Is Telling Someone To Use Caution Really Victim Blaming?

[Revi]

It's not the same at all. You should be able to tell people they're an idiot for being reckless, and that they could have avoided whatever happened to them if they'd followed common advice (if that's the case). There's idiots on both sides, but blaming someone for putting themselves in a certain situation is not the same as blaming them for the criminal act.

Like the ridiculous example by someone in a similar thread, that a woman should be able to walk around naked and alone without being blamed for anything if she's raped. She should not be blamed for the rape itself, but she should absolutely be blaming for being a complete idiot and putting herself knowingly in a dangerous situation.

[Crissi]

It's not the same at all. You should be able to tell people they're an idiot for being reckless, and that they could have avoided whatever happened to them if they'd followed common advice (if that's the case). There's idiots on both sides, but blaming someone for putting themselves in a certain situation is not the same as blaming them for the criminal act.

Although telling someone who's crying from just being a victim that does make you an ass for having horrible timing.

[Revi]

Although telling someone who's crying from just being a victim that does make you an ass for having horrible timing.

Yes, of course I honestly don't think there's ever a time to tell people off individually, because the crime has already happened. It's something that's more useful to society at large. Stuff like tip on how to stay safe aimed at girls often get's shut down from people screaming about victim blaming, which is a shame.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Although telling someone who's crying from just being a victim that does make you an ass for having horrible timing.

I don't think you guys are really reading the thread title. I took it as "telling people to use caution in general" ... not running up to someone who was just raped and screaming "HEY IF YOU DIDN'T GET DRUNK AND DRESS LIKE THAT YOU WOULDN'T GET RAPED!!! USE CAUTION!"

See the difference? I mean its like when you were a kid and firemen come to your school and tell you things to avoid and tell you to have an escape route.. they aren't victim blaming you if your house happens to burn down..

[Crissi]

Yes, of course I honestly don't think there's ever a time to tell people off individually, because the crime has already happened. It's something that's more useful to society at large. Stuff like tip on how to stay safe aimed at girls often get's shut down from people screaming about victim blaming, which is a shame.

Yeah. I find preventative information a LOT more effective and useful than "after the fact" crap. People screaming about victim blaming for giving general preventative advice tend to be a bunch of idiots that you should ignore.

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I don't think you guys are really reading the thread title. I took it as "telling people to use caution in general" ... not running up to someone who was just raped and screaming "HEY IF YOU DIDN'T GET DRUNK AND DRESS LIKE THAT YOU WOULDN'T GET RAPED!!! USE CAUTION!"

See the difference? I mean its like when you were a kid and firemen come to your school and tell you things to avoid and tell you to have an escape route.. they aren't victim blaming you if your house happens to burn down..

I don't think you read my earlier posts...

actually nv,. I never actually clarified how I felt until this post.

[Archangel Tyrael]

-Feminists complain that people should not judge them by what they wear, victim blaming etc.
-Proceed to complain about a scientist wearing a shirt made by a friend of his who was also a female and demand an apology

Top tip top kek.

[vetinari]

Ah man I might agree with Wells, now I have to have some deep introspection.

We as a society should recognize and point out the obvious mistakes people have made that led them getting hurt to each other; but telling the person who got hurt how they fucked up Captain Hindsight style is not going to help anything.

So the OP pointing out that hey watch out for yourself if your walking to xxx, its a known xxx, is not victim blaming, or in no way wrong.

Correction. It won't help the person who was hurt.

It might just help other people to say "don't do what he/she did"

edit: 666th post seems somehow appropriate

[Deleted]

Is it victim blaming to caution someone before anything happens?

it is victim blaming after the crime , i.e you were asking for it because... that's not helpful especially if they are in distress/injured

My problem is lack of common sense , my parents drummed in a lot of stuff to help me stay safe. You know the ones where after awhile you started replying

'I know mum/dad , stop reminding me. .....'

I think a major issue is lack of empathy on the internet because we are not in front of that person.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

"Don't run with scissors Margie, little Timmy down the street did and he cut his arm!"

'You victim blaming bastard!"

[Deleted]

Victim blaming is not about warning people / telling people to be cautious. Victim blaming is transfering blame from the person who committed the act to the victim because of something the victim did.

