[GUIDE] Mistweavers of Draenor: PvE Healing in [6.2]

[Slakos]

For the mana reduction trinket, does anyone know how it works with soothing mists or channeling abilities in general? I also doubpt it works with all our spells which only cost chi. Making it worse for us then most other classes.

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Well since the leech HPS calculation is based on player HPS, which is in the formula, and the gear scoring is based on % increase in player healing, we could relate them sorta.

Leech HPS = Player HPS * Average DPS * trinket % * 10 / 70 / 100(converting for %) *.65(overheal)

To get % increase, want (Player HPS + Leech HPS)/Player HPS

Add Player HPS to both Sides then devide by player HPS

% Increase in Healing = Average DPS * trinket % * 10 / 70 / 100* .65 + 1

At 45k dps
% Increase = 43%

1% Increase is worth 110 geodew gear points.

=4730 points

The heroic (not shown) leech effect alone is worth more than two mythic Auto-Repair trinkets. (with a whole bunch of rough assumptions)

Looks like this is definitely worth doing normal mode for.

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Because this trinket scales with Player healing and the person you cast it on DPS, it will continue to get better and better through every tier. As it currently stands you could use this trinket next expansion and it would still be amazing.

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Good chance I made a mistake somewhere but this trinket is absurd.

If your average raid DPS is 60k this trinket would cause you to do 62% additional healing.
100k 97% additional healing (almost half of your healing would be from this thing)
200k 193% additional healing (two thirds of your healing would be from this thing)

Table + Graph of scaling: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-0JpFHXZLS65knYlfMvWvIBu9NCiUbhwq-KWpbnOg3k/edit?usp=sharing

[Supliftz]

The mana reduction trinket works on soothing ticks iirc.

[Slakos]

The mana reduction trinket, may fill a niche roll with a chi explosion build. When channeling soothing mists + surging mists it is saving more than twice as much mana compared to spreading hots everywhere. Since it saves the mana every 1second on soothing + every ~1.5 second on surging. Compared to just every 1.5second on REM/Expel/RJW. The high chi cost of chi explosion almso means less GCDs will be used on chi spenders which receive no benefit from the trinket.

[Geodew]

Slakos I'm already working on trinkets lol

[Supliftz]

The mana reduction trinket, may fill a niche roll with a chi explosion build. When channeling soothing mists + surging mists it is saving more than twice as much mana compared to spreading hots everywhere. Since it saves the mana every 1second on soothing + every ~1.5 second on surging. Compared to just every 1.5second on REM/Expel/RJW. The high chi cost of chi explosion almso means less GCDs will be used on chi spenders which receive no benefit from the trinket.

That WOULD be a legit build if t18 2pc/4pc didn't exist.

[Geodew]

I guess I'll go ahead and post the ones I finished already for those reading this main thread, then when I finish them all I'll add it all to the stat weight post?

Full List of HFC trinkets usable by Mistweaver (Mythic, plus one duplicate Heroic)
http://ptr.wowhead.com/items=4.-4?fi...7%3A6%3A-8%3A0

A Preface
This will need to be corrected when weights are recalculated for Patch 6.2, but should be close. Specifically, the trinkets with Haste will get a little stronger, the trinkets with Int will get a little weaker, and the trinkets with Spirit will get a little weaker. These weights below assume additional mana is useful for more RJW casts (if it’s not, you’d obviously go with the best trinket that doesn’t have any Spirit or Spirit-like effects).

I’m just doing the Mythic versions for now, but one could easily plug-and-chug the numbers for other versions. Alternatively, you could note that a 15 ilvl increase increases a trinket’s power by about 15%. Hence, a 15 ilvl decrease would decrease its power to (1/1.15)=86.957%.

Flickering Felspark (ilvl 720 Trash drop)
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124231/f...park&bonus=567
Straightforward.
478 Mastery (weight 0.34) => 162.52 points
478 Multistrike (weight 1.09) => 521.02 points
478 Static Spirit (weight 2.45) => 1171.10 points
TOTAL: 1854.64 points (+16.86% healing from empty gear slot)

Chipped Soul Prism (ilvl 725 ??? drop)
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124545/c...rism&bonus=567
Also straightforward.
225 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 425.25 points
225 Critical Strike (weight 0.98) => 220.50 points
225 Haste (weight 0.61) => 137.25 points
225 Versatility (weight 0.92) => 207.00 points
225 Mastery (weight 0.34) => 76.50 points
225 Multistrike (weight 1.09) => 245.25 points
TOTAL: 1311.75 points (+11.925% healing from empty gear slot)

