Frost consistently the weakest spec in the game?

[roarfacelol]

Unholy was much better in 5.4, though. For some reason nobody played Unholy anyway.

People started to play more UH closer to the end cause they realized that UH benefits more from gear. Alot of people were also probably too lazy to swap back to DW cause it was just HB HB HB HB HB HB FS FS FS FS and sometimes with the occasional PS or DnD. It was just such an easy spec to play.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

I'm confused, you are talking about Frost DK being the WORST spec in the entire video game, or just always behind Unholy?
Either way, couldn't be more false.
All last expansion Frost was VERY competitive, especially for AOE (in CM especially).
Even during Cata and Wrath Frost was fine.
There are a dozen specs that are way worse.

Even now, Frost can be played well. Frost DK can still do very good AOE, especially in CM.

[Sunnydee]

Either way, couldn't be more false.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7

[SoulForge]

They fixed Ele shaman problems really easily. Crit sucked at the start then it got a new interaction with LvB where LvB has a chance equal to your crit chance to fire off multistrike LvBs or something. Don't see why something like that can't be done for Obliterate/Frost strike (just tone it down or make it not work in pvp)

Wait what?

Sure it works if you don't have to move often but once you start hitting mythics (Kargath Bladefist really comes to mind here) then your DPS tanks since you can't do much while moving.

OT; I've not seen any Frost DK's to be fair this expansion. All the ones I have raided with thus far have been Unholy. And based on sims there is a good reason for that. I feel the pain for those wanting to play frost. I play enhancement shaman even with our crap stats on sims.

[Schizoide]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7

There's a fair bit of sample bias in that as Frost has been very weak for this entire expansion. There's no doubt that it is substantially behind Unholy. Whether it's the worst spec in the entire game... who can say? Difficult to prove if gladiator, frost DK, or frost mage are the worst. All are definitely terrible, though.

It's interesting that sample bias doesn't always apply. In 5.4, Frost had many more parses than Unholy. It was a more popular spec. But Unholy substantially outperformed Frost in 5.4 also.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7

The overall statistics doesn't really work for frost considering no frost DK's have killed BH Mythic. They're only bottom on Thogar and Iron Maidens. But yeah. They're still pretty low on average on the fights, not bottom though.

[Logwyn]

Looking at the logs if this is a set of good stats... I feel sorry for Rogues. At least with a DK you can spec Unholy and have something that can put out numbers.

[Deleted]

Looking at the logs if this is a set of good stats... I feel sorry for Rogues. At least with a DK you can spec Unholy and have something that can put out numbers.

If DPS was the only thing that mattered I'd agree. But they're important in other ways

[RuneDK]

From what I've heard on the current PTR 2H frost outshines unholy on ST

how many fights are truly ST though?

- - - Updated - - -

Until they mechanically fix frost I am most likely remained unsubbed...Not because I hate unholy but simply because the developers have continually said that nothing is wrong with frost scaling/mechanics when players have proven them wrong by numbers and projecting how the spec will play out for the past three expansions...Only so much stupid is worth dealing with.

[Deleted]

Looking at the logs if this is a set of good stats... I feel sorry for Rogues. At least with a DK you can spec Unholy and have something that can put out numbers.

The logs make Rogues of all specs and Fire/Arcane look worse, and Unholy better, than they actually are because it aggregates their scores across all fights. Unholy is the spec of choice for every fight in the instance, while Combat/Sub and Fire/Arcane is largely a choice that depends on the individual fight, and thus leads to lower aggregate scores. If you look at the statistics for say, Gruul, instead, you get the following:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7#boss=1691

Clearly, Sub performs very well at the moment, beaten only by two hunter and mage specs that I think we can all agree are long overdue for a sizeable nerf. Similar results are seen on fights with heavy cleave for Combat, but because the choice between the two specs is so binary based on fight (i.e you never, ever, EVER play Combat on Blackhand unless you simply don't care any more), the aggregate scores across all fights for the Rogue specs are weaker than the aggregate score for Unholy. And that, kids, is why aggregate scores are a trap statistic.

[Raiju]

The logs make Rogues of all specs and Fire/Arcane look worse, and Unholy better, than they actually are because it aggregates their scores across all fights. Unholy is the spec of choice for every fight in the instance, while Combat/Sub and Fire/Arcane is largely a choice that depends on the individual fight, and thus leads to lower aggregate scores. If you look at the statistics for say, Gruul, instead, you get the following:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7#boss=1691

Clearly, Sub performs very well at the moment, beaten only by two hunter and mage specs that I think we can all agree are long overdue for a sizeable nerf. Similar results are seen on fights with heavy cleave for Combat, but because the choice between the two specs is so binary based on fight (i.e you never, ever, EVER play Combat on Blackhand unless you simply don't care any more), the aggregate scores across all fights for the Rogue specs are weaker than the aggregate score for Unholy. And that, kids, is why aggregate scores are a trap statistic.

But but... it says what I wanted it to say!

[Fenrkyr]

The presence of one particular raid tier where frost wasn't awful doesn't invalidate my point.

The point is, when you consider the aggregate performance of all DPS specs over the last 10-12 raid tiers, is there any spec that would post a lower score? The only specs I can think of that would be even remotely close would be arms and subtlety, but both of those are typically very good in PVP. In contrast, frost has never been good in PVP until this season.

[Deleted]

Unholy was much better in 5.4, though. For some reason nobody played Unholy anyway.

It was once it had the insane buff to Unholy Might.

What was it? 10 -> 35%?

[Fenrkyr]

how many fights are truly ST though?

- - - Updated - - -

Until they mechanically fix frost I am most likely remained unsubbed...Not because I hate unholy but simply because the developers have continually said that nothing is wrong with frost scaling/mechanics when players have proven them wrong by numbers and projecting how the spec will play out for the past three expansions...Only so much stupid is worth dealing with.

One of the devs set out a Tweet during beta saying something along the lines that frost's poor damage scaling with item level increases wasn't really a problem because they could just buff the spec every raid tier Even if they did just that, which we know isn't the case (cough, 6.1, cough), it still leaves the spec in a terrible position for all but the top few dozen guilds in the world.

[Deleted]

But but... it says what I wanted it to say!

You know what they say - there are three types of lies. Lies, damn lies, and statistics

Edit: @Antenora, the buff was roughly of that size, but it should be pointed out that Unholy was competitive enough that both of Method's DKs played it for progress BEFORE the buff went out. If I remember correctly, part of the issue was that even with Fabled Feather of Ji'kun nerfed (and Festerblight thus in a weaker state than in ToT), the Unholy simcraft module was in a less-than-excellent state at the time and significantly understated the strength of Unholy due to a bad APL.

[unbound]

Funny, the only spec worse than Frost DK is Frost Mage. Maybe Blizzard is actually afraid of the cold...

[Ktz385]

The overall statistics doesn't really work for frost considering no frost DK's have killed BH Mythic. They're only bottom on Thogar and Iron Maidens. But yeah. They're still pretty low on average on the fights, not bottom though.

Is that a challenge? Going frost this week boys. Also, this thread is gonna start another drought in California.

[Sunnydee]

Is that a challenge? Going frost this week boys. Also, this thread is gonna start another drought in California.

Im game aswell! atleast for farm xD

[kary]

Frost will never be balanced as long as ToT/MoM exists. That's really the long and short of it.

@Ktz, we shall discuss results over boars as is the usual.

[RuneDK]

Frost will never be balanced as long as ToT/MoM exists. That's really the long and short of it.

Those are partly to blame, but killing machine as is, is also one of the main factors of it.