Must read for anyone interested in the consensus debate: The Alcohol Blackout

[Deleted]

Hey guys,

I was browsing around longreads.com (huge recommendation if you have some time to spare and want to read examples of good journalism) and came across a really good op-ed about consent and alcohol, written by a former alcoholic student who suffered blackouts multiple times and would end up in bed with someone she had no recollection off, exactly the type of case that is now being so thoroughly scrutenized.
http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-cult...?Src=longreads

With how much discussion has been going on in this forum about it I thought this was a really fair and balanced account without some of the rabid extremism that both sides on this issue display.

I know that this article is 8600 words long, so it might be a bit too much for some of the rampant cases of add on this forum, but I would urge everyone interested in a nuanced perspective to make an effort.

My opinion after having read it is mostly positive, with a few slight negatives.

Most notably is the fact that she talks around the main issue: just what exactly is a workable (policy) definition of affirmative consent (and therefore what rape is) when either of the parties are intoxicated:

''Whether this sounds like delicious freedom or reckless danger probably depends a lot on your own experience with these situations. But is such sex rape? I wouldn’t say so, but I’m aware other people disagree, and at the rate this conversation is shape-shifting, upturning old assumptions and placing them in a new light, I wouldn’t be surprised if I disagreed with me too somewhere down the line. One of the great luxuries of a free society is the ability to change your mind''

My second point is the fact that, while she does (shortly) adress the issue of preventative measures that women can take to avoid being raped and the recent backlash that there has been against people in favor of those, she doesn't address the main point in that narrative (imo): A woman isn't responsible for being raped if she is drunk/alone/dressed skimpy, however she could have taken steps to prevent the chance of it happening. This imo isn't victim blaming but more giving people a sense of agency when it comes to their own actions rather than passive victims.

Her main point is being summarized really well in the below (slightly long) quote:

''Consent and alcohol make tricky bedfellows. The reason I liked getting drunk was because it altered my consent: it changed what I would say yes to. Not just in the bedroom but in every room and corridor that led into the squinting light. Say yes to adventure, say yes to risk, say yes to karaoke and pool parties and arguments with men, say yes to a life without fear, even though such a life is never possible. Still, there is a point at which someone who has drunk too much cannot, legally, consent to sex. So what is that line, exactly? And if your partner has been drinking all night too, how can he or she detect it? For that matter, has your partner passed the point of consent too? ''


Before you jump to your respond buttons buttons and spout vitriol because you (dis)agree over a certain paragraph, please try to read the whole article first.

Comments within 20 minutes of this post arn't allowed

[unbound]

A woman isn't responsible for being raped if she is drunk/alone/dressed skimpy, however she could have taken steps to prevent the chance of it happening. This imo isn't victim blaming but more giving people a sense of agency when it comes to their own actions rather than passive victims.

The problem right here is that it is, in fact, victim blaming.

Is it okay for me to beat the crap out of my children if they talk back to me? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to quickly grab money out of someone's hand just because they had it out? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to have sex with a woman just because she's pliable (aka drunk), dressed skimpily or alone? Of course not.

Is it your fault you were robbed by the guy in the mask with a gun? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to run over the kids in the street that are being annoying? Of course not.

Seriously. People need to stop rationalizing bad behavior as being the fault of the victim. End of discussion.

Should women take precautions? Yes. And the same is true in all of the other situations. But at no point is it ever the fault of the victim. Be an adult and start acting like an adult.

[Independent voter]

Raise the drinking age for women to 25, problem solved.

[Deleted]

Raise the drinking age for women to 25, problem solved.

Except the vast majority of college kids are underage and are still finding ways to get drunk

- - - Updated - - -

The problem right here is that it is, in fact, victim blaming.

Is it okay for me to beat the crap out of my children if they talk back to me? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to quickly grab money out of someone's hand just because they had it out? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to have sex with a woman just because she's pliable (aka drunk), dressed skimpily or alone? Of course not.

Is it your fault you were robbed by the guy in the mask with a gun? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to run over the kids in the street that are being annoying? Of course not.

Seriously. People need to stop rationalizing bad behavior as being the fault of the victim. End of discussion.

