Fury Legion Discussion

[regularspecial]

Too early to say until we see how the bigger nodes play out (uptimes, proc rates, etc), but with all the talents buffing RB, Enrage and Rampage, I feel like the optimal build is going to end up UqT, Enraging Blows and Carnage. As of right now, the damage of Heroic Strike and Frenzy just don't compare. While I really want to like Frenzy's Haste boost, it just doesn't seem like enough to balance out the loss of rage income for Carnage.

Going to be interesting to see how balance plays out from here on in though. I really hope a few of the artifact talents get changed too. If the extra HP is meant to balance out the Enrage detriment, I think it's really shitty that we have to give up 3 upgrades for it. I have a hard time believing it's in addition to the +30% HP we are supposed to have, I feel like that is just too much.

I suppose they came through with their "different playstyle talent choices" at least.

Taking all the rage related talents turns us into a rage battery. I suppose you could go another route and get avatar/OP instead of the bonus 50%, but where would you even put OP in your rotation?

Avatar is a nice CD, but it's competing with more rage from all sources, including AA, which are coming very frequently because of our new enrage, and then that bonus 50% has such good synergy with UQT and enraged blows.

Bladestorm will obviously be chosen on fights that it'll shine on, but frenzy runs into the same problem as OP, except you have to dedicate 5 globals to it; when compared to our already most efficient attack becoming a FUCKING RAGE GENERATOR, it seems meh at best.

Into the fray, I like the mechanic but an entire talent for 25% haste at best. In any situation where you're seeing that many targets, they aren't going to be alive for long, meaning that 25% uptime is going to be pitiful in any real encounter. On a cleave fight we're looking at 10% haste, and even on a council fight there's no way all 3/4 targets are within 10 yards of you.

I mean, yea, we've got a lot of choices and most of them seem really fun, but our basic rotation is so enhanced by some of these talents, how could you possibly find the globals to fit in 5 frenzies? Why dedicate a global to DR for a very short dmg bonus, when you can take carnage and make our rage dump even better.

The only talent I'm unsure about is reckless abandon. 30 sec reck seems fun. A full rage bar is going to give us two rampages, and they'll fit within that 5sec window perfectly.

I really want to know what the conversation rate for dmg per rage consumed carnage is going to give.

[LordSpaztic]

I feel like all pretense of Haste stacking is just dead. Haste does two things for us; Lower GCD, and Increased Rage Generation.
With Enrage being a Straight Attack Speed buff, it still acts as pseudo Haste, as it increases our Rage Generation, just not GCD.
More or less, we also have a ton of pure Haste Buffs; Frenzy/Into the Fray. Which either one provides HALF of our Soft Cap of Haste. (50%).
We also have a ton of talents that diminish the Value of Haste by increasing our Rage Generation. (Endless Rage, Enraging Blows, Unquenchable Thirst, Uncontrolled Rage, Focus in Chaos, Odyn's Champion, Rage of the Valarjar, Juggernaut)

This is also compounded by our abilities. We only spend rage on 2 abilities baseline. Raging Blow and Rampage. We can further spec into 2 more; Overpower and Heroic Strike but at the cost of loosing more Rage Generation. Lastly, we are not a GCD capped spec, if Rampage works like Flurry of Xuen then we will certainly have open GCDs.
Having open GCDs further diminishes Haste's value.

While this is beta, we also have to consider how limited our artifacts are; Currently (Intentional or not) there are no slots that increase the damage of Talent related abilities (Heroic Strike/Overpower namely) which further is going to push us towards more rage generation talents unless said abilities do stupid damage in comparison to baseline abilities that are going to be increased by 6-12%.

As for Artifact itself, I don't have many complaints outside of balance. My only issue is how strong the Elite powers are. There will be some poor saps who will try to branch out, or max out other talents instead of rushing for Elite ones. I fully understand overtime we will have it fully unlocked, but how long is overtime? And is pugging / dealing with people who just don't get the Elite powers going to be dreadful in the mean time?

