[Legion] Discipline Priest Discussion

[Melchey]

Well in 5m do you really need to take PtW? You can just apply attonement normally and heal like you would normally? You would just have to do a bit more presetup and if everyone is taking massive aoe damage, you'll need to rely on stuns or the rest of your group to fill the gaps. It's doable for sure, but it'll be harder than it needs to be.

It's more AoE dps, so it can be taken. Just a comment on frustrations, like I said it was fine.

If we have to hold Blizzard's sins of the past against them, then we must hold true that Rets will be gutted into uselessness before the expac releases. That's what I was laughing at. Chillax. What I do understand, whether you do or don't, is you mentioned quite a lot of things that still need numbers tuning...especially things that Blizzard seems intent on avoiding.

But I like stacking scenarios in my favor and creating OP situations in which I get a BoW, 2 Innervates, and a HoH. All that going to one healer (besides HoH) still doesn't explain why you think the other 3-4 healers are going to be able to spam expensive heals. Your scenario already requires 1 Holy Priest, 2 Balance/Resto Druids, and a Ret just to prop up one healer.

Except rets have been useless, one expansion? Compared to healers not needing mana literally every expac since LK?

What number tunings are you suggesting blizzard are trying to avoid?

Also, I suggested a scenario where you only get the innervate, but nice try. I know reading is difficult for those on mmo-champion, but ONE innervate alone can provide 20-30% of a healers mana bar. Adding in the BoW, boomkin innervate, and HoH just make it even worse. And, if chance needed, your one ret can provide BoW to 3 healers.

[Anastacy]

Except rets have been useless, one expansion? Compared to healers not needing mana literally every expac since LK?

I can't remember very many cutting-edge progression fights that included Rets, no.

What number tunings are you suggesting blizzard are trying to avoid?

DPS Druid NV is gone, DPS Shaman AG is gone, Shadow Priest VE is gutted...yet you expect Blizzard to allow Rets to do 100k HPS?

Also, I suggested a scenario where you only get the innervate, but nice try. I know reading is difficult for those on mmo-champion, but ONE innervate alone can provide 20-30% of a healers mana bar. Adding in the BoW, boomkin innervate, and HoH just make it even worse. And, if chance needed, your one ret can provide BoW to 3 healers.

So...nowhere in this post did you not once mention getting a "follow up" Innervate since "Rapture lasts 11 seconds", to which the Disc Priest (already having received one Innervate) would be able to "spam expensive spells for another 9 seconds at no mana cost"?

Nowhere?

K...gotcha. My bad. I just have a "reading problem".

[Melchey]

I can't remember very many cutting-edge progression fights that included Rets, no.

Heroic Anub'arak, basically all of ICC, Deathwing, just to name a few.

DPS Druid NV is gone, DPS Shaman AG is gone, Shadow Priest VE is gutted...yet you expect Blizzard to allow Rets to do 100k HPS?

Not expecting them, but that's currently how it is on alpha. Mostly just a point

So...nowhere in this post did you not once mention getting a "follow up" Innervate since "Rapture lasts 11 seconds", to which the Disc Priest (already having received one Innervate) would be able to "spam expensive spells for another 9 seconds at no mana cost"?

Nowhere?

K...gotcha. My bad. I just have a "reading problem".

Lmao, I didn't say "nowhere" but it's pretty clear you're having difficulties in reading. Let me highlight it for you.

Let's try it with disc. For example in a very powerful scenario, you can get Innervate and use Rapture, which gives you free PW:S. Spec shield discipline, and get like 7% of your mana back for absolutely NO cost. That can happen every 1.5 minutes depending on your druid count. If you have enough haste, you can realistically get 10% back. PW:S is also very strong, sitting at well over 650% spellpower given artifact talents. Get a boomkin innervate? That's 50% bonus healing.

which THEN i mention "you can follow it up for even more regen" x). Then I go BACK TO THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT for this:

. So let's math the earlier one at assuming very little haste but all shields absorbed: 7 shields cost 2.5% mana each, and return 1% with the talent. So you're looking at 24.5% of your mana right there from one 3 minute CD. It would of course get way better with more haste, but assuming all shields were absorbed. Of course, assuming no shields are absorbed, it's still well over a tenth of your mana bar saved, if not more if you choose to spam other spells. You could also do it with HoH, but it also works for your other healers.

