Legion - Subtlety discussion

[GT4]

so combo points arent a resource?

You were arguing that baseline, you were lacking resources. Deeper Stratagem doesn't provide any extra resources unlike Vigor, it merely allows you to convert your resources more efficiently into damage.... but that's what pretty much any talent that increases your damage would also do. In fact, if you're purely worried about wasting CPs, Anticipation would also be a better option in this row.

It's glaringly obvious you're just rationalizing your opinion that's purely based on feelings by making up patterns because actual data doesn't support your point very well. Sub isn't any more special when it comes to its reliance on certain talents than other specs - if you want a spec where that'd actually be a valid argument, refer to my feral example above.

(Oh, and just by the way, you listed "energy" as a reason for deeper stratagem, not "combo points".)

You didn't even bother checking whether the talents you listed as mandatory were actually used. Looking at top Guarm logs, for example, the vast majority isn't using weaponmaster but MoSubtlety and the #2 log is even using DfA on live (which is getting stronger in comparison next patch because of the MoShadows nerf).

[shaunika123]

You were arguing that baseline, you were lacking resources. Deeper Stratagem doesn't provide any extra resources unlike Vigor, it merely allows you to convert your resources more efficiently into damage.... but that's what pretty much any talent that increases your damage would also do. In fact, if you're purely worried about wasting CPs, Anticipation would also be a better option in this row.

It's glaringly obvious you're just rationalizing your opinion that's purely based on feelings by making up patterns because actual data doesn't support your point very well. Sub isn't any more special when it comes to its reliance on certain talents than other specs - if you want a spec where that'd actually be a valid argument, refer to my feral example above.

i wasnt even the one making the original point about the talents, at least be aware of who you're arguing with and about what.
and yes having an extra combo point is more resources however you look at it. in a world where you gain 2 cps every GCD and 1-2 often accidentaly one extra combo point means a whole lot, especially considering how it synergizes with relentless strikes.

and yes anticipation gives more CPS (which will most likely be the best choice with the setbonus), but deeper is a nice compromise of resource+dmg

[GT4]

taking vigor, while sort of eliminates the energy problem ,creates a combo point problem, it's not exactly a solution

even if on paper it's "viable", it will never be a good choice simply because we have so many accidental combo points we'd be wasting multiple eviscerates and thus shadow dance charges if we took it.

i mean MFD was the best choice for sub in HFC based on sims and yet noone was taking it either right?

It becomes more and more obvious that you have no idea what sims actually are. Sims take everything you're arguing about into account already.

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i wasnt even the one making the original point about the talents, at least be aware of who you're arguing with and about what.
and yes having an extra combo point is more resources however you look at it. in a world where you gain 2 cps every GCD and 1-2 often accidentaly one extra combo point means a whole lot, especially considering how it synergizes with relentless strikes.

and yes anticipation gives more CPS (which will most likely be the best choice with the setbonus), but deeper is a nice compromise of resource+dmg

If you continue his argument, I'll assume you support it as well. If you don't, you should've made one yourself.

Just your last sentence already shows how fabricated his pattern is given that you're (who would've thought!) not using all talents that grant the most resources but all talents that end up being mathematically superior to others. Obviously a lot of them end up affecting in your resources in some way or another because that's what the majority of Subtlety's talents do anyway.

Basically the argument comes down to you choosing the best talents because they're mathematically superior and Sub wouldn't be competitive if you chose sub-par talents for each talent row... but that's exactly how talents work for other specs as well so what's the point here?

I shouldn't have even bothered arguing against this sort of ignorance anyway. It's not like a player who completely disregards sims in favor of his personal feelings would ever change their opinion until forced to do.

[shaunika123]

It becomes more and more obvious that you have no idea what sims actually are. Sims take everything you're arguing about into account already.

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If you continue his argument, I'll assume you support it as well. If you don't, you should've made one yourself.

Just your last sentence already shows how fabricated his pattern is given that you're (who would've thought!) not using all talents that grant the most resources but all talents that end up being mathematically superior to others. Obviously a lot of them end up affecting in your resources in some way or another because that's what the majority of Subtlety's talents do anyway.

Basically the argument comes down to you choosing the best talents because they're mathematically superior and Sub wouldn't be competitive if you chose sub-par talents for each talent row... but that's exactly how talents work for other specs as well so what's the point here?