My last thought is I'm tired. TIRED. of going back and forth on concepts, flavor, and mechanics. Seething Rage pisses me off. We finally got Enrage Regeneration in a place where it isn't crap, or harmful to use. And now we're going back, but hey we can spec out of it. I feel overall my character's power hasn't grown or advanced. Just stagnated. And our Damage Taken increase stands out like a sore fucking thumb after looking at all the relics. Most classes is getting SOME sort of passive DR. SOMEWHERE.
Frozen Skin (Frost DK)
Deadly Durability (Unholy DK)
Bladed Feathers (Balance)
Protection of Thunderspark (Beast Mastery)
Survival of the Fittist (Marksmanship)
Embrace of the Wild (Survival)
Archmage's Fortitude (Arcane)
Molten Skin (Fire)
Permafrost (Frost)
Deflection (Retribution)
Embrace the Shadows (Assassination)
Cursed Leather (Outlaw)
Ghost Armor (Subtley)

The only ones that don't are:
Light on your Feet (Windwalker)
6% Extra Dodge Chance
Protection of the Elements / Shamanistic Healing (Elemental)
CD based DR, and Auto Heal
Shadowpriest get a Bunch of Healing/Disperse enhancements
Just read the Artifact Tree
Warlocks being tied to Drain Life.

That is still a ton of classes/specs that getting pure DR from their already not taking extra damage state. When beta/alpha forums appear. We need to push hard to get this redundant shit fixed. It's not fun knowing you take more damage than other classes. It's not noticeable to any layman. It makes us a joke in PvP. It punishes the player for playing correctly. It hurts ourselves and our Mythic raid teams being a liability.

[regularspecial]

While most other classes get a flat damage DR, we're getting another health increase while enraged.

It may not be as powerful, but with them wanting us to have more health instead of taking less damage, I don't see it changing.

They'll tune that number until we're roughly in the same boat as everyone else; it isn't pretty but if they accomplish the same thing, Blizz will be content with it.

As for ER being lame, it's the only appealing choice for that tier. The DR on charge is next to useless, and while the reduced CD on HL is nice, unless a fight has mechanics that require it being of use every 30 seconds, why wouldn't you want a 1min 50% health? Does it suck having to spec it down to make it not consume enrage? It sucks a lot, but we're going to be taking that talent anyway.

In a perfect world second wind would be on that tier, and toss bounding strike into SW's spot. It somewhat deserves to be next to double time as a mobility talent.

Even if you move SW, 1min 50% health is still the clear winner.

[Deleted]

Too early to say until we see how the bigger nodes play out (uptimes, proc rates, etc), but with all the talents buffing RB, Enrage and Rampage, I feel like the optimal build is going to end up UqT, Enraging Blows and Carnage. As of right now, the damage of Heroic Strike and Frenzy just don't compare. While I really want to like Frenzy's Haste boost, it just doesn't seem like enough to balance out the loss of rage income for Carnage.

Going to be interesting to see how balance plays out from here on in though. I really hope a few of the artifact talents get changed too. If the extra HP is meant to balance out the Enrage detriment, I think it's really shitty that we have to give up 3 upgrades for it. I have a hard time believing it's in addition to the +30% HP we are supposed to have, I feel like that is just too much.

Well as I said. It was out of boredom and I kinda like doing that early-on stuff, just for the sake of it.

So, basically under my circumstances on Traits, I'd look like that:

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent#MwxI20
http://beta.wowdb.com/artifact-calculator#GAQRAwzBwA

Honestly, I wouldn't mind it. Just... looking at it and trying to envision that playstyle, looks... incredibly dull, but on the other side it makes sense.