Intuition’s Gift (ilvl 725 drop from Kilrogg)
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124232/i...gift&bonus=567
On-Use effects can be useful for predefined, scripted burst windows designed as part of a boss encounter. However, often players can die outside of these burst scenarios, as well. Since on-use effects help more than static stats for the former but help less for the latter, I generally apply no penalty or bonus to on-use effects. Although the former may sound more valuable anyway, note that it is also often impossible to use on-use trinkets on cooldown and have them line up with scripted burst windows, which lowers its value significantly compared to static stats; one cannot simply walk into Mor- Er, I mean, one cannot simply take the average stat and call it a day. IMHO, the effects roughly cancel on an average fight, so I walk the “unbiased” path of a 0% penalty/bonus. In other words, you could say I apply a bonus for it assisting with the harder parts of fights, but an equal penalty for not getting 100% usage from it (thus lowering its average stat value). As usual, challenges to these such estimations are welcome.

502 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 948.78 points
502 Spirit (weight 2.45) => 1229.90 points
827.5 Crit (average, as stipulated by paragraph above, weight 0.98) => 810.95 points
TOTAL: 2989.63 points (+27.18% healing from empty gear slot)

Demonic Phylactery (ilvl 725 drop from Socrethar/Soulbound Construct)
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124233/d...tery&bonus=567
“Equip: Reduces the mana cost of your spells by 368.”
One could roughly equate this with gaining 368 mana every GCD, but we need to make some adjustments to that estimation to obtain the highest-fidelity estimate that we can. First, recall from stat weights that about 5% of our GCDs are spent channeling Mana Tea, or at least channeling Serpent CJL. Since Mana Tea and CJL do not spend mana, that lowers the value of this trinket by 5%. Second, this effect applies to every tick of Soothing Mist, so the “every GCD” estimate falls apart there. To account for this, we first note that our SooM usage depends on whether we have PoM or ChiEx talented, so we’ll break it down by talent. We will want to reverse-engineer how much time was spent on SooM GCDs, to subtact that out of the estimate, and add back in how many SooM ticks we get per minute on average.

For PoM, we see that SooM uptime is about 11-12% on average. However, of this time, only about 8% contributes to actual SooM ticks, since we’re constantly clipping the spell to move or cast other things. You can calculate this yourself by comparing your raid’s SooM uptime from your compared to the number of your SooM ticks. From logs, SooM casts are started about 2.75 times per minute. Thus, we’ll subtract another 2.75*(0.5/60) = 2.3% value from the trinket due to “lost” GCDs that could have otherwise been spent on mana-cost spells. We need to add back the 8% time casting actual SooM ticks, though, which triggers every second (before Haste) instead of every GCD, which multiplies its value by 1.5 for a total 12% bonus.

For ChiEx, SooM’s uptime is much higher, so we expect this trinket to gain additional value. ChiEx is hard to get data for, since the highest parses even for Gruul and Oregorger use Pool of Mists, but I was able to find some decent logs. In this case, the total SooM uptime jumps to about 33%, with about 30% contributing to actual SooM healing. It’s interesting that it’s so much higher, relatively, but with SooM as a higher priority spell and taking up more of your time yet with the same amount of raid movement, and with ChiEx not interrupting SooM, I suppose one would expect more of the total SooM uptime to be effective. Anyway, that’s about 36% in the “ideal no-movement ticks-very-fast” scenario. With starting SooM channels about 10.5 times per minute, that’s 10.5*(0.5/60) = 8.75% value lost, with 1.5*0.30 = 45% added back. Holy crap, that’s a lot of mana back from SooM!

Thus…
Mana cost reduction (PoM) => (1 - 0.05 - 0.023 + 0.12)*368*(5/1.5)*(1+Haste%) mp5 = 1284.32*(1+Haste%) mp5 = (@8.14% Haste) 1388.863 mp5 = 673.878 Spirit (weight 1.41) => 950.17 points
Mana cost reduction (ChiEx) => (1 - 0.05 - 0.0875 + 0.45)*368*(5/1.5)*(1+Haste%) mp5 = 1610.00*(1+Haste%) mp5 = (@8.14% Haste) 1741.054 mp5 = 844.762 Spirit (weight 1.41) => 1191.11 points
502 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 948.78 points
502 Haste (weight 0.61) => 306.22 points
TOTAL (PoM): 2205.17 points (+20.047% healing from empty gear slot)
TOTAL (ChiEx): 2446.11 points (+22.237% healing from empty gear slot)
Error, need to redo


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So Leech and class trinket TBD, but Leech looks like about 8500 points if overheal equals your average (yes, absurd). Obviously it will overheal more, but we'll have to test it to see by how much. If you recall from my stat weight section, though, its overheal isn't usually too bad.

