Thoughts on Unions

[Raeph]

Yeah, but what of the businesses that can't start out of a garage?

A profitable one?

Make money, provide for your family/heirs, expand your influence and resolve customer issues. A business can do that with 1-5 employee's. How do I know? Look at the average size of an Android or Apple app development company.

[Daez]

Yeah, but what of the businesses that can't start out of a garage? You can't even think of competing with Intel or AMD without a massive factory and huge output. There are a ton of industries where "out of their garage with a marketable skill set" just doesn't cut it. Do we give those industries free passes to pay absurdly low wages?

You don't need to compete with a huge company to make a nice profit. You just need to tackle an area where they are currently not really going or not really going well. I dare say a great deal of technicians would make more money doing computer repair than what they are paid at these large companies considering they were in a larger area.

[klogaroth]

Because the only way unions can function is through automatic enrollment and forced membership? Without those two concepts the union does not really exist. No one is going to willingly just hand over $100 a month in union dues while receiving nothing for it. What is worse is when you have "Right to Work" legislation in its current form. It allows people to join the union but not pay union dues... that means they receive the benefits of the union without paying for them.

Plenty of unions work without forced membership. A lot of the time it's when a union is responsible for collective bargaining. If you're not in the union you don't get to vote on pay deal options. Plus they try and get other sorts of stuff like a cheap deal on gym membership or some other additional thing to market themselves.

You end up with an exceptionally strong union if you have optional membership but a very high enrolment rate. The employer then knows that what they are getting is a good representation of a workforce that cares enough about whatever issues are on the table to voluntarily sign up to a union.

[Templar 331]

Sorry, what you suggest doesn't pass the logic test.

You're under the assumption that there are jobs waiting for those that leave theirs. We have people graduating college with degrees that can't find jobs in the sectors they trained for. And what if all companies in that sector drop to a similar wage? You wouldn't be able to leave your job for a better one if there wasn't a better one.

Also if unions disappeared, we'd still have federal and state level regulations requiring certain levels of compensation.

And what if those get cut? There are politicians out there that tout how the "free market" will regulate everything. It would be a major step backwards without unions being in place to protect certain jobs.

Sorry, what you suggest doesn't pass the life experience test.

[Naxere]

And then this little bit your "highlights" skips over.

Which packages in a referendum on repealing the minimum wage.

Please, point out anywhere in the bill where it talks about abolishing the minimum wage. It shouldn't be difficult, there's only two parts in the bill.

[Rukh]

Unions are a necessary thing. I wouldn't go so far as an "evil".

Nowadays the work great to scare companies in to giving their workers proper compensation and benefit. Companies can claim all the want how horrible they are, and that they don't work etc etc, but they are working even when the company doesn't have one.

[Raeph]

You're under the assumption that there are jobs waiting for those that leave theirs. We have people graduating college with degrees that can't find jobs in the sectors they trained for. And what if all companies in that sector drop to a similar wage? You wouldn't be able to leave your job for a better one if there wasn't a better one.

You are under the assumption that a person with a marketable vocational skill equals a person who dumped 60k on getting a worthless unmarketable degree.

An art major isn't equal to a electrical engineer, large engine mechanic, CDL driver or network specialist. The sooner that society stops lying to teenagers and college students the better.

[Hraklea]

And what if all companies in that sector drop to a similar wage?

Then 1 company would raise their wages, hire the best employees from the competitors (who pay less) and get a higher profit due a higher quality product.

[Tradewind]

I like when unions protect their workers interests when they're being clearly railroaded up the shitter by their employers. I dislike when Unions protect terrible and apathetic workers (ie. some teachers...) from being let go because of tenure.

[Twoddle]

Rather pointless in my experience. All our union leader ever did was agree to everything the bosses said. We were promised higher pay but he never fought for it or anything.

[Citizen T]

Private sector unions I have no problems with. I loathe public sector unions though.

I agree with this.

[Attackrabbit]

Because the only way unions can function is through automatic enrollment and forced membership? Without those two concepts the union does not really exist.

Strange. I've been in a few unions and also worked a few jobs and said 'no thanks' when asked if I wanted to join the union for whatever I was doing at the time but I've never ever come across a union that had automatic enrollment and forced membership.
Guess things are different in the 'Land of the Free' though

[Nihilan]

Corrupt unions are one of the primary reasons the US auto industry imploded in Detroit Michigan. Ridiculous amounts of graft , bribery, and laziness led to an incompetent and massively self entitled workforce. For decades, the phrase "American Made Cars" was synonymous with "Junk." Manufacturers began closing plants, or moving production to other, union-free areas and not only did product quality increase, but profits did as well.

