No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[WowIsDead64]

It would be easy to say that cross-realm hopping is of MUCH more detriment to this game than flying ever could be. Remove cross realm hopping not flying.

Yeah, realm-hopping - the the second way of avoiding forced competition after flying. I don't realm-hop for example - I simply fly from Docks to Front and kill all rares on my way. But realm-hopping - is more explicit and obvious symptom, that shows, that players aren't happy with current design of outdoor content. And Blizzard seem to simply ignore it, despite of fact, that it disturbs legitimate LFG users to a point, where it's impossible to properly use LFG. Why so? LFG was intended to replace oQueue, that was essentially crutch in LFG system. And now LFG is crutch too? And players are suggested to use some crutches to avoid realm-hoppers? Usually, when Blizzard ignore some problem - they work around some solution. But they usually do it way too slowly and refuse to admit their failures till the very last moment. For example: Legion isn't even released yet and still being called "best xpack ever made" for marketing purposes, but...it's already doomed to be failure, cuz it's major problems are already known and they aren't being fixed - i.e. it's "problems will be fixed in next xpack", as always. Why so? Why can't we solve them now? Why can't we at least implement per zone Pathfinder? Why can't Blizzard simply add deserter debuff to LFG? Because they admit, that with current game design players NEED realm-hopping?

[rda]

As most people have posted, if a change is made that is game breaking, you have every right to quit. People understand you are upset about flight, that's never been the issue.
As far as the camera, the comparison is a little different. You are taking something that is a convenience and trivializes world content as well as, in a way, takes you out of the game. This is a little different than the camera change that has a direct relation to how the encounters work and can be very detrimental to the playing of the game itself. If you are looking for reasons as to why this is, there's a whole thread dedicated to it, not going to retype it.
As it stands, I hate the camera change, but is it enough to get me to stop playing? Probably not. So far it hasn't affected my game play that much and will wait to see how it goes in Legion during raid encounters (I did not test them on beta). If it's a problem for me, I won't play for much longer, as that is my choice.

I will illustrate the difference between you and me.

I like flying, you are ambivalent / don't like it. Blizzard remove it. I complain, you tell me to shut up and say it's fine and great for the game.

You like big camera distance, I am ambivalent to it (and understand the technical reasons they are restricting it, although that's a complex topic with tons of trade-offs). Blizzard remove it. People like you complain, and I *DON'T* tell them to shut up and *DON'T* say it's fine and great for the game.

That's it.

[Eapoe]

I will illustrate the difference between you and me.

I like flying, you are ambivalent / don't like it. Blizzard remove it. I complain, you tell me to shut up and say it's fine and great for the game.

You like big camera distance, I am ambivalent to it (and understand the technical reasons they are restricting it, although that's a complex topic with tons of trade-offs). Blizzard remove it. People like you complain, and I *DON'T* tell them to shut up and *DON'T* say it's fine and great for the game.

That's it.

No, you just laugh in their faces about it. That's besides the point. You said yourself, "complex topic with tons of trade offs," whereas flight is not complex in the sense that it trivializes everything and is nothing more than a convenience, opinions on the matter of "I like flying because..."
I personally have never told you to shut up, as I've stated many times that I understand it's an issue for you. I have also said what flight is (like in the last 2 sentences I typed) and mainly respond to posts that are nothing more than opinion or yours where you are taking enjoyment out of other people being upset, and just being spiteful. I respond to things I see as innaccuracies.

[Maudib]

I will illustrate the difference between you and me.

I like flying, you are ambivalent / don't like it. Blizzard remove it. I complain, you tell me to shut up and say it's fine and great for the game.

You like big camera distance, I am ambivalent to it (and understand the technical reasons they are restricting it, although that's a complex topic with tons of trade-offs). Blizzard remove it. People like you complain, and I *DON'T* tell them to shut up and *DON'T* say it's fine and great for the game.

That's it.

I have that guy blocked... but I figured he was upset about camera zoom. He glosses over the zoom out's obvious trivialization of raid and dungeon content. Blizz has said many times that encounter content has not gotten easier, people have become better skilled. One way to combat that is to reduce the view, requiring more skill to be aware of your surroundings, and goings on. A wider view only makes it easier... and is a convenience.

It's relativity to this thread is that he is now having something he greatly prefers removed from game (or highly nerfed)... and because of his own arguments to flying... has to swallow a huge load of Blizz bullshit.

It's their game and they can do whatever the hell they want. But if he'd stop to realize that supporting Blizzard in taking things from his fellow players, he's giving Blizzard the power to take his own beloved features.

Whatever... at least enough of us unsubbed to FORCE Blizz to add it back in some fashion. He's just shit out of luck with camera view.

