[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[garonne]

It's an issue of functionality though. We've been over this kind of thing before. They could combine all our attacks into a single "big hit," but that wouldn't really be a very functional design. The same is true of picking Zeal and Virtue's Blade. There are just way too many gaps too often. I'd pick Consecration but that's just not really viable.

i know the gaps you're talking about and honestly i disagree because i think its ok. im not against a lower cd (9 sec would be perfect), but the trade off numerically for the bigger hits is the time between them. it could also be the fact that i was use to the older design when VB was 12 sec cd which was just horrible with ES.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It sucks that you can't take Zeal and Virtue's Blade together without significant downtime though. It was much better last patch where you did occasionally have an empty spot, but the current build you have them consistently.

I wanted to include a bit extra for people using the AMR simulation. Keep in mind just how insanely reliant we are on weapon damage as Ret compared to other specs and notice that the weapon being used in the default simulator is the ilevel 750 Artifact.

To put in perspective, my 110 guy that I leveled up has 2000 more topend than the pre-made beta character due to the difference of 50+ artifact ilevels. It makes a tremendous difference and makes AMR's simulation not worth nearly as much.

Like usual though, I can see zeal being valued by the time the third tier of Legion comes around. That's just my opinion, don't trust Blizzard to necessarily know what they're doing when it comes to fluid rotation for us.

[garonne]

Honestly, consecration is stupid as an AOE dps talent. It just isn't fun to use and doesn't do anything. I like it on prot, but I don't miss it on Ret. Really surprised of all the bullshit Ret's dealing with thats what people were up in arms about.

Also, why the hell is Final Verdict literally just a numbers buff? The old Final Verdict talent was superior in LITERALLY every single imaginable category. Slightly changed playstyle, buffed damage, and added utility. That's what a talent should look like, not the bullshit in our tree.

WOD FV > LEGION FV for cleaves however its not bullshit, its just boring.

for single target the flat damage is the same shit, just shifting the damage from buffed DS to TV.
for aoe it was a waste to weave in tv ds tv ds after a certain number of targets.

this boring talent buffs the single target, the cleave and the aoe when needed.

[Deleted]

Could you elaborate so I understand what's wrong about her posts(I'm confused).

Theres clearly more downtime on Legion Ret of course.

Besides the whole comparison he made is moot. In WoD, in a raid you got several buffs. Your solo Ret has some "nerfs" on him to make up for that. The Legion Ret doesn't. So, it is just more propaganda of people who really don't understand anything.

In a raid, there isn't any down time on live. Unless you can't play well that is. You hardly even need to use exorcism. It is very very rare to have a free GCD. If it happens alot, you didn't do things right. That is the problem with many people though. They still thought that they had to build up to 5HP on live constantly and messed up their whole rotation. On live you usually don't go over 4HP. Only if CS or judgement is up. But if its exo you screw that.

In Legion, it happens all the time. Possibly every 2 judgement cycles. Quite honestly i haven't counted, but it happens way way more often. It's not even a comparison and i can't help but be sad at the misinformation some people spread.

[Chaosinciter]

It sucks that you can't take Zeal and Virtue's Blade together without significant downtime though. It was much better last patch where you did occasionally have an empty spot, but the current build you have them consistently.

I wanted to include a bit extra for people using the AMR simulation. Keep in mind just how insanely reliant we are on weapon damage as Ret compared to other specs and notice that the weapon being used in the default simulator is the ilevel 750 Artifact.

To put in perspective, my 110 guy that I leveled up has 2000 more topend than the pre-made beta character due to the difference of 50+ artifact ilevels. It makes a tremendous difference and makes AMR's simulation not worth nearly as much.

You can increase the level of the artifact for the simulation results. It's the easiest thing to do.

Edit: So all you have to do is click the Artifact tab then click where it has the relic slots and BAM lists all the relics that go in those slots for easy customization.

[ruiizu]

Like usual though, I can see zeal being valued by the time the third tier of Legion comes around. That's just my opinion, don't trust Blizzard to necessarily know what they're doing when it comes to fluid rotation for us.

Haste doesn't fix rotational gaps, it just makes the shorter. Anyway I've already given up on taking Virtue's Blade, I'll take Blade of Wrath instead. I'd rather have my short CD ability hit harder than my long CD one (I'm not a big fan of Fires of Justice).

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You can increase the level of the artifact for the simulation results. It's the easiest thing to do.

Edit: So all you have to do is click the Artifact tab then click where it has the relic slots and BAM lists all the relics that go in those slots for easy customization.

Didn't work for me, but may be because I'm using a ton of script blockers.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Haste doesn't fix rotational gaps, it just makes the shorter. Anyway I've already given up on taking Virtue's Blade, I'll take Blade of Wrath instead. I'd rather have my short CD ability hit harder than my long CD one (I'm not a big fan of Fires of Justice).

