Rogue population diminishing.. Intentional? What has happened to the Rogue class.

[Specious]

Something has been bothering me "lately".... (Be warned, the following wall of text may crit and I apologize in advance for possible errors, English is not my main language.)

I have been gaming for a very long time, and since an age probably slightly too young have I been enraptured by RPGs.
My favourite class or type, throughout my RPG spectrum, has been the Rogue, or equivalent Assassin-type character. My first ever character in WoW, some 10 years ago, was a Rogue called Video, on the EU realm Vashj.
I feel many share in this inclination of mine, and in new releases it's especially apparent with the amount of players playing them.
Possessing no hard numbers to validate this statement or any of the following, it is based on my subjective personal experiences, which inevitably is inclined to be biased, even if I don't believe for it to be so.

In short; I believe the Rogue class, or any reminding archetype in any game, to be a popular class. People want to play them.

...With that being said, the class loses popularity moving up the progression ladder, in any game. Rogues (not just in WoW) are a very fragile class which requires not just planning ahead, but an understanding of what you're up against, and it's mechanics, in order not to fail, and miserably so. Thus, it often has a high skill climb and roof, in relation to many other classes where one mistake could cost you dearly. This of course is a big deterrent to a lot of people, but also one of the most appealing aspects for others, myself included.
Considering the change WoW has made from being a very social game, where you not only had to actually chat and get along with people to do anything, but also had to build your characters reputation on the server to have a standing chance of participation, and how easy everything else is getting too, I really like how at least one class has managed to remain true in at least one, to me, very important aspect. (Particularly Subtetly.)

(I play Subtetly, so that is the specialization that I will be referring mainly when I'm ranting further...)
But, as the game is 'dumbed' down more and more, other classes getting closer to having one button to win it all, we retain (almost) everything that other classes have been 'pardoned'. Rogues are the only class that in order to compete, have to be not just a Rogue, but an amazing circus artist too, juggling several timers whilst watching cooldowns and managing resources not in relation to interior mechanics but exterior aswell, retaining positional requirements that were scrapped for all other classes because they weren't fun, starting off your rotation 20 seconds before the pull just to get a fightning chance, having to collect at least two item and weapon sets and talent specs and actively having to swap between them to pull off what every other class can do easily with just one set of items and one specialization. We are also the only class that relies on stealthing before combat and are genuinely gimped if, for whatever reason (and there are many) stealth drops before you can open - but we're not longer the only class having stealth, and outside of pvp it has never really been anything but an disadvantage to our class.

All this is fine, and how it should be (with the exception of positional requirement and talent/gear swapping, that's just plain stupid beyond belief.) according to me. I'm not asking for less of a challenge as the challenge is what makes it fun in the first place, nor that they remove stealth as it defines us. But it should be rewarding. And it really isn't. Rogues are the lower-class of World of Warcraft, having to work four times as hard to stay alive, and at the end of the day we are treated as little better than hardened criminals and are punished for our 'decision' to be poor (pure). Even in PvP this bad analogy holds true, as Rogues having become some kind of support class, our job being to act as enablers for the 'upper' classes to do their magic. Fortunately the analogy ends here, and we get to at least share the rewards of our (often hard) labour.

Our population is diminishing, Rogues everywhere are tossing the towel (including myself, after 10 years), and Blizzard does nothing to combat this. I can't imagine Blizzard not being aware of our situation, and of how our numbers are shrinking - so I can only deduct from this that it must be intentional. Since our class inherently is popular, it is to me apparent Blizzard has made a mess out of our class. Especially with how we're treated in relation to the other classes in patch note after patch note. 6.1 brings us nothing but a nerf to increase PvP frustration and lazy number tweaks to a broken ability, and on top of that a nerf to a specialization no one even plays because it sucks, and it was supposed to be a big spur of discussion for classes. And it probably is, for anyone but Rogues.

[Bruh]

I disagree with pretty much 100% of your post. I enjoy the hell out of my rogue. My damage is great and my survivability is better than most classes. There is no aspect of the game in pve or pvp where I feel underpowered.

If you don't enjoy the class anymore, blizzard provided several other classes to play. Go play one of them. I don't understand what is so hard about that.

