Should previous dungeon/raid content be mandatory?

[Nobleshield]

No way. I for one don't want to ever have the situation of being stuck a tier or two below "current" without any real way to escape it short of guild hopping. As someone said early on part if the issue with requiring catch-up mechanics is that there's such a jump in iLevel between tiers - if it was much lower then you would not have a problem with it, as there wouldn't be such a huge disparity between them.

Telling people "Sorry, you need to spend time on X and Y content to see Z" isn't going to win anyone over.

[Tharkkun]

This is how raid progression has worked since the start of Wrath.

Actually it changed when Black Temple and Hyjal attunements were lifted and badge of justice gear provided Tier 6 like items. That was the first experiment in catchup.

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It's supposedly also to preserve "server communities", in that if you're on a GOOD server like Mal'Ganis/Illidan/etc; and on the correct faction (Horde), you EARNED the right to raid. Whereas if you're on a dead realm/faction, you DON'T DESERVE to raid because you chose the shit faction/realm and that it's YOUR fault for not doing research beforehand. Maybe that would also apply to cross-realm raiding with OQueue and the like as well.

So your ability to raid should be based on the RNG of what server you picked 10 years ago? Nor should your raiding be limited based on how much $$$$ you have in your wallet to transfer servers. That's definitely the view of the 1% raider who likes to control how others play the game. Unfortunately they lost the ability to restrict content from lesser players years ago.

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I think you got a bit lost there. I doubt you've forgotten that "Flex" will just be "Normal" come 6.0 and thus not "equal to LFR."

I definitely did.

[Frolk]

no, no no and NO, also Blizzard want ppl to enjoy CURRENT content, thats why we have timeless isle tokens

[Zka]

Did you ever experience a crucial role player, i.e. a tank or a healer, jumping ship to another guild to progress further?

Unless you're in the top 1%, everyone is pretty easy to replace. Especially since we have dual spec.
Ps: if you are in the top 1% at least you won't struggle finding applicants.

[nekobaka]

Did you ever experience a crucial role player, i.e. a tank or a healer, jumping ship to another guild to progress further?

Players still do that now. Guild hopping and poaching isnt something only seen when there are attunements.

[Raelbo]

Players still do that now. Guild hopping and poaching isnt something only seen when there are attunements.

Yes, but the difference today is that such a practice isn't nearly as devastating because it doesn't send the entire guild back 2 whole tiers - and this it thanks to the catch up mechanisms.

[Deleted]

Yes, but the difference today is that such a practice isn't nearly as devastating because it doesn't send the entire guild back 2 whole tiers - and this it thanks to the catch up mechanisms.

You are right, partly. Catch up mechanics ensure that a person will find gear easily BUT, if it wasn't for LFR to give free loot, you would see even less players running raids. Unless you count LFR as a catch up mechanic. In short terms, it is easier for guilds to replace raid members because now there are more people raiding than ever before due to how easy it has become.

[Darrowshire]

Absolutely. But it'll never happen because of fucking whiny casuals who refuse to do anything but the latest content for their free epics

[Mekkle]

I like grindy stuff, but Aint nobody got time fo' dat.

[Raelbo]

I think the most likely reason is they quit WoW because Blizzard stopped supporting their playstyle and tried to replace it with some minority playstyle that they previously had no interest in, and still have no interest in.

While I agree with your ultimate conclusion here, I don't see how it refutes anything I have said. What I do disagree with though is the way you phrase it to make it sound like this was a mistake whereas a far more pragmatic way of looking at it is that this is an unfortunate and unavoidable part of being an MMO.

Computer games have a very limited shelf life. People play the game, experience the content and then need to move on to something new. If the game doesn't keep changing people will get bored of it. Unfortunately with a massively diverse playerbase not every change will be to everyone's liking. That which makes the game better for the vast majority will still be something which makes the game worse for a small minority. With every iteration there will always be some small minority that is left unsatisfied and over time these minorities start to add up to a large portion of the playerbase.

Now while many might argue that it was stupid of Blizzard to make the changes that alienated these players, it is an argument that lacks any kind of insight because the reality is that this large group of players didn't all leave because of the same set of changes. Each left for a very specific set of reasons that, had Blizzard taken some other option, would simply have resulted in someone else leaving.

I don't know why people assume that raiding is so popular. It's not.

Raiding is pretty popular. In January MMO-C did a massive survey and found that about 2/3 of players had at least participated in raiding at some level.

But when Blizzard ignore parts of the game which used to be hugely popular and focus all of their efforts on raiding, which has never been popular among the majority of players, I think it's fairly clear why people aren't interested in playing a game which clearly isn't aimed at them any more.

Blizzard don't only focus on raiding. There is a huge variety of new content for all sorts of players - more so than I can ever recall. And the same principles still apply here anyway - players will consume non-raid content and get bored of it too. Without new content, I would have stopped playing WoW years ago, and I am pretty certain the same applies to just about everyone who plays the game.