Yeah, I know and people keep telling me this but I really get it. I just feel like in the previous build FoJ at least made it better. I mean the only reason i'm rallying behind Fires of Justice is because of the cooldown reduction. I'm with you though, I'll be taking BoW to because of a short CD.

[Chaosinciter]

Haste doesn't fix rotational gaps, it just makes the shorter. Anyway I've already given up on taking Virtue's Blade, I'll take Blade of Wrath instead. I'd rather have my short CD ability hit harder than my long CD one (I'm not a big fan of Fires of Justice).

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Didn't work for me, but may be because I'm using a ton of script blockers.

Yeah Script Blockers will prevent it from functioning fully i've already allowed it to work and haven't had any issues pop up cause of it. In other news i got beta access now, so far i can see some of the issues play out a bit better than the limited exposure i had previously (only PTR) and will compile a list for feedback. Though one things for sure, they need to fix the issue where if Judgment kills the primary target it fails to cleave to the secondary that is beyond annoying.

[ruiizu]

Yeah, I know and people keep telling me this but I really get it. I just feel like in the previous build FoJ at least made it better. I mean the only reason i'm rallying behind Fires of Justice is because of the cooldown reduction. I'm with you though, I'll be taking BoW to because of a short CD.

I also go with Zeal because our basic cleave is really bad. I played around and finally got AMR to work and came to one of two conclusions:

1. AMR is a bunch of bullpoopy
2. Balance is so damn far from done.

A few pages back we were arguing about Warriors vs. Paladins for some reason. I just ran simulations multiple times for each spec (now with average ilevel of 810 thanks to the addition of relics) and the results aren't any better. On the "Iskar" simulation, I'm showing a difference of almost 100k in some instances (with Ret on the lower end).

[Reghame]

Last I heard, FV was neck and neck with ES. Even if it's slightly lower, I'd still recommend starting with FV until you get the flow of things down.

Also, a lot of trinkets got pretty heavily nerfed, so I think Rumbling Pebble might be back in the running for its chunk of mastery and haste.

with the ashbringer that ultimately buffs your TV while ES gains no benefits. prepatch will have ES as being higher DPS on single target.

[Chaosinciter]

I also go with Zeal because our basic cleave is really bad. I played around and finally got AMR to work and came to one of two conclusions:

1. AMR is a bunch of bullpoopy
2. Balance is so damn far from done.

A few pages back we were arguing about Warriors vs. Paladins for some reason. I just ran simulations multiple times for each spec (now with average ilevel of 810 thanks to the addition of relics) and the results aren't any better. On the "Iskar" simulation, I'm showing a difference of almost 100k in some instances (with Ret on the lower end).

Don't forget that one thing that will never be correct in these simulations is the impact of GBoM on 2 additional targets, so on a fight like Iskar you most assuredly would have GBoM on your two highest AoE dps which would then be added to ours (as much as i hate the Greater Blessing system it is a point to remember) which would account for some of the disparity.

[Reghame]

I also go with Zeal because our basic cleave is really bad. I played around and finally got AMR to work and came to one of two conclusions:

1. AMR is a bunch of bullpoopy
2. Balance is so damn far from done.

A few pages back we were arguing about Warriors vs. Paladins for some reason. I just ran simulations multiple times for each spec (now with average ilevel of 810 thanks to the addition of relics) and the results aren't any better. On the "Iskar" simulation, I'm showing a difference of almost 100k in some instances (with Ret on the lower end).

dont forget warriors also have a ability which does a very much overpowered amount of damage. Were talking like 10 million INSTANT burst damage on a minute CD to ALL targets in like a 40 yard range of the warrior. That ability alone is propping up warriors by a hell of a lot in the beta and during sims.

[ruiizu]

dont forget warriors also have a ability which does a very much overpowered amount of damage. Were talking like 10 million INSTANT burst damage on a minute CD to ALL targets in like a 40 yard range of the warrior. That ability alone is propping up warriors by a hell of a lot in the beta and during sims.

The Arms CD from Stromkar that does 350% weapon damage as shadow? How is that so powerful? Or was there something else? Oddly Dragon Roar sims higher than Bladestorm interestingly enough.

[Reghame]

its the fury one, you can stack a bunch of CDs with battle cry and then do a assload of damage.

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its the fury one, you can stack a bunch of CDs with battle cry and then do a assload of damage.

its basically the same problem we had when we could stack wings HA and guardian back in the day except they also have a ability that does a fuckload of damage on a minute cooldown on it's own and all the CD stacking fury can do ATM with that makes them do stupid amounts of burst damage with that ability.

[Deleted]

I also go with Zeal because our basic cleave is really bad. I played around and finally got AMR to work and came to one of two conclusions:

1. AMR is a bunch of bullpoopy
2. Balance is so damn far from done.

A few pages back we were arguing about Warriors vs. Paladins for some reason. I just ran simulations multiple times for each spec (now with average ilevel of 810 thanks to the addition of relics) and the results aren't any better. On the "Iskar" simulation, I'm showing a difference of almost 100k in some instances (with Ret on the lower end).