I shouldn't have even bothered arguing against this sort of ignorance anyway. It's not like a player who completely disregards sims in favor of his personal feelings would ever change their opinion until forced to do.

the one and only argument i was supporting him in is that combo points are just as much of a resource as energy is, nothing else, i agree with you on the rest mostly, but then again ill go back to my example of MFD in HFC, it simmed higher than anticipation and NOONE was running it. i know exactly what sims are SIMULATIONS, not real data. you cant simulate something perfectly to actual raidboss conditions, the best you can do is give a ballpark

for example to this day simcraft cant reliably sim outlaw due to how much it fluctuates every single sim of it is way higher than it really is on average. just look at the front page outlaw is #1 on it out of the 3 rogue specs in single target. i'm not saying sims are worthless, in fact they're the most reliable source of what and how you should do things, but that doesnt mean they shouldnt be taken with a grain of salt

oh and btw, you're still coming out with the "mathematics" argument ,when all we're saying is that it's shit to play sub without those things, not that it does less damage

[elfporn]

You were arguing that baseline, you were lacking resources. Deeper Stratagem doesn't provide any extra resources unlike Vigor, it merely allows you to convert your resources more efficiently into damage.... but that's what pretty much any talent that increases your damage would also do. In fact, if you're purely worried about wasting CPs, Anticipation would also be a better option in this row.

It's glaringly obvious you're just rationalizing your opinion that's purely based on feelings by making up patterns because actual data doesn't support your point very well. Sub isn't any more special when it comes to its reliance on certain talents than other specs - if you want a spec where that'd actually be a valid argument, refer to my feral example above.

(Oh, and just by the way, you listed "energy" as a reason for deeper stratagem, not "combo points".)

You didn't even bother checking whether the talents you listed as mandatory were actually used. Looking at top Guarm logs, for example, the vast majority isn't using weaponmaster but MoSubtlety and the #2 log is even using DfA on live (which is getting stronger in comparison next patch because of the MoShadows nerf).

Deeper strategem's 6th combo point provides extra resources, in particular energy because of relentless strikes.

Each 6cp finisher has a 20% chance with deeper strategem to proc relentless strikes a second time. That's Yuge.

Vigor is bad because of the limitation of 5cp more than the buff. It provides 50 extra energy to pool with, and 10% energy gen, which is equivalent roughly to 1 EPS or 10% haste, scaling up for me to 1.1 eps, as i have 10% haste. The 5 cp limitation still kills it, we waste so much CP with 6(on live) that anticipation(buffed) will become better, even though we lose damage and energy gen by switching.

1-2.5% differences in talents are great. But that can be the difference between 90 percentile and 70th percentile.

The issue is gameplay and rotation fixes in talents. Subterfuge, premed, and MoS are the rotation fixes.

The argument is that MoS, premed, and subterfuge should be baked in, and more interesting choices offered. The reasons for that desire have been expressed.
The other two talents are less impactful choices, but they do support the lack of resources in the rotation better than the other options.

And thanks for illuminating the issues some other classes have with their talents, like feral - i was honest when i asked that question because i did not know. I imagine their excuse there is that they want utility options.

[GT4]

the one and only argument i was supporting him in is that combo points are just as much of a resource as energy is, nothing else, i agree with you on the rest mostly, but then again ill go back to my example of MFD in HFC, it simmed higher than anticipation and NOONE was running it. i know exactly what sims are SIMULATIONS, not real data. you cant simulate something perfectly to actual raidboss conditions, the best you can do is give a ballpark

for example to this day simcraft cant reliably sim outlaw due to how much it fluctuates every single sim of it is way higher than it really is on average. just look at the front page outlaw is #1 on it out of the 3 rogue specs in single target.

oh and btw, you're still coming out with the "mathematics" argument ,when all we're saying is that it's shit to play sub without those things, not that it does less damage

If you know how to check, apply and interpret simulations properly, you can simulate for basically every possible fight. That the majority of players believes that patchwerk simulations are the only thing out there is a completely different issue.

When it comes to your HFC example, I didn't play back then so I can neither tell you whether your observations are correct, nor why.

