Mafia 44 : Another boring world?

[Danner]

Well, that was an interesting game towards the end.

* Soaking a night kill - check. I see the mafia took the bait despite pretty much knowing that I was trying to soak a night kill. Too bad that won't work the next time!
* Also: everyone seems to be so afraid of me... the only one I aimed for this game was Tomec, and he kinda wasn't scum you know. I suck at this game
* ~15 VTs in a row dying. That's some incredibly crappy luck for the mafia right there.
* Worgenite did far more harm than good with his night kills
* But damn did he redeem himself towards the end.
* Game was horribly dull prior to day 5. Even if you are a VT, you are allowed to try you know!
* The modkill kinda screwed the mafia over
* With 5 town players suddenly revealing themselves as named roles, the mafia suddenly found themselves with a major clusterfuck to deal with - they had no safeclaims! If only they had killed some TPRs along the way...
* The mafia choice to not aim for confirmed townies also screwed them over.

All in all... it was good. Next time, try to not rely so much on night actions.

[mercychan]

You've gone all Mercy on us. So I ask this out of genuine concern. Are you ok?

We didn't feel like it was potentially out of control until Mercy got modkilled. At that point I think it was pretty much unrecoverable.

Then Mercy gets mod killed and suddenly there's a desperation added to the frantic goings on

To be honest, I feel kind of bad for Mercy though. The heckle and mod kill really helped town out.

* The modkill kinda screwed the mafia over

[Danner]

Mercy: live and learn

[Anakso]

Was an interesting game indeed Danner.

Let's see
*Soaking a night kill - check. I see the mafia..No wait it was the vigi on his crusade to kill as many town as possible! D:<

[Lysah]

No wait it was the vigi on his crusade to kill as many town as possible! D:<

Trying to make a more dramatic victory*

[Deleted]

Was an interesting game indeed Danner.

Let's see
*Soaking a night kill - check. I see the mafia..No wait it was the vigi on his crusade to kill as many town as possible! D:<

Those are the best kind of vigilantes.

Not the one we need, but the one we deserve.

[Greeney]

The rest I agree with. However, you are way too caught up on lynching confirmed scum. You can go back and check my first game that I got mod killed in for being banned on day 2, but this is where this logic started (mostly my fault, as I told Hanna to argue this in thread since I was helping her out with her first game of mafia ever and I played with her on the sidelines since I was b& anyway). Hanna came out with a positive ID, Firebert counter claimed her. People argued a bit. Eventually Wasselina admitted to being a wolf but said that they had tried to NK the same guy two nights in a row and it failed twice, so he was sure it was a serial killer.

At this point, everyone wants to vote off Wass. After all, free scum is free scum, right? But oh, so so wrong. Think about the results of said lynch. His teammates can easily jump on the train on him and look like VTs. The serial killers can do the same. The TPRs now have to WIFOM themselves if they jump on the lynch and risk getting NKed or stay off the lynch and risk getting lynched. All of this is only bad for the town. Meanwhile, the wolves are still at 3 members and still have their kill, nothing is gained except 1 fewer scum that needs lynched. But a lynch on a scum today or a lynch tomorrow makes no difference. Say you put off killing him until the very end, until every last person is dead except him. In a 1v2, you now have a confirmed scum to lynch and it's a free win. In this case, saving him until last actually makes the MOST sense.

That's a terrible strategy, leaving the known scum alive until end game. You don't leave him alive so you know who's scum in a 2 vs. 1, because then mafia might end up winning with 50% of the vote earlier on in the game.

But that's a pretty WIFOM scenario, so suffice to say lynching the supposed SK makes more sense in this situation. If he's a solo SK who is NK immune while performing his action (ninja variant) then he essentially has to be lynched to be taken out, and, furthermore, you stop a NK, which is much more powerful. In this game, lynching Ret was extremely illogical, for the reasons pointed out that day. Ret all but stated the game was LyLo, which means that any conscious townie should hold his vote until the very end, understanding that even one misplaced town vote makes for an easy scum bandwagon and game over. The fact that Ret immediately got 3 votes should be a massive red flag to town players in a game that is LyLo or close. The fact that Ret was waiting to hammer himself was also evidence that he was trying not to scare votes off himself, but that is looking a little too deeply into things.

I don't think so. 99% of the time there's known scum people put a vote on them immediately before everyone even has a chance to pos. If you're at LyLo you lynch known scum because as soon as scum gets the lynch that gives them 50% of the votes it's game over (IMO).

Suffice to say, lynching Ret would be a mistake for the town. Scum can easily hide on the train and nothing is gained from it unless you're actually wiping a night kill off the map.

Lynching Ret would have been a mistake for town due to reasons nobody besides the mods or mafia could have assumed.

Instead, leaving him alive gives the potential for his teammates to slip, or for him to slip, or both. It doesn't even have to be anything anyone says, look at people who specifically avoid talking to him, or people he specifically avoids talking about, in fear of slipping.

If they're inexperienced, sure, but if they've played a few games they should know how to integrate themselves as town.

tl;dr
0 info gained from lynching confirmed scum
Massive potential leaving them alive
Only lynch confirmed scum if you suspect they are the last of their team.

The only reason we lynch "confirmed" scum that cops find is to test the cop claim, not to kill the scum. Getting a confirmed townie who can also confirm other townies (or a confirmed liar) is very much worth lynching anyone else.

A minimum of 1 more day gained from lynching confirmed scum (again 99998.9./99999 times) meaning a higher chance of town victory.