About that HP Buff... I don't know. They either changed the name of the datamined spell then, or it is indeed another HP Buff on top of the one we already get. Only that one is permanent and the other kicks in upon Enraging. I honestly forgot about the 30% Damage taken those last few days. No matter the HP, it seems like the Healing potential of Fury seems... off the charts. If you factor in the Bloodthirst base-healing, the extra buff to that from the trait and ER with 50% HP on a 1 min CD. It DOES take away from the whole "Mana sponge" problem, at least to a certain degree. And personally even less, as my Raid Lead already confirmed that my lucky streak will keep going. Unless Arms is miles above Fury, I'm allowed to keep progressing as Fury. So I can't really put too much thought into it, as it's quite likely not going to be a problem I have to face. Our Guild's always been doing decent in Heroic and Myth in WoD now, regardless of a few players lacking the extra min/maxing due to preference.

[Surtruk]

Depending on how Pillar augments work and how useful Odyn's Fury is, we have that 50% heal on a 45s CD without incurring its actual CD too. The healing potential is insane. I'm still worried for long ass stuns and CC in PvP, but I have a feeling that much healing will get nerfed at least a little.

[Archimtiros]

I feel like all pretense of Haste stacking is just dead.

It's dead but not because of Enrage, it's dead because of the huge amount we get out of talents.

When they said Fury was going to be Haste focused, I was pretty excited, though it meant that we would drop the Crit reliance and go for Haste/Mastery instead; unfortunately we get all the Haste we'll ever need from talents, so I can't see it being incredibly important past that. There may be a break-point or two, but that's about it.

- - - Updated - - -

About that HP Buff... I don't know. They either changed the name of the datamined spell then, or it is indeed another HP Buff on top of the one we already get. Only that one is permanent and the other kicks in upon Enraging. I honestly forgot about the 30% Damage taken those last few days. No matter the HP, it seems like the Healing potential of Fury seems... off the charts. If you factor in the Bloodthirst base-healing, the extra buff to that from the trait and ER with 50% HP on a 1 min CD. It DOES take away from the whole "Mana sponge" problem, at least to a certain degree. And personally even less, as my Raid Lead already confirmed that my lucky streak will keep going. Unless Arms is miles above Fury, I'm allowed to keep progressing as Fury. So I can't really put too much thought into it, as it's quite likely not going to be a problem I have to face. Our Guild's always been doing decent in Heroic and Myth in WoD now, regardless of a few players lacking the extra min/maxing due to preference.

Currently there is no datamined spell that increases our health other than the artifact trait, so I'm pretty confident that is all we get. However, it is datamined information, so it's completely possible they mean to remove the talent and roll the health in baseline elsewhere. I surely hope so, because giving up 3 upgrades to overcome a detriment we shouldn't have in the first place is stupid. At the same time, I can't see them being combined, because that would give us 60% increased health, which is... kind of obscene to be honest.

Bloodthirst healing will be good, but it's still healing over time. Healers rarely play the "slowly heal up" game, they'll see a low % and bomb it, most likely without even consciously recognizing that it's a Warrior with increased health; so we'll still be mana sponges.

[Deleted]

It's dead but not because of Enrage, it's dead because of the huge amount we get out of talents.

When they said Fury was going to be Haste focused, I was pretty excited, though it meant that we would drop the Crit reliance and go for Haste/Mastery instead; unfortunately we get all the Haste we'll ever need from talents, so I can't see it being incredibly important past that. There may be a break-point or two, but that's about it.

- - - Updated - - -



Currently there is no datamined spell that increases our health other than the artifact trait, so I'm pretty confident that is all we get. However, it is datamined information, so it's completely possible they mean to remove the talent and roll the health in baseline elsewhere. I surely hope so, because giving up 3 upgrades to overcome a detriment we shouldn't have in the first place is stupid. At the same time, I can't see them being combined, because that would give us 60% increased health, which is... kind of obscene to be honest.

Bloodthirst healing will be good, but it's still healing over time. Healers rarely play the "slowly heal up" game, they'll see a low % and bomb it, most likely without even consciously recognizing that it's a Warrior with increased health; so we'll still be mana sponges.