So yeah, when I mentioned a very basic yet powerful way to abuse ONE INNERVATE ALONE which is universally strong for all healers, it's literally only one innervate. The point being that you have the ability to ADD ON/FOLLOW UP on an innervate with another one, which makes the mana save even better. Or you add HoH for the same benefit for all your healers. Reading is hard.

[Anastacy]

Heroic Anub'arak, basically all of ICC, Deathwing, just to name a few.

Keyword being few, yeah?

Not expecting them, but that's currently how it is on alpha. Mostly just a point

OK then.

Lmao, I didn't say "nowhere" but it's pretty clear you're having difficulties in reading. Let me highlight it for you.


which THEN i mention "you can follow it up for even more regen" x). Then I go BACK TO THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT for this:

So yeah, when I mentioned a very basic yet powerful way to abuse ONE INNERVATE ALONE which is universally strong for all healers, it's literally only one innervate. The point being that you have the ability to ADD ON/FOLLOW UP on an innervate with another one, which makes the mana save even better. Or you add HoH for the same benefit for all your healers. Reading is hard.

So basically you mentioned a scenario in which getting 2 Innervates (back to back, or "every 1.5 minutes depending on Druid count"), but you're too hellbent on trying to insult someone's reading comprehension on a message board that, despite being there in front of both of our faces, you're going to deny having said?

Great. One Innervate is much stronk. You still mentioned 2 scenarios of a Disc getting 2 Innervates. But yeah...I can't read.

Care to answer how stacking all this on one Healer allows all of them to spam Flash Heals without a care? Still haven't done that yet.

[Melchey]

So basically you mentioned a scenario in which getting 2 Innervates (back to back, or "every 1.5 minutes depending on Druid count"), but you're too hellbent on trying to insult someone's reading comprehension on a message board that, despite being there in front of both of our faces, you're going to deny having said?

Great. One Innervate is much stronk. You still mentioned 2 scenarios of a Disc getting 2 Innervates. But yeah...I can't read.

Care to answer how stacking all this on one Healer allows all of them to spam Flash Heals without a care? Still haven't done that yet.

I mean, if you can't understand that I created a base scenario and added on to it I'm not sure explaining why I did that is going to be helpful for you. I mean, it's not like I'm saying I never suggested the two innervate/hoh scenario (actually never denied it, my post prior to this even admits it but lolreading), but I initially gave a basic scenario of ONE innervate since that can be realistic scenario in any given raid. Then you can ADD onto that to create an even stronger effect, especially because rapture can last well into another innervate! Do you understand now?

As far as Flash heal spam, that's largely such a vague discussion and you know that. What isn't vague though is the amount of mana that's provided through these spells, like 30% of your mana bar every 3 minutes from Innervate/HoH, or 4% every minute from BoW. These spells alone can provide enough extra mana so that you can end up actually spamming your spells.

[Djriff]

As far as Flash heal spam, that's largely such a vague discussion and you know that. What isn't vague though is the amount of mana that's provided through these spells, like 30% of your mana bar every 3 minutes from Innervate/HoH, or 4% every minute from BoW. These spells alone can provide enough extra mana so that you can end up actually spamming your spells.

The likely hood of a disc priest getting all of these stacked on them is slim to none. Would be better on a paladin or a MW.

[Melchey]

The likely hood of a disc priest getting all of these stacked on them is slim to none. Would be better on a paladin or a MW.

It's very similar mana saves across all classes. Likely strongest for MWs anyway. Was more demonstrating the idea for disc.

[Djriff]

I understand that, however the argument is fruitless in a raid environment where you would have all of these you would give it to a flat out throughput healer,

[Melchey]

I understand that, however the argument is fruitless in a raid environment where you would have all of these you would give it to a flat out throughput healer,

Not when all healers have Heal vs Flash heal spells, which was largely the argument. It's also not unlikely that you *could* give it to your disc for rapture pw:s spam, but that remains to be seen.

