Ulduar raid design vs. current content

[cockaroo]

As far as fight mechanics, I think Blizzard did a brilliant job in BRF and even Highmaul. The fights were fun, and I have enjoyed them. However, I really miss the other-worldly raid design from an instance like Ulduar. The Algalon bonus boss, the way the hard modes were triggered is pretty cool. But when you go back and look at the artwork for that point in time. The algalon scene and opening door, the entrance to Vezak's lair, Freya's conservatory, Mimiron's train. It's very awe inspiring and beautiful/mystical. I feel like with SoO, Highmaul, and BRF, it's all been dirt, rock, ogres, orcs, fire, lava. I just really enjoy the darker side of wow, such as the classic evil ghost stuff in Karazan and naxx, to the other worldy stuff in Ulduar and even ICC.

I know WoW is a business, but I feel like the business model is getting too 'LEAN' oriented, that the art leniency and those extra touches are going out the window in place of content. I feel like a game such as WoW will suffer more on the content side of things when content is being forced out, or when it is held to a set of restrictions or rules. I feel like the devs who made ulduar had a lot of free-reign and creative rope. I just ran 25 heroic Ulduar again last night and it still felt special. Sure there's some nostalgia there, but the fights and design are still really cool to me. That algalon door when you open it, the Algalon role play, really tugs at the heart strings. (Seems like a lot of design went into making that door, when they could have just had it be a regular door that opens with a key. Would the devs get away with that now? "No need to put anything extra on it, it's just a door, just get the content out" is what I feel like it's come to)

Anyway, I'm not necessarily complaining or saying that things are bad now, but I just wanted to see other people's opinions on what I have said. I feel like the fight design is really great, but I feel like the instance design and those special touches are kind of missing. The content sort of feels forced in that respect I suppose.

I guess also I've never been a horde fan. I've always enjoyed the medieval buildings of the alliance, and the ghosty stuff in duskwood, the old dragon boss in the emerald dream, ulduar, karazan, the sinister plots in elewynn, deadmines, Naxx 40, and all that old school spooky ass stuff.

I wish some of that would be brought back into the game. The pandas and orc stuff just doesn't inspire me the same way. Like, when I killed Algalon, Lich King, and Yogg Saron, it truly felt like I was fighting for a cause. When I killed mythic Blackhand, it felt like I was killing a closeted, confused orc who was angry at the world because he had bad parents. I more-so felt bad for him than anything else.

[-Superman-]

The game peaked in Wrath.

[Dezminion]

True, the game did peak in WotLK in terms of subs, but in my honest opinion currently they are producing the best PvE-content ever. And on top on that, I think that trend (Good PvE) started at MoP, sure there were some lame'ish bosses (Whole HoF, Lei Shi), but still, in terms of intresting game play, they are doing SO well now.

[TheMediator]

When I killed mythic Blackhand, it felt like I was killing a closeted, confused orc who was angry at the world because he had bad parents.

Blackhand feels more intimidating than the Lich King to me. I mean, I felt such a lack of drive and intimidation to kill the Lich King I quit during TotC rather than riding it out, whereas I was just hungry, just HUNGRY to take down Blackhand. Blackhand was an epic as hell fight against the right hand of the Iron Horde, whereas Lich King... you're like, fighting undead vikings, and getting carried in the air by some weird bird Valkyrie people, and running away from ghosts and bird poop. How do you compare that to fighting Blackhand from the top to the bottom of the foundry in an epic, almost DBZ-esqe battle?

As far as Ulduar, Ulduar was cool because it was mysterious. But mysterious =/= threatening. Yogg was cooped up for what, millennia, what's the issue leaving him penned up in there for a little longer? Blackhand was an immediate threat - he almost took down Talador, and if you didn't beat him in the Foundry, he could very well come back for another round. They're not really comparable... we could have never gone to Ulduar and it would be been all well and good. There's no way we could realistically not have taken down Blackhand. We just couldn't ignore him.

[Tyrgannus]

The theme of Wrath was superior indeed. Theme is extremely important. Try as we might to just see bosses as loot pinatas and mechanics, you can't help but notice all the "lol pandas" and "moat orcs" complaints on the forums. A more engaging theme would breathe life into WoW

[Feindy]

The theme of Wrath was superior indeed. Theme is extremely important. Try as we might to just see bosses as loot pinatas and mechanics, you can't help but notice all the "lol pandas" and "moat orcs" complaints on the forums. A more engaging theme would breathe life into WoW

this, i loved highmaul because it was full of ogres and even the non-ogre bosses were cool. Compared to brf lol, full of fucking orcs

[Tyrgannus]

Blackhand feels more intimidating than the Lich King to me. I mean, I felt such a lack of drive and intimidation to kill the Lich King I quit during TotC rather than riding it out, whereas I was just hungry, just HUNGRY to take down Blackhand. Blackhand was an epic as hell fight against the right hand of the Iron Horde, whereas Lich King... you're like, fighting undead vikings, and getting carried in the air by some weird bird Valkyrie people, and running away from ghosts and bird poop. How do you compare that to fighting Blackhand from the top to the bottom of the foundry in an epic, almost DBZ-esqe battle?