Should women take precautions? Yes. And the same is true in all of the other situations. But at no point is it ever the fault of the victim. Be an adult and start acting like an adult.

I say that the woman isn't responsible, that means per definition that I am not victim blaming and I agree that she should take precautions, so I really don't see how much we differ in opinion.

Having said that, did you really manage to read the entire article in under 10 minutes?

[Dhrizzle]

The problem right here is that it is, in fact, victim blaming.

Is it okay for me to beat the crap out of my children if they talk back to me? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to quickly grab money out of someone's hand just because they had it out? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to have sex with a woman just because she's pliable (aka drunk), dressed skimpily or alone? Of course not.

Is it your fault you were robbed by the guy in the mask with a gun? Of course not.

Is it okay for me to run over the kids in the street that are being annoying? Of course not.

Seriously. People need to stop rationalizing bad behavior as being the fault of the victim. End of discussion.

Should women take precautions? Yes. And the same is true in all of the other situations. But at no point is it ever the fault of the victim. Be an adult and start acting like an adult.

No it isn't victim blaming. Saying there are precautions you can take to reduce the chance of being a victim of crime does not in any way excuse the criminals.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW you might want to change the thread title, the word you're looking for is "Consent."

Speaking of which, here's a video that's mostly about tea.

[Gheld]

I'm sorry... I know this is going to cause some controversy here....

But everybody over the age of 16 knows that getting extremely drunk around a bunch of people you barely know is a bad idea.

Is rape still wrong? Yeah.

But it's not fucking victim blaming. I have zero sympathy for somebody who goes to some drinking party, surrounded by a bunch of people who are eager to stick their dick in somethng, whom they barely know and are getting shit-hammered. Nobody goes to a drinking party to talk about politics. Getting laid is priority #1 on everybodies list there.

If they somehow were sheltered by their parents to the point that they are somehow THAT naive...then they get like 1/100th fragment of sympathy.

If the person is administered an illegal date rape drug... yeah, that deserves some sympathy.

But there's a reasn this cliche is all over the fucking everything... Because that's what fucking happens.

I used to live in the most economically disadvantaged area of my city... Sometimes I had to park down the other street because it was snow removal night on my street... Did I go taking a short cut down a dark alleyway? No. Because it's fucking stupid to walk alone down an alleyway at night where people turn up dead in fucking dumpsters.

[Deleted]

suffered blackouts

You make it sound like it's a seizure or something. Memories aren't being created properly when you're drunk enough, so "memory loss" in some form is quite normal and typical of drinking. That is, if you come from a drinking culture, of course, and know what it is to actually drink.

Saying you "suffer" from blackouts is basically the same as saying you "suffer" from not drinking enough.

[Dhrizzle]

I'm sorry... I know this is going to cause some controversy here....

But everybody over the age of 16 knows that getting extremely drunk around a bunch of people you barely know is a bad idea.

Is rape still wrong? Yeah.

But it's not fucking victim blaming. I have zero sympathy for somebody who goes to some drinking party, surrounded by a bunch of people who are eager to stick their dick in somethng, whom they barely know and are getting shit-hammered. Nobody goes to a drinking party to talk about politics. Getting laid is priority #1 on everybodies list there.

If they somehow were sheltered by their parents to the point that they are somehow THAT naive...then they get like 1/100th fragment of sympathy.

If the person is administered an illegal date rape drug... yeah, that deserves some sympathy.

But there's a reasn this cliche is all over the fucking everything... Because that's what fucking happens.

It sounds like you hung out with some pretty shitty people, in my partying days if someone got too drunk we just used to draw on their faces and tie their shoes together.

I used to live in the most economically disadvantaged area of my city... Sometimes I had to park down the other street because it was snow removal night on my street... Did I go taking a short cut down a dark alleyway? No. Because it's fucking stupid to walk alone down an alleyway at night where people turn up dead in fucking dumpsters.

Yeah, this is something that I would call a "sensible precaution" rather than "victim-blaming," and it could be applied to other types of crime (non-sexual assault, robbery.)

