Fury Legion Discussion

[Maltore]

I agree it doesn't help with clarity as due the reasons you've pointed out you definitely want to use it during enrage as much as possible. But once you get over that and just use it rotationally does it not accomplish the same thing, while being stronger? I'm going to make the assumption that if you take this talent you'll want to hit it on cooldown. (sans execute phase shenanigans)

Since we'll never reach 100% mastery (well, probably not) does this not let you hit it outside of enrage, and be stronger? While still allowing the talent to benefit from enrage when you are enraged. It might not be perfect, but I think it does more or less accomplish what you want.

It all boils down to what gives the best DPS and I guess we'll just have to wait for final tuning and sims to learn what's best.

I know you were saying that training dummy testing was showing it better to use IR RB on CD regardless of Enrage (was that before the FS buff?). But I just feel that on average it's best to make sure you have the highest Enrage up-time possible. And that means using FS exclusively when not Enraged (and BT on CD).

[Archimtiros]

I agree it doesn't help with clarity as due the reasons you've pointed out you definitely want to use it during enrage as much as possible. But once you get over that and just use it rotationally does it not accomplish the same thing, while being stronger? I'm going to make the assumption that if you take this talent you'll want to hit it on cooldown. (sans execute phase shenanigans)

Since we'll never reach 100% mastery (well, probably not) does this not let you hit it outside of enrage, and be stronger? While still allowing the talent to benefit from enrage when you are enraged. It might not be perfect, but I think it does more or less accomplish what you want.

Is it better than not having Inner Rage? Sure, but that doesn't fix the logical issues with the ability, refer to the bullets above. It still creates a disconnect between using it outside of Enrage and using it inside, where it would be infinitely more consistent to simply always act as if Enraged, which isn't exactly a new mechanic. There's also the issue of what happens when you have any other buttons to press, ie: Wrecking Ball, pushing Raging Blow outside of Enrage completely. It's just another coherency issue which Legion is failing spectacularly at, see the class hall.

[Artunias]

Is it better than not having Inner Rage? Sure, but that doesn't fix the logical issues with the ability, refer to the bullets above. It still creates a disconnect between using it outside of Enrage and using it inside, where it would be infinitely more consistent to simply always act as if Enraged, which isn't exactly a new mechanic. There's also the issue of what happens when you have any other buttons to press, ie: Wrecking Ball, pushing Raging Blow outside of Enrage completely. It's just another coherency issue which Legion is failing spectacularly at, see the class hall.

True enough

[Deleted]

So the extra health given to Fury to counter the extra damage taken during enrage seems to have been nerfed by quite a bit. If only they reduced the amount of extra damage taken as well. :/

[Deleted]

Can we ask Blizzard to change or remove Battle Scars after the recent nerfs in the last build happened?
That art. talent doesnt offer anything, just makes my hearth break into million pieces, seeing that, i have to use my hard earned AP on shitty traits to reach the next, more awesome talent.

[Deleted]

They should just remove the increased damage taken, it's always been a stupid mechanic. Battle Scars doesn't even work anymore, guess it might be disabled to fix the healing bug that made it possible to solo all the elite quests. Not that it would even make a difference if it worked.

[Lutra]

.. the healing bug that made it possible to solo all the elite quests.

I was noticing larger than anticipated healing when world-questing in beta, but couldn't figure out where it was coming from. Could you explain or point me to information on the healing bug?

[Deleted]

I was noticing larger than anticipated healing when world-questing in beta, but couldn't figure out where it was coming from. Could you explain or point me to information on the healing bug?

Instead of only increasing maximum health, Battle Scars also increased current health resulting in a heal every time it activated. Raging Blow with Inner Rage also triggered Battle Scars which led to 100% up time. So every Rampage, every Raging Blow and every BT crit would heal you for quite a bit. For example in mythic+7 neltharions lair my damage taken was about 40 million higher than my healing received.

[Artunias]

Pretty typical blizzard response when a bug is drastically increasing the power of something. They can't just fix the bug, have to nerf the ability as well.

[Deleted]

Pretty typical blizzard response when a bug is drastically increasing the power of something. They can't just fix the bug, have to nerf the ability as well.

Yeah, let's not test the ability while working as intended. Clearly the bug which makes it infinitely more powerful makes it clear that it needs a nerf. /s

[Murlocbait]

The main argument for it is that it doesn't do what the talent suggests; while the talent says it can be used outside of Enrage, there's precious little reason to ever do so.

The problem Fury faces right now is that it has too much to do during too short of an Enrage window. By decoupling Raging Blow entirely (read: always acts as if Enraged), it would actually address this issue, reducing the emphasis on that window by allowing the ability to be used at any time. This would allow it to be used on cooldown, making it rotational as you suggest, and smooth out the Enrage window by removing that factor.