As far as Ulduar, Ulduar was cool because it was mysterious. But mysterious =/= threatening. Yogg was cooped up for what, millennia, what's the issue leaving him penned up in there for a little longer? Blackhand was an immediate threat - he almost took down Talador, and if you didn't beat him in the Foundry, he could very well come back for another round. They're not really comparable... we could have never gone to Ulduar and it would be been all well and good. There's no way we could realistically not have taken down Blackhand. We just couldn't ignore him.

Blackhand almost took down Talador. The Lich King completely destroyed Lordearon and Quel'thalas
Blackhand fights you on multiple floors. The Lich King fights you on the top of a 2000 foot pillar of ice formed by Kil'jaedan himself.
Blackhand represents the military strength of the Iron Horde. The Lich King represents an unstoppable plague of death and endless recruitment to his side.


I just...I just can't see how you think Blackhand was more of a threat.

[cockaroo]

Blackhand feels more intimidating than the Lich King to me. I mean, I felt such a lack of drive and intimidation to kill the Lich King I quit during TotC rather than riding it out, whereas I was just hungry, just HUNGRY to take down Blackhand. Blackhand was an epic as hell fight against the right hand of the Iron Horde, whereas Lich King... you're like, fighting undead vikings, and getting carried in the air by some weird bird Valkyrie people, and running away from ghosts and bird poop. How do you compare that to fighting Blackhand from the top to the bottom of the foundry in an epic, almost DBZ-esqe battle?

As far as Ulduar, Ulduar was cool because it was mysterious. But mysterious =/= threatening. Yogg was cooped up for what, millennia, what's the issue leaving him penned up in there for a little longer? Blackhand was an immediate threat - he almost took down Talador, and if you didn't beat him in the Foundry, he could very well come back for another round. They're not really comparable... we could have never gone to Ulduar and it would be been all well and good. There's no way we could realistically not have taken down Blackhand. We just couldn't ignore him.

Nice to see other perspectives here. I agree with you about the blackhand fight, I like the fight design, however I think the LK fight design was unique and challenging as well, just maybe not as challenging as mythic blackhand. I guess I do like the mysterious side of things, that's why the karazan, duskwood, ulduar, etc really pull me in. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Sweetpeaz]

The theme of Wrath was superior indeed. Theme is extremely important. Try as we might to just see bosses as loot pinatas and mechanics, you can't help but notice all the "lol pandas" and "moat orcs" complaints on the forums. A more engaging theme would breathe life into WoW

The basis for every great expansion should be a great story.

TBC and WotLK had two of the best stories in the game.

Deathwing? Pandaria? Not really compelling. WoD had potential to be fantastic in terms of story, but it really fell short for me.

[Eon Drache]

Blackhand almost took down Talador. The Lich King completely destroyed Lordearon and Quel'thalas
Blackhand fights you on multiple floors. The Lich King fights you on the top of a 2000 foot pillar of ice formed by Kil'jaedan himself.
Blackhand represents the military strength of the Iron Horde. The Lich King represents an unstoppable plague of death and endless recruitment to his side.


I just...I just can't see how you think Blackhand was more of a threat.

To be fair all the major plot points that Arthas achieved were not achieved in the WoW lore but rather in Warcraft. If we go by that I believe it was Blackhand that was leading when Stormwind fell during the first war.

In WoW Arthas was always playing with us rather than appearing as a threat. He was also stopped by 1 man with a sword after destroying the entire group and laughing at our best efforts? Hardly unstoppable.

[TheMediator]

I just...I just can't see how you think Blackhand was more of a threat.

Because Blackhand wanted to break us, plain and simple. The Lich King got his ass kicked and dicked around left and right because of his stupid 'master plan'. Arthas was a bad ass in WC3 but WoW really watered him down, turned him into a big pussy to be convenient for the player. Blackhand didn't hold back on us like a tool, and only a combination of heroes focusing on him was able to send him packing (but not without loss on our side).

I certainly think the Scourge as a whole was more threatening than the Iron Horde, sure, but in terms of leadership, Blackhand just seems a hell of a lot more intimidating (and it shows in their fights in my opinion, most of the Blackhand fight was him alone against your entire raid, and you had to duck and run to avoid his devastation).

[Arbs]

I wish Normal & Heroic were the same thing, but had the Ulduar mechanic. Than you would have LFR, N/H & Mythic

Normal & Heroic are bascially the same thing just Heroic hits harder.

