough to remember questing / walking thru Descolace or Arathi (with Hammerfall in the top right corner of the map)... I'm sorry these are not fond memories. Travel has improved the game.

[Bacon is the Answer]

Raiding = Content

Flying =/ Content

Raiding is a feature of WoW
Flying is a feature of WoW

Raiding is a Tool to get gear
Flying is a Tool of convenience

Raiding is content consumed by Raiders
Flying is content consumed by fliers and flying mount collectors

Your game =/= My game

- - - Updated - - -

If a player skipped over content before this expansion, they will *not* suddenly become world explorers.

If a player skipped over content before this expansion, they will *not* suddenly become involved in ground mounts.
If a player skipped over content before this expansion, they will *not* suddenly become interested in quest hubs.
If a player skipped over content before this expansion, they will *not* suddenly become active in world PvP.
If a player skipped over content before this expansion, they will *not* suddenly become eager to leave the city and try new things.

If a player skipped over content before this expansion, they will keep playing their game, their way, somehow.

[PrairieChicken]

Raiding is a feature of WoW
Flying is a feature of WoW

Raiding is a Tool to get gear
Flying is a Tool of convenience

Raiding is content consumed by Raiders
Flying is content consumed by fliers and flying mount collectors

Your game =/= My game

Yes let's make the entire game barren wasteland and delete everything except flying. We will reach 12 million subs because people play the game to fly.

Flying was never reason people played wow. If people played game to fly they would have gone to much better flying simulators