And with the car industry gone, Detroit has devolved into what appears to be a third world nation inside US borders.

It is only in the last decade that American made automobiles have begin to reclaim their reputation as "well made." Even then the government had to step in and bail out the industry with billions in loans and strict limitations set upon union power within the industry.

Not that i am claiming that all unions are bad, but they must face rigorous regulation to prevent a repeat of the absurd abuses that took place in Detroit.

[edit for typos]

[Kellhound]

I am ok with unions in principle, there are some that are WAY out of hand in the US though (ILWU needs to be disbanded).
However, no union contract should allow a union shop, no union dues should go to political activities (they can ask for donations for that though), no union should be required to support non-union members, unions should not act as gatekeepers to the profession (IBEW), and honestly, wages (unless the employer wants to lower them) should not be a strike reason. And no public unions should exist, period.

[Adam Jensen]

Unions are sometimes needed as a check on management, but someone's gotta keep a check on the unions.

[Mihalik]

Of course there needs to be a balance, but people have no idea how much they actually owe to Unions, everything from living wages, child labor ban, 8 hour work shifts, 5 day work weeks, basic insurance and labor conditions etc.

After industrialization and before the creation of the Unions, labor conditions were so appalling in the Western world that mortality rates actually spiked and life expectancy dropped as much as 20 years in industrialized areas, combined with a spike on child mortality and serious disabling health conditions.

Anybody who thinks that Corporations would "self regulate" are delusional. History proved for a fact that they simply don't. The often raised Ford example for living wages and disposable income is an exception to the rule, but only reinforces it, due to the prevalent conditions of the time in which skilled labor required in that specific manufacturing sector was at short supply forcing companies to compete for laborers, in today's labor market that is no longer the case, and preserving laborers is inconsequential. (In manufacturing/industry at least.)

Not to mention currently the legal/political balance between corporations and laborers is ridiculously skewed in favor of corporations due to their lobbying power.

And I say all this as a small business owner. I never worked in a unionized job and I have a number of issues with Spanish Labor Unions that I feel are often damaging to the Spanish economy in their influence over the state and in how they exercise that influence. They are known for their misappropriations of public funds and for their habit of supporting idiotic policies and legislative measures that are often blatantly moronic or outright self evidently damaging.

They create and seem to fervently foster a climate of Workers vs. Business Owners putting all businesses from multinational corporations to small 3 man enterprises in the same bucket, ignoring the fact that over 70% of Spanish jobs are created by small businesses and that said businesses often lack the resources to battle through the legal hurdles raised by the Unions that big Corporations simply out-lawyer or create exceptions for themselves via political lobbying power.

For example for me to downsize (which I would only do in case there is a sharp drop in revenues) is an incredibly expensive venture, as I would have to pay a massive (as much as 2 years worth in wages) settlement, unless I am literally bankrupt. On the other hand bigger businesses that have hundreds or thousands of employees can downsize at a fraction of the cost due to legal exemptions even if they are still profitable.

The junk legislation that penalizes me is pushed by the Unions who show it off as some sort of achievement in the field of labor relations between businesses and employees, ignoring that I barely make thrice (sometimes I don't make any money months on end, and everything from wages to operating costs come out of my pockets) as much as I pay my employees and all that at a great personal risk as the financial burden solely rests on my and my partners shoulders, and I can barely pay the insurance fund that would allow me to downsize if need be (and I'm among the lucky one, as I can actually afford such an insurance). Meanwhile multinationals are subject to nearly none of these issues.

[Zvinny]

The United Auto Workers Union was the only thing that kept my family from living on the streets at one point, and as a person with two relatives working with Ford I support them.

[Deleted]

Support them for the most part.. they sometimes go a bit too far and demand unrealistic things though.

[Spectral]

Sector dependent. In contexts where work is dangerous or regularly under compensated, they're quite useful. In contexts where employees are skilled and face no real hazards at the workplace, they're counterproductive for all but the least productive workers.

[Zecora]

Unions are great, they are the main reason why people started getting paid living wages. And now that some countries have stopped paying people living wages, they are more needed than ever.

Oh, and huzzah for a poll with a full range of options, kudos OP!