[borisshayo]

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong but for Demonic Phylactery it seems you're not counting gcds spent on uplift (or other chi spenders) which don't benefit from the reduced mana effect. Considering you spend roughly a third of your gcds on chi spenders (ignoring mana tea/soom for the moment but it's also a bit more because of chi brew/power strikes) it would greatly reduce the value for mistweavers.

[Asrialol]

Is it possible to track how much healing the Leech trinket provides, or will the healing done be done on the character receiving the leech?

[Geodew]

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong but for Demonic Phylactery it seems you're not counting gcds spent on uplift (or other chi spenders) which don't benefit from the reduced mana effect. Considering you spend roughly a third of your gcds on chi spenders (ignoring mana tea/soom for the moment but it's also a bit more because of chi brew/power strikes) it would greatly reduce the value for mistweavers.

No, I think you're right. Must have slipped my mind. This is why I share logic and not just the results/numbers :P

Is it possible to track how much healing the Leech trinket provides, or will the healing done be done on the character receiving the leech?

Nope, the Leech healing will come from the person you put it on.

[Deleted]

Why in earth is such a thing like the leeche trinket even considered...
You cant even balance it and it seems to be off for some classes and completly broken for others.

Pretty much the same as the mana reduction trinket... im already spamming RJW and while my fellow healers are dry after some 10 minutes, i still have a pot, 14 stacks of Tea and about 80% mana...

I dont like those new trinkets at all... what was wrong with the old on-use/procc based stuff... it worked for the last decade.
Dont see how it will be possible to balance any of them at all.. classes are to different.

Already can see it with koragh trinket, which is only 685 or what... pop it and see what RJW does with the group, when packed like at the end of Imp Transitionphase...
No need for any Heal CD, just let the monk pop his trinket and spam RJW with 3 uplifts...

[Deleted]

Why in earth is such a thing like the leeche trinket even considered...
You cant even balance it and it seems to be off for some classes and completly broken for others.

Pretty much the same as the mana reduction trinket... im already spamming RJW and while my fellow healers are dry after some 10 minutes, i still have a pot, 14 stacks of Tea and about 80% mana...

I dont like those new trinkets at all... what was wrong with the old on-use/procc based stuff... it worked for the last decade.
Dont see how it will be possible to balance any of them at all.. classes are to different.

Already can see it with koragh trinket, which is only 685 or what... pop it and see what RJW does with the group, when packed like at the end of Imp Transitionphase...
No need for any Heal CD, just let the monk pop his trinket and spam RJW with 3 uplifts...

The mana cost reduction trinket is actually a very old mechanic that dates back to TBC iirc

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Is it possible to track how much healing the Leech trinket provides, or will the healing done be done on the character receiving the leech?

In theory it's possible to track, by monitoring the buff and how much that individual's leech does while active. Overheal would be hard to gauge though, by that I mean judging which player's leech bonus is responsible for overhealing.

[Spotnick]

So Leech and class trinket TBD, but Leech looks like about 8500 points if overheal equals your average (yes, absurd). Obviously it will overheal more, but we'll have to test it to see by how much. If you recall from my stat weight section, though, its overheal isn't usually too bad.

IDK if it's useful, but this is a comment on wowhead about it:

This item only counts effective healing, not overhealing. It may affect absorbs, but only once an effect (like Power Word: Shield) actually absorbs damage, not when it is applied.

Example: You have the normal version of this trinket and heal a player for 30,000 (no overhealing). The normal version of the trinket gives 0.79% of effective healing as leech, so the player would gain 237 leech for 10 seconds. 237 leech gives a player 3.39% of their damage/healing returned to them as self-healing.

[Geodew]

IDK if it's useful, but this is a comment on wowhead about it:

Oh, yeah, I already know how it works. The parts left to do is just like "how much HPS are healers doing, how much DPS are DPSers doing, how much healing and DPS are tanks doing" etc.

[Geodew]

#FIXT

Interestingly, we get below-normal value for PoM and above-normal value for ChiEx, where "normal" refers to healers like priests who spend mana basically every GCD.

Demonic Phylactery (ilvl 725 drop from Socrethar/Soulbound Construct)
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124233/d...tery&bonus=567
“Equip: Reduces the mana cost of your spells by 368.”
One could roughly equate this with gaining 368 mana every GCD, but we need to make some adjustments to that estimation to obtain the highest-fidelity estimate that we can. First, recall from stat weights that about 5% of our GCDs are spent channeling Mana Tea, or at least channeling Serpent CJL. Since Mana Tea and CJL do not spend mana, that lowers the value of this trinket by 5%. Chi Burst, Uplift, and EM also do not spend mana, of which the GCDs take another ~20% of total GCDs, which lowers the effect’s value by another (additive) ~20%. Second, this effect applies to every tick of Soothing Mist, so the “every GCD” estimate falls apart there. To account for this, we first note that our SooM usage depends on whether we have PoM or ChiEx talented, so we’ll break it down by talent. We will want to reverse-engineer how much time was spent on SooM GCDs, to subtact that out of the estimate, and add back in how many SooM ticks we get per minute on average.