When it comes to your last point, the person I initially replied to was clearly talking about numbers as well. Outside of numbers, the quote "Also, I said the spec would not work in a competitive environment without those talents, and i stand by that." makes no sense because a "competitive environment" doesn't care about play style but about results.

[elfporn]

Oh i forgot to mention.

Anyone with the boots(bandaid) can choose to swap out of MoS with little loss. Without checking, i'm pretty certain the top logs on guarm all have the boots. With the boots adding energy to the rotation (and more dances) MoSub would have more uptime, and MoS less essential by far. So it's quite easy to envision using different talents when using such a strong legendary - you would want to switch just to try and avoid energy capping for the entire fight. (i bet they dont use too many energetic stabbing relics either)

if the above seems like i'm going back on my statements...i'm not, i don't have the boots, and everything i have argued is true for me (and anyone without the boots). With the boots you're energy capping for most of a fight, and those resource talents become less essential.

[GT4]

Deeper strategem's 6th combo point provides extra resources, in particular energy because of relentless strikes.

Each 6cp finisher has a 20% chance with deeper strategem to proc relentless strikes a second time. That's Yuge.

Vigor is bad because of the limitation of 5cp more than the buff. It provides 50 extra energy to pool with, and 10% energy gen, which is equivalent roughly to 1 EPS or 10% haste, scaling up for me to 1.1 eps, as i have 10% haste. The 5 cp limitation still kills it, we waste so much CP with 6(on live) that anticipation(buffed) will become better, even though we lose damage and energy gen by switching.

1-2.5% differences in talents are great. But that can be the difference between 90 percentile and 70th percentile.

The issue is gameplay and rotation fixes in talents. Subterfuge, premed, and MoS are the rotation fixes.

The argument is that MoS, premed, and subterfuge should be baked in, and more interesting choices offered. The reasons for that desire have been expressed.
The other two talents are less impactful choices, but they do support the lack of resources in the rotation better than the other options.

And thanks for illuminating the issues some other classes have with their talents, like feral - i was honest when i asked that question because i did not know. I imagine their excuse there is that they want utility options.

You're exaggerating a lot here. Looking at e.g. Guarm, 70th percentile is 520k DPS and 90th percentile is 575k for Sub. That's a difference of >10%. As mentioned previously, there's even a rogue at #2 for Guarm using DfA instead of MoS.

The only talent that doesn't make much sense as a talent would be Subterfuge not only because it significantly outperforms the other options but also because shadow dance as a main ability of Sub without it is too short to properly utilize some of the stealth mechanics.

[Deleted]

Panzatard you should be probably in the 72% of sin players who refuse that sub could be a better spé for NH because you dont have legs / AP for switch. IF not you are a guy who spend his time in myhic+2-4 and who dont care about sub dps/viability in raid. Stop trash talk and stay away from this part of the forum.

edit :I checked your wowprogress and warcraftlogs and im close to 2) frustrated sub without boots who do mythic+2-4

Amount of Mythic 2+ Dungeons completed in time: 25
Amount of Mythic 5+ Dungeons completed in time: 12
Amount of Mythic 10+ Dungeons completed in time: 0

4/7 NM MM
0/3 TOV

Warcraftlogs : Best Perf. Avg 60 just lol

Your credibility is near 0

This is a sub thread not a thread for frustrated people or clowns who have not a single idea how to play sub and his viability.

Is Wow now a Game where only People with 5000mythic+ and 10/10mythic are allowed to talk about it ?

[elfporn]

You're exaggerating a lot here. Looking at e.g. Guarm, 70th percentile is 520k DPS and 90th percentile is 575k for Sub. That's a difference of >10%. As mentioned previously, there's even a rogue at #2 for Guarm using DfA instead of MoS.

The only talent that doesn't make much sense as a talent would be Subterfuge not only because it significantly outperforms the other options but also because shadow dance as a main ability of Sub without it is too short to properly utilize some of the stealth mechanics.

Thanks for checking those - i'm not able to check warcraftlogs atm. I was just using hyperbole to try and illustrate the point that 1-2% is a bigger deal than it sounds.

You're right that subterfuge is the worst of the bunch - it creates the resource problem, and focuses it into that 5 second window, and all the other talents mentioned help fill that resource gap.

[Deleted]

Is Wow now a Game where only People with 5000mythic+ and 10/10mythic are allowed to talk about it ?