I have played and greatly enjoyed many games in my lifetime, but I don't play them any more for the same reason that I don't watch the same movie or read the same book or listen to the same song every day. It doesn't mean I no longer like those games or movies or books or songs, but just because I liked it the first time does not mean I want to keep repeating it. A big part of the enjoyment of such things is the process of experiencing something new.

[Deleted]

IMHO, raiding is the only thing in WoW that seems "EPIC" and motivates players to unite with a common goal to take down some villain or "evil". Even the questing/level content seems to point towards the raids.

Different players are motivated by different things, and there used to be a lot more to do in the game aside from raiding - even for those who did spend their time in a raid. Although a far larger chunk of the player base didn't ever really care about reaching 'the end' - many players didn't even spend their time at maximum level, letalone chasing final bosses.

The thing is, WoW has never been a game about raiding - If MoP shows anything, it's that raiding alone just doesn't provide anywhere near enough content or longevity for anybody.

Raid instances only account for a tiny chunk of the total environment space in the game - the only relevant content in the game at the moment is a 14-boss raid instance; players running that once or twice a week since the release of 5.4 were bored with it after a couple of months, and once again found themselves with nothing else to do because the game didn't have any alternative relevant content for them - even on fresh L90 alt characters, the only thing to do is to jump into that same instance and repeat the same bosses.

If you look back at Classic, TBC or WotLK (even the year-long ICC patch), players had a lot more relevant content than we've got at the moment. Those who were running ICC with their main character tended to spend time in dungeons and previous-tier raids on their alt characters, and people tended to spend more time in levelling content too.

Having raiding as an endgame goal is fine, but it's stopped being just an endgame goal and turned into the sole focus of everything in the game for all players - even those who traditionally didn't care much for raiding aren't being catered for because the raid instances have obsoleted the rest of the content from the expansion.

So then what other aspects are more popular in WoW that I'm somehow missing?

Raid content only ever accounted for a small chunk of the total environment space, and they were originally designed to just provide an ending to a massive game - the game itself tended to be elsewhere, in the other 90% of the content; much of it in the outdoor world, but a lot of it also in dungeons, and tied together with game systems like quests, professions, or other objectives.

The problem in MoP is that the other 90% of the game doesn't really count for anything any more - where the catch-up mechanisms are designed to provide a super-easy-convenient way of skipping the huge chunks of earlier content; all of the content we had from 5.0-5.3 has its depth taken away. WoW has really just become one big "ending" without having the rest of the game to provide an ending for.

[Deleted]

There have been many threads which argue that older content should not be rendered obsolete by catch up mechanics of a new patch. There are people however who say that if it weren't for the catch up mechanics, many players wouldn't stay in the game. So, what if the completion of previous raid tiers was mandatory for players to progress to the current tier? Maybe there could be a system that awarded players automatically gear for their class/spec if they were in an older tier, so that they don't have to do it more than 1-2 times.

Would you be in favor of a system like this?

Players keep playing as long as they can progress. Catch up patches are fine, not the way it's now though rendering everything before obsolete. Here comes nagging old me again....TBC had the model I liked the most, people could progress as fast or slow they wanted. The only thing I'd change is account wide attunements.

[lawow74]

No, there should be a catch-up mechanic when it comes to the final tier of a content cycle. Prior to that, a few little gimmes like questable epics to give you a small boost are good, as is a slow replacement mechanic like the Battlefield: Barrens was in 5.3. Again I think about the Forum Raiders In Real Life comic linked in my sig when I read stuff about forcing people to do everything others did to play the game.

[Deleted]

While I agree with your ultimate conclusion here, I don't see how it refutes anything I have said. What I do disagree with though is the way you phrase it to make it sound like this was a mistake whereas a far more pragmatic way of looking at it is that this is an unfortunate and unavoidable part of being an MMO.

I think we're talking past each other on different points really.

Yes of course, WoW needs to evolve, and it has evolved - but there is a key difference between a whole new expansion release which happens every 2 years, compared with a minor patch release which happens every 4-6 months.

I have no problem with Blizzard using the reset button when they're raising the level cap, releasing a whole new continent, containing hundreds of hours of gameplay, questlines, storylines, loads of new dungeons, etc. The issue is when we barely make it 4-5 months into that expansion only to find that the journey and enjoyment provided by a lot of that content gets squished down into a quick synopsis and replaced by something a lot less substantial.

Raiding is pretty popular. In January MMO-C did a massive survey and found that about 2/3 of players had at least participated in raiding at some level.