Things like saying "Well you shouldn't have talked back to him if you didn't want to get punched," "You shouldn't have worn a mini skirt if you didn't want to get raped", etc. Victim blaming is purely about shifting some of the blame from the perpetrator and excusing his actions because of something the victim has done.

There's also the trend of people saying someone deserves to have a crime committed to them, which is also inexcusable in my opinion. "Oh if you go out looking like that you deserve to be raped." I've even heard people use the word "hope", "I hope you get raped, that'll teach you a lesson!" Seriously.. not acceptable. That's very different than saying "Please be careful, that's a dangerous area and you could get hurt if you walk around like that." Warning people in advance is done because you care about them and don't want them to get hurt, that's fine.

[Deleted]

Can i get a citation for this statement? It seems like a pretty outrageous claim unless you're being really liberal with the word fault.

It is safe to say that 25% is false rape/harassment accusation. ( sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf shows 40% but the sample is quite small and it is not really current)

Most of the 'not victim's fault' cases are the especially disturbing - relative, underage, position of authority (teacher).

Most of the rest is either not a rape at all ('raped by her boyfriend for 2 years' - that obviously can not be a rape, by definition), or a choice on some level - being provocative, walking alone unarmed in dangerous places with provocative clothing...

What does not help is that women just LOVE stories about a girl being dominated and abused. (Fifty shades of grey) That is obviously not personal fault of the victim, but a trait of society.

In my own personal experience, several times girl made me to 'take' her. One once said 'No, stop, let me go!' - I froze, stopped, and she stared at me in confusion and said 'That is part of the play you moron, continue before you spoil the moment entirely!'. Several times (from other girls) I was told something like 'Let me go!', followed by something like her scratching herself or scretching a spasm or drinking, and followed by her putting her hands together and saying 'Ok, grab me like that.'.
Though it is possible I just attract girls who like to appear strong and pretend they are hard to get *shrug*.

And I know two victims and both said themselves that it was their fault.

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Victim blaming is not about warning people / telling people to be cautious. Victim blaming is transfering blame from the person who committed the act to the victim because of something the victim did.

Things like saying "Well you shouldn't have talked back to him if you didn't want to get punched," "You shouldn't have worn a mini skirt if you didn't want to get raped", etc. Victim blaming is purely about shifting some of the blame from the perpetrator and excusing his actions because of something the victim has done.

There's also the trend of people saying someone deserves to have a crime committed to them, which is also inexcusable in my opinion. "Oh if you go out looking like that you deserve to be raped." I've even heard people use the word "hope", "I hope you get raped, that'll teach you a lesson!" Seriously.. not acceptable. That's very different than saying "Please be careful, that's a dangerous area and you could get hurt if you walk around like that." Warning people in advance is done because you care about them and don't want them to get hurt, that's fine.

It does not have to be that way. You can think of it like 'for that, both of you deserve a punishment' or 'both of you are to blame'. Only in rare cases it is ONLY victim's fault. (like, crossing a highway where it is forbidden in low visibility)

[Crissi]

You do realize a bf can still rape his gf when she says "not tonight' but he goes at it anyways, riiight? and abusive relationships like that the woman cna be too mentally damaged to leave. I mean, your entire opinion is so utterly stupid it should be discarded like the trash it is.

The only one responsible for a rape is the rapist. Without the rapist, there would be no rape. Choice of clothes does not matter in the slightest. Wanting to be dominated BY PEOPLE WE CONSENT WITH. Dont just ignore the last half of that and use it as some kind of stupid justification.

[glo]

This is easy:

Evil people are like fire, both are a constant that will never be eliminated and both can sometimes be mitigated by preventative measures. Are people stupid for not using smoke alarms in their house? Yes. Are people stupid for throwing caution and their personal safety to the wind? Yes.

If you're a victim of an evil person or fire, both being constants that you're fully aware of, and said incident could have been easily prevented by widely known precautions (not all incidents are preventable, certainly not suggesting that) the outcome of the situation is partially on your shoulders. Simple as that.