Its not about talking or arguing but trashtalking.

Can we please stop fighting? "They nerfed my 4pc", boo hoo we can't do any thing about it and blizzard won't buff it back to 100% again(expect a MAXIMUM of 50% during the first week of nighthold) creating a bunch of pages about a nerf In one of the best legendaries in the game, some people have questions about the spec and its hard to notice them with all this text.
If you want more energy there's vigor to cover that even though ds is better they will need it in the patch so it will make it easier changing. After considering all options if you still don't like the spec go ahead and play mut since it is so good.

Do you see something positive ?

[shaunika123]

if you still don't like the spec go ahead and play mut since it is so good.

yeah and who will give me legendaries and AP for that?

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If you know how to check, apply and interpret simulations properly, you can simulate for basically every possible fight. That the majority of players believes that patchwerk simulations are the only thing out there is a completely different issue.

When it comes to your HFC example, I didn't play back then so I can neither tell you whether your observations are correct, nor why.

When it comes to your last point, the person I initially replied to was clearly talking about numbers as well. Outside of numbers, the quote "Also, I said the spec would not work in a competitive environment without those talents, and i stand by that." makes no sense because a "competitive environment" doesn't care about play style but about results.

my mistake then, my arguments are mainly that it sucks to play the spec withotu those stuff (AND it does less damage, just not astronomically less)

[panzaghor]

Its not about talking or arguing but trashtalking.



Do you see something positive ?

We had an entire page of them arguing about the boot without taking any talents into consideration, the nerf already happened and there is nothing we can do about it and not they are doing the right thing focusing on the talents that we are going to use next patch and how the affect our dps and gameplay

[Deleted]

Sorry GT4 but either you dont want or cant understand what is this discussion about. Damage wise the spec is in a good position(nobody doubts it), but we cant say the same about gameplay.

Your so called simulation numbers are easily debunkable. You talk about things that you dont understand. Simulations are one thing but in-game some of the talent-spell interactions are bugged.

A few examples:
- Finality/Weaponmaster interaction
- Akaris soul is not benefiting from the self buff effects, so the damage stated in the tooltip is unreachable
- Insignia of Ravenholdt related bugs (shuriken storm, goremaws bite)

All of the aforementioned bugs are affecting the sub dps in a negative way.

Regarding your talent bias. A talent row is balanced when the talent choices across the spec population are diveded. When 99% of the player base is using the same talent setup the talent tree is not balanced. Lets not include the the T15 row here because before the Goremaws bite fix probably WM was the prefered choice.

If im not mistaken one of the first versions of the 7.1.5 simcraft came out around christmas. According to this simcraft the prefered trinket choice for sub next to the CD reducrtion one is Arcanogolem Digit which has cca. 2% damage contribution. But in the real time this is not tru, the damage contribution is idd around 2% but Nightblooming Frond is a much better choice with 5-7% damage contribution. So according to your statement we should blindly trust simcraft and pick the suboptimal choice. Simcraft is a complimentary tool and we should realy appriciate the time and efford of the contributors (especially Aethys) from the rogues, but its not a real metric.

[Scharnhorst]

Sorry GT4 but either you dont want or cant understand what is this discussion about. Damage wise the spec is in a good position(nobody doubts it), but we cant say the same about gameplay.

Your so called simulation numbers are easily debunkable. You talk about things that you dont understand. Simulations are one thing but in-game some of the talent-spell interactions are bugged.

A few examples:
- Finality/Weaponmaster interaction
- Akaris soul is not benefiting from the self buff effects, so the damage stated in the tooltip is unreachable
- Insignia of Ravenholdt related bugs (shuriken storm, goremaws bite)

All of the aforementioned bugs are affecting the sub dps in a negative way.

Regarding your talent bias. A talent row is balanced when the talent choices across the spec population are diveded. When 99% of the player base is using the same talent setup the talent tree is not balanced. Lets not include the the T15 row here because before the Goremaws bite fix probably WM was the prefered choice.