[Gheld]

It sounds like you hung out with some pretty shitty people, in my partying days if someone got too drunk we just used to draw on their faces and tie their shoes together.



Yeah, this is something that I would call a "sensible precaution" rather than "victim-blaming," and it could be applied to other types of crime (non-sexual assault, robbery.)

Why can't sensible precaution apply to sexual assault?

[Deleted]

You make it sound like it's a seizure or something. Memories aren't being created properly when you're drunk enough, so "memory loss" in some form is quite normal and typical of drinking. That is, if you come from a drinking culture, of course, and know what it is to actually drink.

Saying you "suffer" from blackouts is basically the same as saying you "suffer" from not drinking enough.

Actually, if you read the article, it does say that some people are a lot more prone to blackouts than others and it is far from ''normal'' so yes, you can suffer from it.

Though I agree that of course the higher your BAC the higher the chances of getting blackouts, though I feel like we are kinda arguing semantics

[Gheld]

It's just sad..when it turns out that these frat parties weren't all about reading goosebumps to each other and making smores.

Where has the innocence of our college students gone.

[Endus]

I'm sorry... I know this is going to cause some controversy here....

But everybody over the age of 16 knows that getting extremely drunk around a bunch of people you barely know is a bad idea.

Is rape still wrong? Yeah.

But it's not fucking victim blaming. I have zero sympathy for somebody who goes to some drinking party, surrounded by a bunch of people who are eager to stick their dick in somethng, whom they barely know and are getting shit-hammered. Nobody goes to a drinking party to talk about politics. Getting laid is priority #1 on everybodies list there.

What you're doing here is precisely victim-blaming. You're blaming the rape victim for being raped, based on decisions that she made that you think were bad decisions.

The problem with your argument is that, while getting blackout drunk around people you don't know is a bad idea, it's a bad idea because of the number of rapists there are. It isn't suddenly less of a crime just because it's predominant enough to create identifiable risk factors. And the blame is still entirely on the rapists who are the entire reason for the danger, in the first place.

I used to live in the most economically disadvantaged area of my city... Sometimes I had to park down the other street because it was snow removal night on my street... Did I go taking a short cut down a dark alleyway? No. Because it's fucking stupid to walk alone down an alleyway at night where people turn up dead in fucking dumpsters.

Case in point; you're more interested in blaming innocent people for walking down a dark alley than you are in doing anything about the criminals who might take that opportunity.

I've walked down plenty of alleyways, here in Canada. Muggings really don't happen very often, at all, even in the big cities like Toronto. If your city isn't like that, then maybe you need to take a moment to consider why, since it's not a necessary fact of life in an urban center.

Those people who end up in dumpsters; do the cops in your city say "oh well, shouldn't have walked down that dark alley, not even a crime since the guy was stupid"? No. That's insane. It's still a crime. The people at fault are the murderers, not their victim. Deflecting to blame the victim is just an attempt to avoid acknowledging the real problem, and the need to do something about it.

[tj119]

Bad people are out there, you are responsible for your own body and own alcohol intake. If you get blackout drunk it is your fault and whatever happens to you unfortunately could have been avoided with self control. Rape is bad yes, but putting yourself in that potential situation is your own stupidity.

[Dextroden]

Why can't sensible precaution apply to sexual assault?

Honestly, I'm with you. If you drink to passing out with strangers and wake up to a missing wallet and keys, that was stupid. No one deserves to be robbed, but it's still fucking stupid.

[Deleted]

Actually, if you read the article, it does say that some people are a lot more prone to blackouts than others and it is far from ''normal'' so yes, you can suffer from it.

Though I agree that of course the higher your BAC the higher the chances of getting blackouts, though I feel like we are kinda arguing semantics

There's a reason the term "blackout drunk" exists. If you can remember shit the next day perfectly, then you didn't drink enough. It's "normal" in a society that tends to drink themselves unconscious. It's not normal if you consider "drinking" to be a couple glasses of wine and then to bed.

Also, as an aside, the approach to "alcoholism" in the US is a bit weird anyway. Most people who are considered "alcoholics" in the US would be normal people in Finland, and also the treatment of said "alcoholism" there isn't exactly something I'd consider top notch; giving up alcohol completely being used as a must for all of those people, and then having to "give in to a higher power" or some other religious nonsense.