EDIT: Before the possible shitstorm, I'm not suggesting provocative clothing is somehow not being cautionary, I'm more so referring to not walking down known violent neighborhoods in the middle of the night by yourself and such.

[Karon]

To the question in the Threat Title: no, it isn't. never.

The question has been answered pretty good so far: It depends on how you phrase it.

People who blame women/men for being raped because they wore questionable outfits, I can only feel pity for their sick and twisted minds.

We are no animals. We can control our urges and we can differ between good and bad. rape ist ALWAYS the rapists fault. It doesn't matter if the victim was completely cothed or stark naked.

@glo: You are just another person that thinks that people wear signs around their necks that say "good guy" or "Bad guy". step away from your pc and go outside and maybe, but just maybe, you will realize that what you say is bullshit.

You can see a fire burning. you can often smell it.

You can't see if a human is good or bad.

[glo]

]@glo: You are just another being that thinks that people wear signs around their necks that say "good guy" or "Bad guy". step away from your pc and go outside and maybe, but just maybe, you will realize that what you say is bullshit.

You can see a fire burning. you can often smell it.

You can't see if a human is good or bad.

So since you can't know if a stranger is a good person or not, you should simply give up on any form of personal safety or caution? You don't know if the person driving behind you is drunk, but you wear your seat belt anyway. If you go through the windshield after they slam into you, are you magically not partially to blame for your death for not taking 2 seconds to put your seat belt on?

Also, you can't see most house fires coming.

[Nilil]

Thanks for the link! Took me a while to read through it and understand some of the terminology that was used.

While the amount of false rape charges(when the "victim" admits she filed them falsely as per the study) is a lot higher then I thought it would be. 45 reports over the course of 9 years seems to be unfair to say that most rape is false rape. Also as you've stated the sample size isn't the greatest and the experiment was done between the years of 1978-1987 which may not be a good judgement of the zeitgeist of 2014. However, I do take into account that there are probably people out there that accuse falsely and never admit it as well but to put a percent on that would just be speculation.

Secondly I don't think it's fair to say that a female is choosing to be raped if she is walking alone in what others may perceive to be provocative dress. While I will concede that a womens' provocative behavior towards men can send mix signals if she isn't looking for sex.

No comment on your... exotic sex life

[Karon]

So since you can't know if a stranger is a good person or not, you should simply give up on any form of personal safety or caution? You don't know if the person driving behind you is drunk, but you wear your seat belt anyway. If you go through the windshield after they slam into you, are you magically not partially to blame for your death for not taking 2 seconds to put your seat belt on?

Also, you can't see most house fires coming.

Because you are asleep while they start.

Define personal caution.

The root of this problem is, that there are places that forces you to think that the people around you are bad until prooven good. Thats the outcome of a failed society that can't manage itself. Such places are not the norm, nor will they ever be. And having to act outside the norm in certain regions is so specific that using it as an argument in this discussion would be like:

"Yeah, if Neil Armstrong opened his helmet on the surface of the moon he would be to blame for his death."

Of course you can argue that you are at fault if you run around at midnight in brooklyn in shady streets without any means of protection is plain stupid and you should be slapped until you cry for your mom, but as I said, most places are no shady streets where murders are a normal thing.

[Deleted]

^.^

People still linking Kanins study as though it holds any weight in regards to this discussion, a little bit of advice, it's been dismissed, refuted, debunked, demolished and abhorred by anyone with a grain of sense.

Widespread in-depth studies place the figure of false allegations and unproven allegations (They're put in the same category) at between 3-9%.

INB4 Feminist bla bla bla

[Afrospinach]

rawr

The bottom line is if you give stupid any kind of notion to play with it will end up in the wrong place. Alternatively there is also a marked step in society to try and play down self responsibility.

[Nilil]

^.^

People still linking Kanins study as though it holds any weight in regards to this discussion, a little bit of advice, it's been dismissed, refuted, debunked, demolished and abhorred by anyone with a grain of sense.

Widespread in-depth studies place the figure of false allegations and unproven allegations (They're put in the same category) at between 3-9%.

INB4 Feminist bla bla bla

Yea, that percentage is more akin to what I'm used to hearing false allegations being around. 1.5 - 8% if Wikipedia is to be believed.