Further, it removes the problem you've unknowingly highlighted:

• If you're simply using it on cooldown after Bloodthirst, regardless of whether or not you're Enraged, a significant portion of those uses are going to be unenraged, wasting some of it's damage potential.
• If you only use it after Rampage during Enrage, you're wasting the cooldown on it.

Neither scenario wins, and this is exactly the wrong place to be putting your players when creating a rotation. I've spoken at length about intuitiveness and fluidity of rotations, and this is a perfect example of failure in both those areas.

I wonder if it would solve the problem if they redesigned IR as:

Inner Rage: Raging Blow no longer requires Enrage and deals 100% increased damage, but deals 200% increased damage when used without Enrage and has a 6 second cooldown.

That would encourage players to use it outside of Enrage, since you get extra damage that way, and the longer cooldown would make it ideal for using just before and then after an Enrage window. Just spitballing really, but seems like it would solve both problems.

[Deleted]

I wonder if it would solve the problem if they redesigned IR as:

Inner Rage: Raging Blow no longer requires Enrage and deals 100% increased damage, but deals 200% increased damage when used without Enrage and has a 6 second cooldown.

That would encourage players to use it outside of Enrage, since you get extra damage that way, and the longer cooldown would make it ideal for using just before and then after an Enrage window. Just spitballing really, but seems like it would solve both problems.

That's pretty much the same thing as just letting it always benefit from Enrage, with longer CD. At 50% mastery, which is easily attainable through dungeon gear and the artifact, it's the exact same thing. IMO the longer CD would make it annoying to use since you would have to hold off on using it in favor of BT a lot of the time.

[Lutra]

Instead of only increasing maximum health, Battle Scars also increased current health resulting in a heal every time it activated. Raging Blow with Inner Rage also triggered Battle Scars which led to 100% up time. So every Rampage, every Raging Blow and every BT crit would heal you for quite a bit. For example in mythic+7 neltharions lair my damage taken was about 40 million higher than my healing received.

So similar to last stand or a battlemaster trinket? That seems like it would explain the extra healing I'm seeing.

Outside of Inner Rage Raging Blow triggering battle scars being a bug, are we sure battle scars isn't also supposed to be raising current HP in addition to max HP? I know they changed the wording on the artifact trait a few times, but I don't recall them addressing the intent one way or another.

[Deleted]

So similar to last stand or a battlemaster trinket? That seems like it would explain the extra healing I'm seeing.

Outside of Inner Rage Raging Blow triggering battle scars being a bug, are we sure battle scars isn't also supposed to be raising current HP in addition to max HP? I know they changed the wording on the artifact trait a few times, but I don't recall them addressing the intent one way or another.

It's hard to compare it to a battlemaster trinket since there's no way to use it again while it's already up. If the effect is not up, current hp should increase to stay at the same % of max hp. The way Battle Scars worked, your current HP would increase even if the effect was already up. Basically a 150k hp heal or so.

Then there's some other weird stuff going on, like there being a few stages of the hp increase. My hp would go up to about 2.58m after the first proc, but after 2 or 3 reapplications it would cap out at 2.65m. On the last boss in Black Rook Hold, you could reach 30m while everyone else was sub 10m through some multiplicative scaling.

[Lutra]

I'm interested to see if/how long the "extra" heal stays in the game. Thanks for the testing and explanations.

[Deleted]

I don't know if it's still in the game, since Battle Scars doesn't trigger from anything at the moment. Will probably be fixed when the trait is working again. I'll miss being able to solo elites that melees for 300-400k though.

[Lutra]

Yeah it was strange. I'm a decidedly poor pvper, but doing some pvp world quests I just wasn't dying 1 v 1-2 as long as I kept getting enrages. I knew something was up but wasn't able to put my finger on it. Until I tried other classes I just figured it was normal that you could stay at >80% HP most of the time.

[Murlocbait]

That's pretty much the same thing as just letting it always benefit from Enrage, with longer CD. At 50% mastery, which is easily attainable through dungeon gear and the artifact, it's the exact same thing. IMO the longer CD would make it annoying to use since you would have to hold off on using it in favor of BT a lot of the time.

So tune it up to 300% or whatever, so it deals significantly more damage when not Enraged. Yes/no?

[Khelon]

At this rate Im expecting enrage to only increase damage you take by 20% before launch as the amount of hp we have compared to other dpsers isnt going to offset 30% extra damage taken.

[Deleted]

So tune it up to 300% or whatever, so it deals significantly more damage when not Enraged. Yes/no?

I don't like the idea of having a core rotation ability that is less useful when our mastery is active. I suppose it would be cool with some kind of ability that is useful without enrage, but that's where we have our lord and savior Furious Slash, Whipper of Enemies. Wouldn't want something to replace that, would we?

On the topic of Inner Rage: I enjoy the gameplay as it is now, pre execute phase. The stable rotation of BT->RB->Rampage/Wrecking Ball is satisfying IMO, especially with lots of haste. Burst with Battle Cry is also a lot higher when you're using Inner Rage.