Doesnt matter how much hp and how well we will heal. Atm we are taking 43% more dmg than most classes , thats just too much. Im sure even arms will have the 13% DR

[Artunias]

Doesnt matter how much hp and how well we will heal. Atm we are taking 43% more dmg than most classes , thats just too much. Im sure even arms will have the 13% DR

I'm pretty concerned about this as well. Almost every single other class is getting a passive damage reduction.

[Murlocbait]

I'm pretty concerned about this as well. Almost every single other class is getting a passive damage reduction.

Don't worry guys, just wait for... um... another talent tree? I mean we have our core talents, pvp talents, and artifact talents. I'm sure there's a 4th tree somewhere that will fix everything... maybe an achievement talent tree? Maybe the auction house has a talent tree now? Moar talents!

[Deleted]

Don't worry guys, just wait for... um... another talent tree? I mean we have our core talents, pvp talents, and artifact talents. I'm sure there's a 4th tree somewhere that will fix everything... maybe an achievement talent tree? Maybe the auction house has a talent tree now? Moar talents!

Or warrior will get scrapped and removed from the game altogether

[bladeXcrasher]

Not holding my breath on this one. I am curious to see the beta forums once we get to start testing raid bosses with our awesome design.

[regularspecial]

I'm pretty concerned about this as well. Almost every single other class is getting a passive damage reduction.

Everyone gets a DR but we're the only ones who get a health increase.

As long as the numbers are tuned correctly, it doesn't matter.

Is it ideal? That's up for debate, but ignoring the advantages we get in favor of the DR is disingenuous.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, but for the sake of discussion, could you at least acknowledge both sides?

[Toppy]

Everyone gets a DR but we're the only ones who get a health increase.

As long as the numbers are tuned correctly, it doesn't matter.

Is it ideal? That's up for debate, but ignoring the advantages we get in favor of the DR is disingenuous.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, but for the sake of discussion, could you at least acknowledge both sides?

Both sides have been acknowledged before.

Passive damage reduction is vastly superior to an HP boost. There is no comparison. Tanks dont stack stamina for good reason.

[regularspecial]

Both sides have been acknowledged before.

Passive damage reduction is vastly superior to an HP boost. There is no comparison. Tanks dont stack stamina for good reason.

Did you just compare us to tanks?

Are you serious?

Tanks are also getting hit every few seconds by melee hits.

Everyone else in the raid is getting hit by an occasional raid wide aoe dmg/fire if they don't know how to move out of it. You aren't getting beat on and soaking mana. Your comparison stinks.

The math has been done earlier in the thread, and on the main warrior forums over at battlenet.

The is a negligble difference. If hit by an attack you'll be let with the same percentage of health as a rogue. If you'd been paying attention to other posts, you'd notice a point of contention is the fact that since there is effectively no difference, why take more damage in the first place?

Edit: And I'm not saying it's a good idea, but blizzard doesn't want to give us a DR. The only class fantasy they could think of is a berserker taking more damage. We'll either see a complete turn around (doubt it) or they'll stay course and buff our health/nerf the damage taken if it becomes a problem.

[Toppy]

Did you just compare us to tanks?

Are you serious?

Tanks are also getting hit every few seconds by melee hits.

Everyone else in the raid is getting hit by an occasional raid wide aoe dmg/fire if they don't know how to move out of it. You aren't getting beat on and soaking mana. Your comparison stinks.

The math has been done earlier in the thread, and on the main warrior forums over at battlenet.

The is a negligble difference. If hit by an attack you'll be let with the same percentage of health as a rogue. If you'd been paying attention to other posts, you'd notice a point of contention is the fact that since there is effectively no difference, why take more damage in the first place?

There is a difference because the healer has to heal more. More HP and less DR means more work for the healers.

More HP has been shown, not only in wow, but other MMO, to be very inferior to flat DR since when it comes down to it, what matters is how much needs to be healed, not what percentage needs to be healed.

It's not a difficult concept. If a fury warrior requires the healer to use another GCD to get their health up, then there is a serious issue and the fury is being a bigger burden compared to other dps.

And as far as your snarky little "Just get out of damage" reply goes, you're going to take damage, everyone will take damage. Fury is going to be taking more damage while having nothing to show for it.