[Heffladin]

He was also stopped by 1 man with a sword after destroying the entire group and laughing at our best efforts? Hardly unstoppable.

He channeled the holy light and shattered it with the most powerful lightinfused weapon there is in warcraft? Hardly just any man with any sword.

The real reason why wrath is so revered is because how they set it up. not only was the theme great, it had appearances from bosses outside of the raids so it kind of built up to it, and we geared up by actually defeating these raids instead of getting burnt out with raid finder or single player activities like garrisons/legendary quests.

[TheMediator]

it had appearances from bosses outside of the raids so it kind of built up to it

You mean, like how WoD has introduced a whole host of characters outside the raids through the story quests as you level? In an organic way too, not just them showing up out of the blue and slinging some insults at us before vanishing into some weird randomly appearing death gate thing.

[shoc]

The basis for every great expansion should be a great story.

TBC and WotLK had two of the best stories in the game.

Deathwing? Pandaria? Not really compelling. WoD had potential to be fantastic in terms of story, but it really fell short for me.

You can't honestly believe that TBC had anywhere close to a half decent story. Literally zero plot development leading up to the systematic elimination of important plot characters.

They turned Illidan into a senselessly evil Megalomaniac. They turned Lady Vashj in to a senselessly evil Megalomaniac.
They turned Kael into a senselessly evil Megalomaniac.
They straight up wasted Archimonde and Kil'jaeden as end bosses when entire expansions could have revolved around both of them.

TBC was a lore tragedy, so many excellent characters with so much potential just pissed away without any thought. It didn't help that TBC was just completely devoid of any actual cohesive storyline, it was just a mess of bad storytelling and sometimes just a lack of storytelling altogether.

[Gevoth]

Yeah I'm still amazed by Mimiron's room every time I run Ulduar for the mount. The scale of it the room; including outside of the center where the fight actually takes place, and level of detail are pretty impressive to me. I often take the train instead of teleporting because it's just very cool. But I think the theme of Ulduar actually plays a big part in this. ICC was not so impressive to me. ToC was not impressive at all for obvious reasons. That instance was a test of sorts to see how far they could reduce the instance itself with the only real detail being in the bosses themselves and whether or not players would respond positively to such a raid setting. However single boss rooms like EoE were pretty cool to me at the time too.

I'd also like to point out that I do find some raids very cool despite being dark/drab. Ones like BoT and BWD I feel had a great deal of detail in the instance themselves along side fun bosses that didn't push the mechanic envelope too far for my taste. Although I would say I found both of those to be quite a bit smaller than I would like.

Kara would still be up there in my top 3 raids because of the size of the place. It's a raid that felt like tower climb it is. Reminiscent of very old Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy tower climbs. And again bosses had mechanics I found interesting and entertaining while still keeping it simple.

Up until WotLK my favorite part of the game was 5man dungeons. Because they often had this same dungeon crawler feel that I love. Some of my all time favorites were Botanica, Dire Maul north, Shadow Labyrinth, original Scholomance, and Arcatraz. The similarities in most of these are lengthy dungeons with many distinguished rooms, unique trash before most bosses, and bosses with a few fun mechanics that weren't overly complex. Maraudon was my favorite while leveling the first time.

Currently my favorite fights are Hanz/Fronz and Thogar. Both fights where the number of mechanics isn't too high and the environmental detail is in a way. I do like the art in the current raid but it is rather dark and at times one room can feel too similar to most of the others.

Another cool place to bring up is Magtheridon's Lair and the way it was tied with the Blood Furnace. Mag's Lair was cool visually and mechanically to me, but I also loved the fact that you could see and hear him while in the Blood Furnace.

Highmaul I do find visually appealing and some of the mechanics are pretty neat, but I don't recognize much difference between Twin's room, Imperator's room, and Kor'ragh's. There is a bit of a size difference obviously, but the three rooms are strikingly similar for my taste.

Anyhow I suppose I'm rambling now...

[Warlord Booty]

Meh, I was NOT a fan of Ulduar at all. Just felt dull and uninspiring to me. Like, they tried to cram a bunch of themes into tiny rooms.

[-Superman-]

Meh, I was NOT a fan of Ulduar at all. Just felt dull and uninspiring to me. Like, they tried to cram a bunch of themes into tiny rooms.

I feel the same way about all of Draenor.

[TheMediator]

They straight up wasted Archimonde and Kil'jaeden as end bosses when entire expansions could have revolved around both of them.

They didn't wasted Archimonde... he had WC3 devoted to him. We just went back in time and participated in those events outside of their story context.

[DarkTZeratul]

They straight up wasted Archimonde and Kil'jaeden as end bosses when entire expansions could have revolved around both of them.

Being that Archimonde was already dead and Kil'jaeden didn't die, I can't see how either of them were wasted.