So yeah, I didn't read that article. I've got more than enough personal experience on the matter, and I think we Finns know our alcoholism pretty well.

Besides most of this "alcoholism" and "alcohol addiction" has actually most likely nothing to do with addiction at all, but we can use the rat park study for this as well; it's not the substance, it's the environment. I personally consider myself an escapist, which is much closer to the truth for most people, and supports the rat park study completely. Alcohol does not make you permanently addicted.

Watch this:



Applies to alcohol as well.

[Endus]

Honestly, I'm with you. If you drink to passing out with strangers and wake up to a missing wallet and keys, that was stupid. No one deserves to be robbed, but it's still fucking stupid.

Does it mean you weren't robbed? Does it mean the person who robbed you is somehow less to blame? No? Then there's no point in bringing it up.

Victims of crime aren't partly responsible for being victimized.

[Gheld]

What you're doing here is precisely victim-blaming. You're blaming the rape victim for being raped, based on decisions that she made that you think were bad decisions.

The problem with your argument is that, while getting blackout drunk around people you don't know is a bad idea, it's a bad idea because of the number of rapists there are. It isn't suddenly less of a crime just because it's predominant enough to create identifiable risk factors. And the blame is still entirely on the rapists who are the entire reason for the danger, in the first place.

I actually said none of that. I said I have no sympathy for somebody who makes stupid decisions. Raping somebody should still have the exact same legal reprecusions than if the victim didn't do anything stupid. A kid who takes 20 feet of air on a half pipe with his skateboard and ends up with his shin bones sticking through his skin still should receive medical attention. But it serves them fucking right.

Case in point; you're more interested in blaming innocent people for walking down a dark alley than you are in doing anything about the criminals who might take that opportunity.

I've walked down plenty of alleyways, here in Canada. Muggings really don't happen very often, at all, even in the big cities like Toronto. If your city isn't like that, then maybe you need to take a moment to consider why, since it's not a necessary fact of life in an urban center.

Those people who end up in dumpsters; do the cops in your city say "oh well, shouldn't have walked down that dark alley, not even a crime since the guy was stupid"? No. That's insane. It's still a crime. The people at fault are the murderers, not their victim. Deflecting to blame the victim is just an attempt to avoid acknowledging the real problem, and the need to do something about it.

No I'm more interested in living in a properly functioning society. People who do stupid shit and thus require the aid of society create an unnecessary burden on society and tie up resources that could otherwise be used to aid people who are victims of fortuitous circumstances.

[Endus]

I actually said none of that. I said I have no sympathy for somebody who makes stupid decisions. Raping somebody should still have the exact same legal reprecusions than if the victim didn't do anything stupid. A kid who takes 20 feet of air on a half pipe with his skateboard and ends up with his shin bones sticking through his skin still should receive medical attention. But it serves them fucking right.

Classy. Saying that women deserve to get raped, for daring to get drunk in public. Since I really can't see any other way that "serves them fucking right" could possibly be taken.

[Revi]

Does it mean you weren't robbed? Does it mean the person who robbed you is somehow less to blame? No? Then there's no point in bringing it up.

Victims of crime aren't partly responsible for being victimized.

I don't think anyone is saying it diminishes the crime at all. It's an annoying aspect of your position to be unable to make a distinction between lessening the severity of the crime/shifting blame of the crime, and saying someone was irresponsible for putting themselves in a position with greatly elevated risk.

If I'm robbed, I'm robbed. What I did before that doesn't make me any less robbed. But if I left the house with the front door open, that was still an idiotic thing to do and people are justified in saying so.

[Dextroden]

Does it mean you weren't robbed? Does it mean the person who robbed you is somehow less to blame? No? Then there's no point in bringing it up.

Victims of crime aren't partly responsible for being victimized.

You did something stupid. You had a higher chance of something ,that had no business happening, happen. It's like leaving your phone in public. You don't deserve to have it taken, but that fucking helped it happen.

Oh right. I forgot drunk driving isn't a thing. Not your fault you plowed into a telephone pole.