[dak1]

I disagree with pretty much 100% of your post. I enjoy the hell out of my rogue. My damage is great and my survivability is better than most classes. There is no aspect of the game in pve or pvp where I feel underpowered.

Just so we can put your personal experience in context, is the following profile yours?
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Bruh/advanced

[Shaderas]

I know that rogue has been one of the least represented classes, not counting Vanilla (and possibly BC). I can't compare to brand new classes (so will have to ignore monk for now, although DK has been very popular), but usually the two bottom classes in terms of overall representation are Warlock and Rogue.

I'm unsure how to fix this... other posters have posted things in the past, but not as much stuff for WoD yet.

A lot of the other classes have similar gripes to yours on their boards as well... so either blizzard is screwing things up big time, or we just like to complain (probably a little bit of both).

[kiramon]

I know that rogue has been one of the least represented classes, not counting Vanilla (and possibly BC). I can't compare to brand new classes (so will have to ignore monk for now, although DK has been very popular), but usually the two bottom classes in terms of overall representation are Warlock and Rogue.

I'm unsure how to fix this... other posters have posted things in the past, but not as much stuff for WoD yet.

A lot of the other classes have similar gripes to yours on their boards as well... so either blizzard is screwing things up big time, or we just like to complain (probably a little bit of both).

As I have every class at 86 plus, with 4 or 100s and my rogue at 97, I have to say that at least leveling up rogue doesn't feel smooth . The play style just isn't smooth. It's energy though that does this, as only energy classes end up in situations where they can do no attacks consistently at low energy levels. They removed most other classes need for resources, but the amount of I can't do that yet is funny on rogue. But I mean if you find pooling energy fun, sure. I just know that when I play other classes it feels smooth and my rogue feels clunky leveling (albeit fun due to BAMF).

[Kyzawolf]

If you think rogue damage is fine in PvP, please play a feral druid or a frost dk.
I've accepted that even as combat, our role in PvP is utility.
In pve we are heavily gear dependent, but once we have gear each spec is fine for its niche. The problem in pve is that we HAVE to have 2 whole gearsets to perform optimally in pve, with radically different stat weights.

[leetpr0]

As I have every class at 86 plus, with 4 or 100s and my rogue at 97, I have to say that at least leveling up rogue doesn't feel smooth . The play style just isn't smooth. It's energy though that does this, as only energy classes end up in situations where they can do no attacks consistently at low energy levels. They removed most other classes need for resources, but the amount of I can't do that yet is funny on rogue. But I mean if you find pooling energy fun, sure. I just know that when I play other classes it feels smooth and my rogue feels clunky leveling (albeit fun due to BAMF).

Perhaps this is because a highly significant percentage of our damage comes from autoattacks, a bit less if you're assassination.

[Musta Kyy]

If you think rogue damage is fine in PvP, please play a feral druid or a frost dk.
I've accepted that even as combat, our role in PvP is utility.

This is bull, combat pressure is insane and they have basically 100% uptime on any target and red buff killing spree will take almost anything from 100->0% if they don't have a def cd that can be used while stunned ready.

But don't take my word for it, just check rogue representation, combat is currently the most represented dps spec (surpassed survival today I think) in 3v3 at 2,2k+.

[Deleted]

If you think rogue damage is fine in PvP, please play a feral druid or a frost dk.
I've accepted that even as combat, our role in PvP is utility.
In pve we are heavily gear dependent, but once we have gear each spec is fine for its niche. The problem in pve is that we HAVE to have 2 whole gearsets to perform optimally in pve, with radically different stat weights.

Combat and Sub gear isn't 'radically' different.

Neither is it two 'whole' gear sets in BRF.

[Deleted]

I think Rogues are great, and I cannot see myself quitting for much else thematically. There are strengths to the class which to tend to be ignored with the doomsayers and naysayers.

But the class is not without its issues. Although partly I fear that Blizzard are waiting to see how the community responds to better itemization. Which is slightly worrying, it feels far better to be proactive rather than reactive in these situations.