[Shakou]

I disagree that FPs are effective enough to travel between world quests and I disagree that gathering is a game for bots (I like gathering - yes, for real).

Anyway, I am not looking for a fight. Just wanted to say that I have a different opinion, I am arriving at the same conclusion as you - flying is good and should stay - but via a different road - it's not that flying isn't making travel faster, it does, that's part of why it's good (there are other parts), and it should stay because it's good and it being effective is not a reason to remove it. In my opinion.

I think some people get overly dramatic about this, like any topic in this game, but it's this simple: As a general rule of thumb never intentionally decrease rewards and power you have given to players with very few exceptions and they are:

1) When content is no longer bleeding edge and players have out leveled it (our gear it) the content is now trivial and it could create some imbalance if rewards from that content aren't not reworked, but since you can *gasp* simply increase the rewards for the next max level content this is not really necessary.

2) When you buff or rework a class and they are either doing obscene amounts of dmg, healing or mitigation either because of bugs or major imbalance. The answer isn't always a direct nerf so much as buffing other classes the developer might not like.

3) Any type of excessive ways to obtain in-game currency through legitimate means with little effort. Such as when you implement a poor received system to the game such as garrisons and some players turn their accounts into self sustaining gold farms, regardless of this option being available to all players these sort of things just destroy in-game economies and gives player who were already rich an obscene advantage over other players, and it can also completely trivialize content.

One thing you never ever ever do (unless your goal is to churn out cookie cutter bs content as fast as possible) is arbitrarily remove a feature players used regularly and enjoyed for 8 years of playing that game. It is the height of absurdity to claim such a feature trivializes content when it has been a regular normal feature of your game for 8 years. It's pretty obvious to anyone who has put any thought into this beyond whatever Blizzard's PR told them that if there is any problem with flying, it is that the content it's used in is not only incredibly trivial but completely insubstantial when you consider how long the average player is working on that content.

If I didn't know any better I'd think a few people here were on the company payroll.

[Dormie]

Don't play an open world game and demand a feature that skips the open world. There are already plenty of ways to get around easily enough.

[Elim Garak]

Last time I checked open world was required for flying.

[Mafic]

I have to admit... I am laughing out loud at people who are just livid about the camera zoom change.

Some of these people are anti-flyers and took great pleasure in seeing us almost lose and have flight delayed like it is.

And now the shoe is on the other foot... when people take the side of Blizzard over fellow players, it's only a matter of time before they get something they are passionate about taken from them. How you like it? Enjoy your engaging boss knee encounters and motion sickness. You have worked so hard on anti-flight initiatives that you deserve it!

No one deserves the abuse Blizz is doling out to the player base. Honestly, removing QoL features to make the game seem like a pseudo vanilla WoW experience is failing and will continue to fail.

[Connll]

I forgot the reasoning behind the camera zoom nerf.

But it wasn´t related to flight, was it?

[stomination]

I forgot the reasoning behind the camera zoom nerf.

But it wasn´t related to flight, was it?

It had nothing to do with flight.

Blizzard basically said that most players didn't know how to type in the maxdistance macro or some wasn't aware of it. So blizzard decided to set what it believes is the correct amount. Also something about it being less fair for players with small monitors. Idk.

Either way it didn't seem to bother me.

[Belaide]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745744692

We strongly believe that there needs to be parity in this area between players who are using the default UI and those who have addons or knowledge of hidden console variables. One option was certainly to just allow the in-game slider to go all the way up to the CVar hardcap. But that scale is beyond the one around which the game was designed at its core. The development team builds the world, its art, its combat mechanics, and other interactions, around the base UI experience and scale. At the 3.4-CVar zoom level, your heroic Warcraft avatar takes up about as much screen-space as one of the dozens of marines you might control in a game of Starcraft.

[Dhrizzle]

No one deserves the abuse Blizz is doling out to the player base. Honestly, removing QoL features to make the game seem like a pseudo vanilla WoW experience is failing and will continue to fail.

I think anyone who considers changes to the game to be "abuse" need to take several steps back from the game.

[SirCowdog]

I think anyone who considers changes to the game to be "abuse" need to take several steps back from the game.

I agree that "abuse" is too strong a word for this particular context. But Blizzard is being just a little bit ridiculous with some of these nonsense changes, especially in the face of feedback from beta and PTR players.

Stupid little things, like the "You have honor talents available", or the camera issue, or arbitrarily removing info from the character panel for no reason.

I'm sure they have reasons that think are valid, but that probably only make sense inside the echo chamber of Blizzard HQ.

Keep in mind that these kinds of changes and blatant ignoring of feedback stack up. Throw in stuff like limiting flight or something else major, and it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some players.