[Anastacy]

I mean, if you can't understand that I created a base scenario and added on to it I'm not sure explaining why I did that is going to be helpful for you. I mean, it's not like I'm saying I never suggested the two innervate/hoh scenario (actually never denied it, my post prior to this even admits it but lolreading), but I initially gave a basic scenario of ONE innervate since that can be realistic scenario in any given raid. Then you can ADD onto that to create an even stronger effect, especially because rapture can last well into another innervate! Do you understand now?

Yes. I totally understand that you mentioned different 2 scenarios of a Disc getting 2 Innervates, denied you did while insulting my reading ability, and are keeping at it.

Kudos for persistence, I guess.

CBA with someone so dishonest anymore. Keep thinking other people are the problem.

[Melchey]

Yes. I totally understand that you mentioned different 2 scenarios of a Disc getting 2 Innervates, denied you did while insulting my reading ability, and are keeping at it.

Kudos for persistence, I guess.

CBA with someone so dishonest anymore. Keep thinking other people are the problem.

Never denied it, keep telling yourself that I did, clearly makes you feel good

Since you can't actually show any proof that I actually denied it, and you continually ignore my first sentence, I'm just going to continue assuming that you're just mentally challenged, it's okay, no one blames you for it.

Infracted - Minor Flaming

Lets keep it civil everyone. Post about the discussion, not each other. - DjRiff

[Jimjam38]

Anyway, for people complaining about having lesser buttons to hit, I fail to see how that is a problem.

In the end, it's the depth of said buttons that matter. Quality over quantity is a thing in game design.

The devs can give you 1000 spells that do something similar and one-dimensional - like heal target ally for x. Is this your idea of having more "complicated" rotations? All that means is that you are given false choices, because you are just going to pick the one that has the best balance of healing output and mana cost. Giving you another 99999999 buttons doing the same thing isn't going to change that fact.

Case in point: current disc

It's not that disc doesn't have other buttons to press - it's that disc doesn't have other buttons that are meaningful to press. You have Holy Nova, PoH(non-EAA), Saving Grace, Spirit Shell etc, so why aren't you using them? Because there isn't a point doing so.

So it's never about the number of spells you are given, but the quality of the spells you have to work with. You can have 99999999 spells to dps, you can have 99999999 spells to heal with, but if they all fill similar niches, if they perform similarly, you are inevitably just going to find yourself casting the same spell over and over for a particular purpose you want to achieve.

So what if they pruned Mind Blast and only left you with Smite? There was never any meaningful choice to make between the two, anyone in the right mind will just spam Mind Blast. So may as well they remove the false choice and simplify the rotation. There are still far more interesting and meaningful choices to make when dpsing, like the Penance modifiers, as well as whether you want to pick up PTW over SW:P. You have to choose when you want to apply Atonement, and when you want to dps to heal Atoned targets. Yes, the rotation is simple, but is the decision making behind choosing who to heal, and how to balance between healing and dpsing easy? I think not.

I never said they made the spec easy. My issue is that removing mindblast was their solution, rather than making both Smite and Mindblast meaningful. There could have been any number of ways to do that, such as Mind Blast having a chance to make smite deal double or triple damage, or for smite to make the target take extra penance damage, etc etc. You're a smart guys, surely you can see that just removing mindblast was a bad solution that has left a thematic and mechanical void where we only have 2, sometimes just 1 shadow spell able to proc our artifact bonus.

- - - Updated - - -

Innervate brings back reciprocity to the game. Which they are trying very very hard right now. The approach to just throw in a ton of abilities that promote interaction between players (New Blessings, Innervate, stuff...) is generally a good idea in my opinion, as long as they get rid of the false friends. Though reintroducing innervate might not be one of the best ideas and could be cut of the list, as long as it gets replaced by something else. But in general I'm eager to see they're giving it another shot, but that can easily backlash.

I agree, bring back interaction between players is great. I've really disliked the push away from there being any interaction between individual players abilities and the rest of the raid. Removal of things like Mana Tide Totem, HoH, Replenishment, Judgement debuffs, Curse of the Elements, original Ebon Plague etc, has really diminished the sense of working together as a team to cripple and defeat the boss. It's lost that sense of cohesion that you get when you watch MMO animes or play Dungeons and Dragons. I'm not condoning the way it resulted in "x class/spec is required because of xyz buff/debuff" but I'm glad we're seeing some inkling of its return.