Overall I feel the 2 resource system is strong, and provides the staple for much of what we see in current class design. However I believe the class has fell behind as the other classes get more introduced to this double resource system. We have been given Anticipation which sort of creates the Shadow Orbs/Holy Power feeling. But it doesnt serve that much purpose. You can use it to get finishers into deeper insights for combat. Use it for better envenom us. But all of these gains feel very unexciting. I do also feel like there is potential for better combo point balance in general. Using Rupture or Evi below 5CPs just feels painful, and there are occassions during transitions or similar mechanics, where you may want only a few CPs to dump.

Assassination is a joke. Probably on of the biggest joke specs in the game. AOE is poor, using Rupture for energy is exhausting. But just spamming FoK till 5 CP and then CT would also be rather uninspired. The cleave adds some complexity in what is a hideously easy spec. Swapping targets and rupturing is interesting, with the reletionship with energy and envenom, it feels great. Single target is sad, it plays itself.

Combat. Bandits guile has potential if you could control it more. Delaying it with RS is a DPS loss most of the time. The fact that SS has such a higher energy cost makes BG even more horrible. The BRF itemization will help, but not much. Combat felt good with AoC, without it something is just missing.

Subtlety is actually one of the better specs. Hemo feels horrible to use in general, but it does have its use in target switching. Otherwise, I dont like the ability. In general this spec has a lot of decent tools you can use to eek out a little more DPS, creating a much higher skill ceiling. Seconds to matter with this spec, especially in the opener. Although I do agree with the sentiment that we have to try harder than most classes, I dont particularly believe its a bad thing. I actually think Subtlety is a standout spec in the game.

[cFortyfive]

Is this mainly a pvp concern ? Since pve wise I really don't know what else Blizzard is supposed to do.

[Sithalos]

I enjoy the hell out of my rogue. My damage is great

This is the funniest thing I've seen all day.

[cFortyfive]

This is the funniest thing I've seen all day.

Would you describe rogue damage as bad ?

[Koji2k11]

Would you describe rogue damage as bad ?

he doesnt have to logs do

[cFortyfive]

he doesnt have to logs do

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=90
Bad looks different to me but well.

[Estocire]

It would be nice if Sub did a bit more damage to compensate for positional requirements and a more difficult play style, but Rogue dps is not super bad. I actually really enjoy playing sub though and being able to duel spec as combat with almost the same gear is really nice and makes raiding more fun imo. PvP seems okay to me, but I'm a newb at it.

[Riptide]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=90
Bad looks different to me but well.

If you sort by ilvl, you see as gear gets better rogues get worse relative to most other classes. This has never been the case.

and yes sub should do more damage because a. rogues are a pure dmg dealer, b. it's one of the hardest rotations to optimize.

[cFortyfive]

If you sort by ilvl, you see as gear gets better rogues get worse relative to most other classes. This has never been the case.

At lower ilvl rogues are slightly behind dks. At higher ilvl slightly ahead. I admit I am not up to speed as far as rogue theory crafting is concerned so I don't have any idea how the long term scaling supposedly is but I don't feel that's particularly relevant when making statements about current performance. Obviously you could always deal more damage but I don't think it's looking as bleak as implied but well.

[T18Z]

This is bull, combat pressure is insane and they have basically 100% uptime on any target and red buff killing spree will take almost anything from 100->0% if they don't have a def cd that can be used while stunned ready.

But don't take my word for it, just check rogue representation, combat is currently the most represented dps spec (surpassed survival today I think) in 3v3 at 2,2k+.

Yeah, no.

Combat rogues are in a great spot at the moment, and we do have constant pressure, but don't lie and say we can 100-0 people in killing spree, that's such a blatant exaggeration. The only class that we can close to kill in a killing spree is another rogue, and we can do that during shadow dance too.

[Riptide]

At lower ilvl rogues are slightly behind dks. At higher ilvl slightly ahead. I admit I am not up to speed as far as rogue theory crafting is concerned so I don't have any idea how the long term scaling supposedly is but I don't feel that's particularly relevant when making statements about current performance. Obviously you could always deal more damage but I don't think it's looking as bleak as implied but well.

No, DK's are actually catching up to rogues as the ilvl increases. It is 100% relevant because as gear scales rogues will not scale as well as other classes. They drop ranks at every ilvl increase.

It had always been that rogues started off pretty meh and then got better with gear. That is most definitely not the case now. Blizzard will definitely address it later. It just might be in the form of set bonuses.