If im not mistaken one of the first versions of the 7.1.5 simcraft came out around christmas. According to this simcraft the prefered trinket choice for sub next to the CD reducrtion one is Arcanogolem Digit which has cca. 2% damage contribution. But in the real time this is not tru, the damage contribution is idd around 2% but Nightblooming Frond is a much better choice with 5-7% damage contribution. So according to your statement we should blindly trust simcraft and pick the suboptimal choice. Simcraft is a complimentary tool and we should realy appriciate the time and efford of the contributors (especially Aethys) from the rogues, but its not a real metric.

The 3 bugs you listed do not "affect" gameplay, only damage (i.e. how does akaari's sould being a broken pet affect what buttons you push?).

As for the "perfect" talent situation: Yes it would be great if every talent combination gave us a completely different yet viable play-style in all encounters; however, this is an almost impossible goal to reach with the development time constraints on the Blizz team. In this perfect scenario every spec would have 5000+ sub specs. Blizz doesn't even have enough time to make 24 specs balanced in every situation. They could make talents a choice of what aspect of the game you want to be good at (ST, Cleave, burst AOE, etc.), but Blizz has put restrictions on changing talents (at least compared to WoD) so that doesn't seem to be the route they are going.

Also, GT4 specifically said "check, apply and interpret simulations properly". Nothing in that statement suggests to blindly follow a front page image of spec disparity for a PTR patch yet to hit live. APL's can be optimized, talents can be optimized, it only shows one fight type (you can make a simulation of almost any fight encounter), and the ability interactions may even have bugs. The contributors of Simulationcraft do not have access to the WOW server, and as such must rely on what is available to the general player base and extensive testing. Simulations should be looked at the same as any model: with an understanding of the assumptions made when the model was created.

As for the state of Sub, the spec will be "viable" as most NH fights follow the ST +adds formula that Sub works so well with. I still think the nerfs were a little harsh but it will probably be within the player skill variance. Gameplay wise, Sub currently has the potential to be a pretty fun spec (as evident by boot playstyle), but the devs chose to not focus on the gameplay deficit and only tried to resolve the legendary deficit between boots and non-boot sub players (and later the 4pc imbalance). QoL improvements like ss tele control and less rng resource generation (maybe swap boot type effect with energetic stabbing type effect, with some number tweaking) would solve a lot of the complaints I have heard about the spec.

Talent wise, subterfuge sounded like it met what the devs would call a mandatory talent for sub. The other so-called mandatory talents do not really fall into this category. DS/Ant/Vig all have there place. DS is so strong right now because it interacts with out Mastery so well and we can limit our CP waste with a 6 store. Ant currently blows, but with bracer, trink and 4pc coming in NH will have a place, and Vigor helps quite a bit with the energy issues at lower gear levels. PM/Ala/ES already gives you a choice on AOE situations (which are sparse in EN/ToV), with ES being the only downer in that tier. MoS/MfD/DfA is very similar to the previous tier (MfD is great for consistent add cleave, and DfA is very strong in cleave situations). MoS only "feels" great because it allows you to pool less, as damage wise it is not that far ahead.

[Deleted]

The 3 bugs you listed do not "affect" gameplay, only damage (i.e. how does akaari's sould being a broken pet affect what buttons you push?).

Nobody said it affects gameplay. I said it in comparision with the simulated dps results what GT4 stated.

Sry but gear level has 0 impact on your energy regen so no Vigor has no place. Energy regen is coming from various mechanics and nobody wants haste on their gear. I highly doubt (at the current state of ptr) that anybody going to pick Alacrity since 4pc bonus got changed. Furthermore DfA has nothing to do with cleaving, you lose 100s of energy if you pick that talent. In heavy AoE situations you dont need MfD either because you cant run out of CP and MoS is more usefull between the add packs.

[GT4]

Sorry GT4 but either you dont want or cant understand what is this discussion about. Damage wise the spec is in a good position(nobody doubts it), but we cant say the same about gameplay.

Your so called simulation numbers are easily debunkable. You talk about things that you dont understand. Simulations are one thing but in-game some of the talent-spell interactions are bugged.

A few examples:
- Finality/Weaponmaster interaction
- Akaris soul is not benefiting from the self buff effects, so the damage stated in the tooltip is unreachable
- Insignia of Ravenholdt related bugs (shuriken storm, goremaws bite)

All of the aforementioned bugs are affecting the sub dps in a negative way.