[Anastacy]

Never denied it, keep telling yourself that I did, clearly makes you feel good

Since you can't actually show any proof that I actually denied it, and you continually ignore my first sentence, I'm just going to continue assuming that you're just mentally challenged, it's okay, no one blames you for it.

"Also, I suggested a scenario where you only get one Innervate, but nice try."

Emphasis mine. Jesus H Christ.

[Genzen Han]

They could possibly attach an 'exhausted' debuff to all the various 'exteral mana/throughput' buffs (similar to Heroism/Time Warp), such that you can only benefit from one, say, every five minutes. At least this would prevent 'stack and abuse' tactics to some degree.

[Djriff]

5 minutes seems a bit extreme, but I agree. Unless they severely overtune fights, you don't need to abuse them.

[PosPosPos]

I never said they made the spec easy. My issue is that removing mindblast was their solution, rather than making both Smite and Mindblast meaningful. There could have been any number of ways to do that, such as Mind Blast having a chance to make smite deal double or triple damage, or for smite to make the target take extra penance damage, etc etc. You're a smart guys, surely you can see that just removing mindblast was a bad solution that has left a thematic and mechanical void where we only have 2, sometimes just 1 shadow spell able to proc our artifact bonus.

That's just making Smite "numerically meaningful", i.e. a contrived way to force Smite into existence(like explain how Mind Blast would buff Smite damage when the former is a mental attack, but the other is "physical" or how Smite would buff Penance damage as an iconic non-debuffing spell). This is putting aside the fact that you are still going to pick the most numerically efficient vs effective spell to cast anyway

Not necessarily meaningful design.

Personally, my solution would be that Smite should not be just a Holy spell. Instead, it should be a variable Holy/Shadow spell that changes depending on the element of the last spell last cast(Holy spell -> Holy Smite, Shadow/Fire spell -> Shadowsmite). This way, you don't have to force an extra dps button into existence, but you can still force either "brightest lights" or "darkest shadows" to proc.

[Djriff]

@Pos that would be pretty cool actually, as long as mechanically they were the same. How would it work in a lockout though? Like if you get holy locked can you use it after you cast SW: P and vice versa?

[PosPosPos]

@Pos that would be pretty cool actually, as long as mechanically they were the same. How would it work in a lockout though? Like if you get holy locked can you use it after you cast SW: P and vice versa?

Yes. So you can still dps if you Shadowmend/PTW/SWP before Smite if you get holy lockout, and Penance/Plea/etc -> Smite for Shadow lockouts.

Certainly, it would fit my ideal of "less spells, but more meaningful complexity".

[Melchey]

"Also, I suggested a scenario where you only get one Innervate, but nice try."

Emphasis mine. Jesus H Christ.

Unfortunately, there's no denial there. Like I've said, I created a base scenario with one (read: 1) innervate, and even went back to it in my original discussion. You even mentioned that I strictly talk about how powerful one innervate was here:

Great. One Innervate is much stronk. You still mentioned 2 scenarios of a Disc getting 2 Innervates. But yeah...I can't read.

So congratulations, not only did you not successfully prove that I denied anything, because I didn't, you also proved that I did talk about how strong ONE innervate was, especially when you ADD ON to it. There's was never a question that I had mentioned a scenario of disc (or any healer, really)getting two innervates, because I mentioned it multiple times. On the other hand, it was you who was twisting some words and creating this argument in your warped little head pretending things were said when they clearly weren't at all.

[TenYearsOfDisc]

I don't hate people who dislike the spec per se.
I hate people who dislike the spec and just whines 24/7 to no end over frivolous non-reasons. Like you.
Stop being salty and either choose to justify your stance, or just step down gracefully.

I don't have to justify my stance, I explained why I don't like it, and listed multiple reasons I find it not enjoyable. There's nothing to STEP down on, this isn't a war, perhaps you should focus on the spec and not the people here posting in the forums.