I have told you other classes have better tools but you don't believe me. ^^ We can keep blaming AMR. The pre-patch is releasing in 2 weeks. Lets see what balancing they can still do.

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its the fury one, you can stack a bunch of CDs with battle cry and then do a assload of damage.

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its basically the same problem we had when we could stack wings HA and guardian back in the day except they also have a ability that does a fuckload of damage on a minute cooldown on it's own and all the CD stacking fury can do ATM with that makes them do stupid amounts of burst damage with that ability.

Yes, requires taking avatar, enrage and bloodbath (and dragon's breath, why not?) no doubt. But i don't know what makes you think that is going to get nerfed when you can pop wake of ashes with wings aswell. But the warrior thing takes 3 globals in its defense.
Whats that? You can't add the judgement debuff to that? Great design ofc. No problem, our AoE is fine.

Seriously, you get me sounding like Storm.

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The Arms CD from Stromkar that does 350% weapon damage as shadow? How is that so powerful? Or was there something else? Oddly Dragon Roar sims higher than Bladestorm interestingly enough.

Dunno if you know, but dragons roar isn't just an AoE now. It increases damage done by 20% for 6 seconds and has a 20 sec cooldown. Hits like noodles though.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yep, Warriors have to go through a lot to get that much damage. They also have very reliable AOE(Whirlwind and it's new animation is boss).

[Reghame]

Yep, Warriors have to go through a lot to get that much damage. They also have very reliable AOE(Whirlwind and it's new animation is boss).

its still stackable, reliable, and at the end of the day, does the damage to back it up. although rets can indeed use wings with WoA, its not like they have 3 other +20% or more damage mods that go on top of that. its basically a problem.

[ruiizu]

I have told you other classes have better tools but you don't believe me. ^^ We can keep blaming AMR. The pre-patch is releasing in 2 weeks. Lets see what balancing they can still do.

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Yes, requires taking avatar, enrage and bloodbath (and dragon's breath, why not?) no doubt. But i don't know what makes you think that is going to get nerfed when you can pop wake of ashes with wings aswell. But the warrior thing takes 3 globals in its defense.
Whats that? You can't add the judgement debuff to that? Great design ofc. No problem, our AoE is fine.

Seriously, you get me sounding like Storm.

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Dunno if you know, but dragons roar isn't just an AoE now. It increases damage done by 20% for 6 seconds and has a 20 sec cooldown. Hits like noodles though.

I haven't run other classes so I don't know if Warrior is just an outlier or not, so can't say what area needs balancing. I still can't say for sure whether or not those tests are accurate. But I at least see where you're getting your data now.

Honestly if Wake of Ashes didn't do so much already, I'd say having it apply Judgment to all targets it hits would be fine. But with as much as it does, I think maybe that needs to be the product of another ability.

But this is just in the world where Blizzard hasn't realized just making Judgment be a self buff would be unique enough and fix most of the problem to begin with. The other possibility might be to have Divine Storm "spread" Judgment when it hits. I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned, but since I'm not in a design position, I'm stuck with "wait and see" as much as anyone else.

Interestingly enough though on Iskar I found Consecration and Divine Hammer yielded some very appreciable gains compared to other talents. I went with Zeal, Consecration, and Divine Hammer for my highest numbers.

[Deleted]

its still stackable, reliable, and at the end of the day, does the damage to back it up. although rets can indeed use wings with WoA, its not like they have 3 other +20% or more damage mods that go on top of that. its basically a problem.

I love how you think it's just warriors. Those are simply the ones i mentioned. Have you seen unholy DK's? ^^

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I haven't run other classes so I don't know if Warrior is just an outlier or not, so can't say what area needs balancing. I still can't say for sure whether or not those tests are accurate. But I at least see where you're getting your data now.

Honestly if Wake of Ashes didn't do so much already, I'd say having it apply Judgment to all targets it hits would be fine. But with as much as it does, I think maybe that needs to be the product of another ability.

But this is just in the world where Blizzard hasn't realized just making Judgment be a self buff would be unique enough and fix most of the problem to begin with. The other possibility might be to have Divine Storm "spread" Judgment when it hits. I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned, but since I'm not in a design position, I'm stuck with "wait and see" as much as anyone else.

Interestingly enough though on Iskar I found Consecration and Divine Hammer yielded some very appreciable gains compared to other talents. I went with Zeal, Consecration, and Divine Hammer for my highest numbers.

I'm glad we are on the same page now.

Divine hammer is deceptively very good. The latest nerf was a bummer.

[Coffeh]

Nevermind. I was looking at outdated info about tier bonuses.