[regularspecial]

HP normal 100 Ours 130
-30 -30
0 -9 (30% more dmg)
70 91
Total %HP after dmg
70% 70%

there you go.

It doesn't take in account the new DR but if we're taking obscenely more healing that 30% will be changed to 20%, or 15.

Also, any DPS who takes a DR artifact talent instead of the other damage dealing choices is an idiot. Unless an encounter see's people dropping like flies, there's no need for taking DR save for unlocking the talent behind it.

As for healing using a GCD, most healing is over healing. If heavy raid wide damage is going out (the majority of damage taken) you're probably stacked and have some form of healer CD on the raid.

If you drop in a situation like this, other people are dropping too.

[Toppy]

HP normal 100 Ours 130
-30 -30
0 -9 (30% more dmg)
70 91
Total %HP after dmg
70% 70%

there you go.

It doesn't take in account the new DR but if we're taking obscenely more healing that 30% will be changed to 20%, or 15.

Also, any DPS who takes a DR artifact talent instead of the other damage dealing choices is an idiot. Unless an encounter see's people dropping like flies, there's no need for stacking DR save for unlocking the talent behind it.

As for healing using a GCD, most healing is over healing. If heavy raid wide damage is going out (the majority of damage taken) you're probably stacked and have some form of healer CD on the raid.

If you drop in a situation like this, other people are dropping too.

The percentage doesnt matter since healers dont heal for percentages. Fury will need 30% more healing than other dps.

Also, they need to spent points in their artifact tree to get their extra HP in the first place. So there goes that argument too, fury warrior will need to spent points in their artifact line on the HP increase, otherwise they'll have the same percentage HP as everyone else, while also taking more damage.

[regularspecial]

The percentage doesnt matter since healers dont heal for percentages. Fury will need 30% more healing than other dps.

Also, they need to spent points in their artifact tree to get their extra HP in the first place. So there goes that argument too, fury warrior will need to spent points in their artifact line on the HP increase, otherwise they'll have the same percentage HP as everyone else, while also taking more damage.

That's assuming the health increase isn't baseline and the artifact talent not another bonus.

Most healing is over healing anyway. Now healing a warrior will mean your spells are more efficient, but no one is going to notice that, just as no one is going to notice the damage taken if they compensate us enough.

They've stated they will look at the number if it's an issue; nothing more needs to be said on the matter. If it's good or bad is another discussion, but we won't be in anymore danger of dying than anyone else.

[belron]

all i see is people talking about how the healers will have to heal more. this does not take the buff to our self healing into account. BT went from 1-5% and there is a glyph that would make it 10%. this makes the more HP we have the more healing we will do with BT making up for what the healers didnt heal with there first gcd.

[regularspecial]

For shits and giggles.

Rogue has 100 health, has invested one talent into 6% less damage taken.

He takes 30 damage, subtract 6% from that and i'll round up to 2. Rogue takes 28 damage and is at 72 health.

Warrior has 100 health, invests one talent into the increased health, and now has 110 health when enraged.

He takes 30 damage, increased by 30% because he's enraged and damage is buffed up to 39. Warrior is now at...71 health.

The warrior's bigger health-pool is his damage reduction. He'll need more healing to fill that bar up, but with our increased self healing (baked into our rotation ffs) and most healing going to be over healing anyway, I don't see this becoming an issue ever.

Edit: And since you'll be taking at least one rank of every talent, below 50% our BT is healing for 66% more, so every few GCDs, sometimes further apart since I'm sure we'll delay it at some point, you're getting back a sizeable chunk of health. Is it stupid? Yea, I'd much rather have a flat DR, but we won't see warriors dropping like men charging trenches.

Edit: And I didn't take into account the increased health from being TG, but assuming it's 6% (a number I recall being thrown around), the warrior is at 106 base health, I'll round his health up to when enraged 117, subtract 39 from that and he's at 78. That's pretty close to being at 70% health, same as the rogue.