[caervek]

No one deserves the abuse Blizz is doling out to the player base.

Technically the anti flyers do deserve this, because if they hadn't jumped to Blizzards defense over the flying debale then Blizz would never have had the balls to do all the QoL nerfs in Legion that they are.

- - - Updated - - -

Stupid little things, like the "You have honor talents available", or the camera issue, or arbitrarily removing info from the character panel for no reason.

Blizzard are targeting a new demographic with Legion, and they mostly don't know the mouse wheel can adjust the camera because they only use the keyboard.

[purebalance]

Technically the anti flyers do deserve this, because if they hadn't jumped to Blizzards defense over the flying debale then Blizz would never have had the balls to do all the QoL nerfs in Legion that they are.

- - - Updated - - -



Blizzard are targeting a new demographic with Legion, and they mostly don't know the mouse wheel can adjust the camera because they only use the keyboard.

Oh please. When they learned in 6.2 that they lost little to no money over flying contrary to what the pro fliers were claiming, they stuck with their guns.

[caervek]

Oh please. When they learned in 6.2 that they lost little to no money over flying contrary to what the pro fliers were claiming, they stuck with their guns.

Haha, yeah, you keep telling yourself that, I'm sure losing half the playerbase (many of who put flying as one of their reasons for leaving in the sub cancellation questionnaire) had absolutely nothing to do with them changing their mind and doing something they were against :P

[WowIsDead64]

I forgot the reasoning behind the camera zoom nerf.

But it wasn´t related to flight, was it?

Flying and camera zoom problems are similar, just because the reasons behind removing them are similar - they're OP, trivialize content, allow you to play content unintended way, some players don't want to use them, but they feel forced to do it due to advantage, this features provide, etc.

The whole situation shows the problem of double standards in Wow - exactly the same arguments can be twisted the way, that favours Blizzard, their "White Knights" (I guess, it's one of players' archetypes) or players, with particular interests, even if this exact the same arguments are used to make exactly the opposite changes (fantasy/immersion argument used to justify removal of flying and class identity argument is used against Tri-spec, while rejecting QOL/gameplay arguments, while Blizzard keep homogenizing and pruning classes - i.e. removing all their class identity/fantasy/immersion abilities exactly due to QOL/gameplay argument). Or, on the other hand, exactly the same players agree with some arguments, when they favour them, and disagree, when they don't (remove flying, cuz it's cheat, but we want camera distance back, cuz it's just QOL feature). How many times should I repeat, that Blizzard are extremely hypocritical and "double-standarded"?

And this BS keeps happening, just because you allow Blizzard to continue doing it. I've said it back in Cata, when it wasn't too late and playerbase still could affect Blizzards' decisions and direction of development via voting with their wallets, as it happened with overtuned 5ppls and raids, being taken away from casual players: you should have taken rigid position - "No content - no sub". You haven't listened. You were playing, no matter what, and were using "wait and see" argument, even when design was obviously bad. And how it ended as the result? Blizzard were able to invest all your money from sub fee into side projects, like Hearthstone, HotS, Overwatch. And now they simply don't care about Wow - they do, what they want, and don't listen to players any more.

As one guy in camera distance thread said, communication between Blizzard and playerbase is completely broken:
Players: Design is bad, here's why...
Blizzard: Nooooooo! It's our game!

P.S. I really didn't want to sound like radical in this post, but just can't say it other way. Players keep and keep jumping into hype train and calling a priori terrible xpacks "best xpack ever made", allowing Blizzard to produce more and more of such xpacks. Do you have head on your shoulders or not? Do you have self control to stop paying for game, when you don't agree with it's direction of development? I guess, most players don't. No, I'm not angry due to this. It's just a shame. Shame, that such a great game is being destroyed by players themselves.

[Mafic]

I think anyone who considers changes to the game to be "abuse" need to take several steps back from the game.

I think anyone that doesn't see how customers are being poorly treated at this point is borderline trolling.

So, yes I consider it abuse of customers trust when QoL things are removed from the game.

[Slippermoon118]

I love mmo loot... you kill a spider he drops you a pair of sneakers!

[rda]

As one guy in camera distance thread said, communication between Blizzard and playerbase is completely broken:
Players: Design is bad, here's why...
Blizzard: Nooooooo! It's our game!

You forgot the juiciest part which is when these changes go live, and we have this:

Players: We can't believe you decided to go through with this! It's unplayable.

(now, the juiciest part)

...

...

...

(wait for it)

...

(wait for it)

...

...

Blizzard: Please be constructive. We are happy to listen to the issues you have and to the reasons as to why the changes affect how you enjoy the game.

...resetting "the dialog". :-)