Same here, it amused me greatly that the reason a cop didn't investigate Lysah is the same reason the mafia didn't kill her.

You keep disregarding me Robo. I fought for Lysah because I was told she was innocent.

[Lysah]

What does "1 more day" matter? If you are going to pick the wrong guy it doesn't matter if it is on day 6 or day 7, you will lose regardless. The only hope you have is that mafia NKs the guy you would've lynched so you can't make that mistake.

All games start out at some relative number of mislynches before a loss, that is all that matters. If it's 10 town vs 2 mafia you get 4 mislynches, assuming the kill never fails. Whether you take that 4th mislynch immediately or push it back a day lynching a mafia does not matter, 4th mislynch is a loss either way whenever it happens. Because of the #mislynches rule, it does not matter when you decide to take care of the scum, so long as you take care of them all before you reach that number.

Again, the only real reason to lynch scum immediately upon being found is if you suspect you can stop a night kill or if it will reveal some other helpful information. Lynching someone who admits to being scum and not gaining anything else from the lynch is no different from chasing a lurker, lynching a banned player, or any other "easy lynch."

[Lora]

I still don't get how mafia let things go to shit. They had this game in the bag.

[Arlee]

Btw Props to Cruelle - I would never kill Anakso N1 ^_^

In b4 Lelly kills Ana N1 next game!

[Anakso]

She promised to protect me n1 if she gets a doc role so I hope not! xD

[Arlee]

It's all a brilliant set-up Ana!

[Greeney]

What does "1 more day" matter? If you are going to pick the wrong guy it doesn't matter if it is on day 6 or day 7, you will lose regardless. The only hope you have is that mafia NKs the guy you would've lynched so you can't make that mistake.

It gives you at least one more investigation per investigative role.
It gives you one less mislynch as you will likely lynch a townie rather than the known scum.

All games start out at some relative number of mislynches before a loss, that is all that matters. If it's 10 town vs 2 mafia you get 4 mislynches, assuming the kill never fails. Whether you take that 4th mislynch immediately or push it back a day lynching a mafia does not matter, 4th mislynch is a loss either way whenever it happens. Because of the #mislynches rule, it does not matter when you decide to take care of the scum, so long as you take care of them all before you reach that number.

Right, so lynching a townie instead of scum = 1 unnecessary mislynch.

Again, the only real reason to lynch scum immediately upon being found is if you suspect you can stop a night kill or if it will reveal some other helpful information. Lynching someone who admits to being scum and not gaining anything else from the lynch is no different from chasing a lurker, lynching a banned player, or any other "easy lynch."

Except by easy lynch I'm referring to scum who try to pile on to townies because other townies would seemingly bandwagon without much though. If they want to easy lynch themselves I'm all for it. What you're saying is lynching scum if they're known is like voting to no lynch. Leaving scum alive is pointless, by the following day everyone will just disregard whatever they have left to say. Why lynch a townie instead? Usually nothing can be gained and there's a chance it will cause town to lose the game if it is in LyLo.

[Robozerim]

You keep disregarding me Robo. I fought for Lysah because I was told she was innocent.

/sigh

It amused me greatly that the the reason the cop that I was sharing a QT with didn't investigate Lysah is the same reason the mafia didn't kill her. Is that better? It's bad enough that I can't simply say "I", do I really have to fly through all these hoops every time I talk about my partner? >.<

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We didn't feel like it was potentially out of control until Mercy got modkilled. At that point I think it was pretty much unrecoverable.

It looked so good otherwise, though. Ah well.

A little late to respond to this one, but I think the unrecoverable point was when you killed Lysah thinking she was Shiro. Had you been right about her, then I don't think it would have been nearly as hard to recover from the modkill.

[Arlee]

Oh, was Tomec protected that night? If not then they should have just gone for him Though I understand assuming he'd be protected.

[Greeney]

/sigh

It amused me greatly that the the reason the cop that I was sharing a QT with didn't investigate Lysah is the same reason the mafia didn't kill her. Is that better? It's bad enough that I can't simply say "I", do I really have to fly through all these hoops every time I talk about my partner? >.<

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A little late to respond to this one, but I think the unrecoverable point was when you killed Lysah thinking she was Shiro. Had you been right about her, then I don't think it would have been nearly as hard to recover from the modkill.

My partner and I*

If I die day 1 it's Robo.

[Hokiefan]

A little late to respond to this one, but I think the unrecoverable point was when you killed Lysah thinking she was Shiro. Had you been right about her, then I don't think it would have been nearly as hard to recover from the modkill.

Yes - The fact that Lysah was nonstop about Catta all game made me (us) think that she was trying to build a case that she was not aligned with Tomec, who investigated Catta early, and did not investigate Lysah.

It was said before, but we WIFOM'd ourselves into oblivion there.

[Loaf]

It was said before, but we WIFOM'd ourselves into oblivion there.

ok, I'm pretty bad about WIFOM stuff, really I am, so what is everyone meaning when they say the scum WIFOMed themselves to death?

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like, is it that gamble thing that cost you guys the game or is it something else?

[Greeney]

ok, I'm pretty bad about WIFOM stuff, really I am, so what is everyone meaning when they say the scum WIFOMed themselves to death?

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like, is it that gamble thing that cost you guys the game or is it something else?

In this case it meant Lysah WIFOMed them. Usually when someone WIFOMs themselves they're trying to WIFOM others and it backfires.

[Kleos]

They out played/thought themselvs and mad it harder than it needed to be i think :P