For PoM, we see that SooM uptime is about 11-12% on average. However, of this time, only about 8% contributes to actual SooM ticks, since we’re constantly clipping the spell to move or cast other things. You can calculate this yourself by comparing your raid’s SooM uptime from your compared to the number of your SooM ticks. From logs, SooM casts are started about 2.75 times per minute. Thus, we’ll subtract another 2.75*(0.5/60) = 2.3% value from the trinket due to “lost” GCDs that could have otherwise been spent on mana-cost spells. We need to add back the 8% time casting actual SooM ticks, though, which triggers every second (before Haste) instead of every GCD, which multiplies its value by 1.5 for a total 12% bonus.

For ChiEx, SooM’s uptime is much higher, so we expect this trinket to gain additional value. ChiEx is hard to get data for, since the highest parses even for Gruul and Oregorger use Pool of Mists, but I was able to find some decent logs. In this case, the total SooM uptime jumps to about 33%, with about 30% contributing to actual SooM healing. It’s interesting that it’s so much higher, relatively, but with SooM as a higher priority spell and taking up more of your time yet with the same amount of raid movement, and with ChiEx not interrupting SooM, I suppose one would expect more of the total SooM uptime to be effective. Anyway, that’s about 36% in the “ideal no-movement ticks-very-fast” scenario. With starting SooM channels about 10.5 times per minute, that’s 10.5*(0.5/60) = 8.75% value lost, with 1.5*0.30 = 45% added back. Holy crap, that’s a lot of mana back from SooM!

Thus…
Mana cost reduction (PoM) => (1 - 0.05 - 0.20 - 0.023 + 0.12)*368*(5/1.5)*(1+Haste%) mp5 = 1038.99*(1+Haste%) mp5 = (@8.14% Haste) 1123.560 mp5 = 545.153 Spirit (weight 1.41) => 768.67 points
Mana cost reduction (ChiEx) => (1 - 0.05 - 0.20 - 0.0875 + 0.45)*368*(5/1.5)*(1+Haste%) mp5 = 1364.67*(1+Haste%) mp5 = (@8.14% Haste) 1475.751 mp5 = 716.036 Spirit (weight 1.41) => 1009.61 points
502 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 948.78 points
502 Haste (weight 0.61) => 306.22 points
TOTAL (PoM): 2023.67 points (+18.397% healing from empty gear slot)
TOTAL (ChiEx): 2264.61 points (+20.587% healing from empty gear slot)

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Hey, different topic. Has anyone tried an intentionally-low Spirit build with Chi Torpedo in Mythic BRF?

[Volibear]

Thanks for the math as always, Geodew!

I can say that the only time I've used Chi Torp in BRF is to pad DPS on heroic Thogar.

[Geodew]

Haha, you're welcome. I do it for all of us, though, myself included!

I think CT might not be enough burst compared to pre-casting RJW and shit, but it could be more total raw healing, which would be better if e.g. you're carrying co-healers. I don't really have much math available to back that claim up, though, so wondering if anyone has given it a try who can be like "nope it was terrible" or something.

[Supliftz]

People were using chi torpedo on blast furance right after patch dropped.

[Geodew]

People were using chi torpedo on blast furance right after patch dropped.

With low Spirit? I can't imagine it being very good with high spirit. I was under the impression that lots of people were excited about it, tried it, then decided "meh" and went back to RJW for more burst.

[Kickbuttmario]

Its a clunky mechanic. I used it for fights like Mythic Oregorger when our guild didn't have holy paladins, so I stood with the melee and basically healed them Uplift and Chi Torpedo. Once you got the spirit, it became very obvious it paled in comparison to RJW.

[Geodew]

Melee takes very little damage on Oregorger, though. You're gunna do shit numbers if that's what you're assigned to. You can heal it with CE Crane for progression and probably now even PoM Crane nowadays. Even if your strat is such that every melee gets hit every time. So they don't really take enough damage to be a good metric for how good CT is.

I think there would also be a lot of MWs around here who played for early- to mid-MoP when Chi Torpedo was the only good option for its tier (and it was fantastic, huge HPS gain) who are quite used to the gameplay, including me, Suplift, and Floopa at the very least I'm sure. Dunno if Monkioh was still Palioh back then or not :P I don't really think it's that clunky, and it's kinda fun since it's more APM (Actions Per Minute) with ReM or EH into a CT, basically using two spells in one GCD.