The content is (or more likely, the rewards are) popular of course, but 'Raiding' being a certain playstyle which is focused around progression through the current tier/endgame, is nowhere near as popular. The fact that the game survived for so long without the majority of players even being to access that content should indicate that most of those players were never really interested in reaching that current-tier endgame in the first place. In fact there used to be ways of getting equally powerful raid-equivalent rewards which were also popular from running 5-man dungeons.

Another way to look at it is like a book - Imagine being handed a complete copy of Lord of the Rings, and then finding that all but the final few chapters have been torn out, replaced with a double-sided sheet which condenses down the entire plot of the entire book up to the point where Frodo reaches mount doom. You read the quick synopsis (it takes you less than 5 minutes), and then you read the rest of the chapters in-full, knowing everything which happened before, but not having personally experienced the real depth of the rest of the book.

There are of course, some people who don't care about the depth/filler which occupies the rest of the book, and they just want to reach the end ASAP. Some people even like to read the ending to a book and then go back and read the rest of it afterwards, But a lot of people don't want to have the book summarised, and are more interested in the real depth and journey contained within the book - the ending is just that; an ending which finishes the epic journey. BUt without the epic journey beforehand, the ending itself is rather bland and uninteresting.

Blizzard don't only focus on raiding. There is a huge variety of new content for all sorts of players - more so than I can ever recall. And the same principles still apply here anyway - players will consume non-raid content and get bored of it too. Without new content, I would have stopped playing WoW years ago, and I am pretty certain the same applies to just about everyone who plays the game.

The problem is there isn't any relevant content - None of the dungeons, scenarios or anything on mainland Pandaria really has any relevance when catch-up mechanisms on Timeless isle and LFR SoO provide such quick/easy/convenient access to better progression and rewards - same with MsV/HoF/ToES/TOT. Pet battles aren't really relevant to anything either. Even the first reward from the legendary quest chain is rather useless.

Sure the content still exists, but it's relegated down to the same levels of irrelevance as solo'ing ICC for transmog or running Firelands for a mount - the depth has been removed because the process to outgear that content is so amazingly fast from the catch-up mechanisms.

Overall it's just a lack of Longevity. We have more content but less depth, and it takes much less time to burn through that content and exhaust the gameplay. Which might be stating the obvious somewhat, but there's an important difference between having catch-up mechanisms which let you skip an entire expansion's worth of content in a few hours, versus catch-up mechanisms which provide a small boost for those who are lacking behind.

I think Blizzard overlook the fact that the catch-up mechanisms themselves previously required players to put in a lot of time before they could truly "skip" the content, along with the fact we used to have heroic dungeons lasting 2+ hours, and outdoor progression quests which would take players many hours of gameplay time to complete - yes, some of those quest objectives were terribly tedious, but they were a lot more relevant than grinding for vanity items.

[Mormolyce]

Frankly I don't know why anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

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Absolutely. But it'll never happen because of fucking whiny casuals who refuse to do anything but the latest content for their free epics

Yawn.

You realise that if you're not a "whiny casual" this has zero impact on you because presumably you already have all the stuff you need from the last tier before the next one launches?

[nekobaka]

Absolutely. But it'll never happen because of fucking whiny casuals who refuse to do anything but the latest content for their free epics

Meanwhile some of the most vocal whiny "casuals" are asocial no-lifers hiding behind the casual label which sadly in turn gives casuals a bad reputation. Just as people will remember dbag "raiders" will players remember dbag "casuals" who grief groups thinking their 15 bucks entitles them carries from other customers. It is just a minority ruining the enjoyment of a majority.

But it was quite silly that many refused to do nerfed T11 which was ToC difficulty and yet players happily ran ToC all the way to the end of WotLK. Instead they would rather run those heroics which they previously claimed was "too hard for casuals" except are doing just fine.

[Raelbo]

The issue is when we barely make it 4-5 months into that expansion only to find that the journey and enjoyment provided by a lot of that content gets squished down into a quick synopsis and replaced by something a lot less substantial.

Everything that was there is still there. It hasn't been replaced. It is simply that an alternative, quicker, method of obtaining gear that has been provided, with the objective of being able to share the journey with everyone else instead of being left behind.

The content is (or more likely, the rewards are) popular of course, but 'Raiding' being a certain playstyle which is focused around progression through the current tier/endgame, is nowhere near as popular.

True, but then again the whole point of this thread was about the ability to skip raid tiers. Hence why I have focussed my discussion on raiding.

The fact that the game survived for so long without the majority of players even being to access that content should indicate that most of those players were never really interested in reaching that current-tier endgame in the first place. In fact there used to be ways of getting equally powerful raid-equivalent rewards which were also popular from running 5-man dungeons.

The game has always been about progression. The point of progression is to keep moving to more difficult content, of which raiding has always been the pinnacle. Granted, it wasn't until WotLK that most players started becoming interested in actually getting to raiding, but that is because the journey to get to that point took many of the people doing it a long time.