First off, not all of those are necessarily bugs. E.g. insignia is very likely not intended to work with AoE generators which would make it an incomplete tooltip at worst. Secondly, simulations use a model that attempts to model the real world (aka including any bugs present), not an ideal world without bugs. Simulations will never be flawless or void of bugs but it's relatively easy to find meaningful simulation errors by cross-checking between simulation reports and results and as such, the current amount of errors in the simulation will be minimal and more likely not to have an effect on the results than to have one.

Lastly, you don't seem to understand what "debunking" something means. You're supposed to show actual evidence (if not proof) against a claim instead of just claiming the opposite based on ignorance.

Regarding your talent bias. A talent row is balanced when the talent choices across the spec population are diveded. When 99% of the player base is using the same talent setup the talent tree is not balanced. Lets not include the the T15 row here because before the Goremaws bite fix probably WM was the prefered choice.

The player base will always converge towards a specific talent setup. Given enough time, you will rarely if ever see any deviations from the "standard" for the vast majority of talents unless they don't directly improve your performance or only do so marginally (e.g. utility talents). Leaving that aside, this discussion is about 7.1.5 which has buffed the less popular talents and/or nerfed the more popular ones. Are you fortune telling or where did you get information on players' talent choices in 7.1.5 from?

If im not mistaken one of the first versions of the 7.1.5 simcraft came out around christmas. According to this simcraft the prefered trinket choice for sub next to the CD reducrtion one is Arcanogolem Digit which has cca. 2% damage contribution. But in the real time this is not tru, the damage contribution is idd around 2% but Nightblooming Frond is a much better choice with 5-7% damage contribution. So according to your statement we should blindly trust simcraft and pick the suboptimal choice. Simcraft is a complimentary tool and we should realy appriciate the time and efford of the contributors (especially Aethys) from the rogues, but its not a real metric.

You're completely straw-manning here. I've explained not once but multiple times that simulationcraft is a tool that you need to know how to use properly. "Blindly trusting" simcraft is literally the opposite of that. Anybody with half a brain would've told you that trinkets weren't properly assessed in that version because some nighthold trinkets (including the nightblooming frond you just mentioned) weren't implemented until a few days ago (the commit was two or three days ago). Talent choices can be safely assessed as being implemented (and most likely without bugs) because all of their mechanics have been in the game for months at least and the only changes are numerical changes which are stored in a database and subsequently not directly connected to the implementation. Checking whether something is actually implemented at all, by the way, is absolutely trivial and not doing so is a mistake on your side, not on the side of the tool.

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Nobody said it affects gameplay. I said it in comparision with the simulated dps results what GT4 stated.

Sry but gear level has 0 impact on your energy regen so no Vigor has no place. Energy regen is coming from various mechanics and nobody wants haste on their gear. I highly doubt (at the current state of ptr) that anybody going to pick Alacrity since 4pc bonus got changed. Furthermore DfA has nothing to do with cleaving, you lose 100s of energy if you pick that talent. In heavy AoE situations you dont need MfD either because you cant run out of CP and MoS is more usefull between the add packs.

There's literally a Sub rogue at #2 for Guarm with DfA on live - that's a pure single target fight. That means he's competing with other Sub rogues who are still benefiting from the 30 energy MoS that's being nerfed next patch. If it was such a huge DPS loss, he would've never been able to reach that position.

If you want to stick with your talents at all costs, that's your choice. At the same time, however, that's a choice that's not based on actual data but on your gut feelings so it has no place in a discussion about facts.

Lastly I find it kind of ironic that you start with this part:

Sorry GT4 but either you dont want or cant understand what is this discussion about. Damage wise the spec is in a good position(nobody doubts it), but we cant say the same about gameplay.

Why? Because afterwards you spend your entire time talking about actual numbers of which you clearly have no clue anyway.

[elfporn]

I'd like to point out that with the boots, MoS becomes optional(MfD/DFA may pull ahead) and MoSub starts to beat out wm due to uptime.

Not using MoS when you don't have the boots is a big loss, with the boots you're capping or energy neutral(with MoS talented)

I can definitely see someone with boots choosing to use DFA over MoS to try and avoid energy capping.

[elcapone]

the tour is over for me boyos

[Rixan]

I don't see the Deeper Strategem Nerf under Subtlety on the official Patch Notes - am i blind?

I see it for assassination and outlaw, but not sub