In short, it's about inertia. The community started out with very little, and it took a long time to build that inertia to propel raiding into the popular domain. But now that it is there, you can't expect people to go back, and you can't expect new people joining the game to go through a 3 year journey when really, most people want to stick with the crowd.

Another way to look at it is like a book - Imagine being handed a complete copy of Lord of the Rings, and then finding that all but the final few chapters have been torn out, replaced with a double-sided sheet which condenses down the entire plot of the entire book up to the point where Frodo reaches mount doom. You read the quick synopsis (it takes you less than 5 minutes), and then you read the rest of the chapters in-full, knowing everything which happened before, but not having personally experienced the real depth of the rest of the book.

This analogy is very poorly executed. It's a good analogy, but it fails to map well to the scenario we are talking about. Here is a better one:

Imagine joining a group of people who are doing a group reading of Lord of the Rings. They get together once a week and read a chapter and then discuss it over coffee and cakes before going home. They have been doing this for a year and are at the point where Frodo reaches mount doom.

They give you the entire book. They also give you a synopsis which condenses the first 90% of the book down to 5 pages. You have a choice: Read the entire book on your own first, which will take you a long time during which you won't be able to participate with the rest of the group, or read the synopsis and start participating in the group. You still have the option of course to go and read the book properly in your own time if you are so inclined.

This is the reality of WoW. Most of the players have read the entire book. They don't want to go back and spend weeks redoing all the older chapters for the benefit of the new guy.

There are of course, some people who don't care about the depth/filler which occupies the rest of the book, and they just want to reach the end ASAP. Some people even like to read the ending to a book and then go back and read the rest of it afterwards, But a lot of people don't want to have the book summarised, and are more interested in the real depth and journey contained within the book - the ending is just that; an ending which finishes the epic journey. BUt without the epic journey beforehand, the ending itself is rather bland and uninteresting.

As I said a few posts back, the game is designed for players to go through the entire journey. And most of us have done so over the course of the last ten years. However this does present a problem for people who haven't been along for that journey, and the question is how to ensure that they can enjoy their journey without negatively affecting the rest of us. The problem isn't the catch up mechanisms. The problem is the people who weren't around for that part of the journey, and the catch up mechanisms are simply the best way to deal with the problem.

The problem is there isn't any relevant content - None of the dungeons, scenarios or anything on mainland Pandaria really has any relevance when catch-up mechanisms on Timeless isle and LFR SoO provide such quick/easy/convenient access to better progression and rewards - same with MsV/HoF/ToES/TOT.

The point you seem to miss is that the content was relevant for all of us who were around when it current. We got to enjoy it to its full potential and used it up. Sure for new players, they can just skip that content if they want to. Their choice.

Overall it's just a lack of Longevity. We have more content but less depth, and it takes much less time to burn through that content and exhaust the gameplay.

Or maybe we have simply become that much more adept at burning through the content quickly because of years of experience of playing the game?

Which might be stating the obvious somewhat, but there's an important difference between having catch-up mechanisms which let you skip an entire expansion's worth of content in a few hours, versus catch-up mechanisms which provide a small boost for those who are lacking behind.

The objective is to make sure that people aren't being excluded from group play for protracted periods of time because everyone else is months or years of progression ahead of them.

I think Blizzard overlook the fact that the catch-up mechanisms themselves previously required players to put in a lot of time before they could truly "skip" the content, along with the fact we used to have heroic dungeons lasting 2+ hours, and outdoor progression quests which would take players many hours of gameplay time to complete - yes, some of those quest objectives were terribly tedious, but they were a lot more relevant than grinding for vanity items.

The huge difference between now and then is that the people doing those heroic dungeons and progression quests were in a similar spot to most of the other players around them.

That is not the case anymore.

[kail]

Mandatory? No. But I do wish older content could get bumped in terms of viability for gearing. Since Wrath, old raid tiers from the same XPac are a near waste of time if you want to gear quickly.

The iLv difference shouldn't be extremely different, this has caused the need for item squish.

My own idea is opening older tiers (maybe 2 tiers down from current) to be playable with a group of 5 and would be scaled as such. The gear would be nearly the same and players would have the option of clearing it without the hassle of finding 9+ others to go through the older content. This gives an option to those who want to go through a longer session of dungeon clearing, kinda like BRD. I can't see anyone complaining since T14 is pretty much collecting dust.

[Deleted]

You realise that if you're not a "whiny casual" this has zero impact on you because presumably you already have all the stuff you need from the last tier before the next one launches?

Casuals have all the stuff they need too. LFR gear is more than enough to go to the next LFR tier.

[zorkuus]

Casuals have all the stuff they need too. LFR gear is more than enough to go to the next LFR tier.

I don't think you even know what the term casual means. Casual =/= they only want to do LFR.