[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Leblue]

Dungeons and raids are not similar. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

A decent Brm can solo almost all mythic0's through cheesing, los'ing, kiting, and cc'ing. Raid bosses fill your stagger bar in 1-2 hits and cannot be cheesed, los'd, kited, or cc.

I mean any raid testing with Brewmasters are going to be somewhat defunct and far from any reasonable level of tuning so isn't it early to sit here and bash the spec's viability? I mean sure, raid bosses will hit harder than mythic+ dungeons (especially mythic ones) but you've also going more than one healer trying to keep you alive. Of course if I remember right you were saying that we struggled with world bosses, heroic dungeons, and mythic+ dungeons so we can keep moving the line anyway until your points fall off a cliff like a cartoon.

[stross01]

I mean any raid testing with Brewmasters are going to be somewhat defunct and far from any reasonable level of tuning so isn't it early to sit here and bash the spec's viability? I mean sure, raid bosses will hit harder than mythic+ dungeons (especially mythic ones) but you've also going more than one healer trying to keep you alive. Of course if I remember right you were saying that we struggled with world bosses, heroic dungeons, and mythic+ dungeons so we can keep moving the line anyway until your points fall off a cliff like a cartoon.

We do struggle with world bosses, but I never said heroic dungeons or mythic0 dungeons.

But since your reading skills are shaky at best, I'll freshen the argument:

Not all world bosses are created equal. Some of them spend more than half of their time casting. This evidence is not 'anecdotal', 'strawman', 'ad hominem', 'hyperbolized' or whatever other pseudo-intellectual terminology people like to use to look smart these days. Some of them can kill you in 2-3 hits. The ones that don't will leave you with enough unpurifiable stagger to the point where you're inferior to every other tank just based on your own stagger damage.

The viability in mythic dungeons is extremely skewed. If you use CC, everything is fine. If you rotate aoe stuns, everything is fine. If you're able to kite, everything is ok-ish. If you're world-quest-geared in 835s, you're going to be fine. If you don't have stuns or pre-combat cc's, you're going to have a very bad time. On some pulls, you can just die in the first round of attacks without ISB up, resulting in a bad time.

More importantly, though, is whom you take to these mythic dungeons. If you're running 3 DH's doing 500k+ dps, you're going to be fine. If you're running an overpowered holy priest or resto druid, you're going to be fine. If you take any ranged, you're going to be dragging ass. If you take a disc priest, you're probably a skeleton. DH's doing the damage of 2-4 other dps per DH really shits up the fight durations.

FINALLY, I'm not bashing their viability. I honestly hope they launch shit-broken like Mists and Warlords. It just means that 1-2 months into the tier, we'll be buffed sky high again, resulting in a cool coast all the way till the end of Legion.

[keqe]

In any case, beta build incoming.

My prediction: Description changes on tooltips at most.

[stross01]

In any case, beta build incoming.

My prediction: Description changes on tooltips at most.

Hopefully they fix Niuzao, the class campaign, and the bullshit with Expel Harm.

[Leblue]

We do struggle with world bosses, but I never said heroic dungeons or mythic0 dungeons.

I don't think there's enough out there to make an actual point of the world bosses, but I apologize about the heroic dungeons bit because after looking through where I thought I saw it, I believe you were mentioning heroic raid bosses and not heroic dungeons so I apologize for that.

Not all world bosses are created equal. Some of them spend more than half of their time casting. This evidence is not 'anecdotal', 'strawman', 'ad hominem', 'hyperbolized' or whatever other pseudo-intellectual terminology people like to use to look smart these days. Some of them can kill you in 2-3 hits. The ones that don't will leave you with enough unpurifiable stagger to the point where you're inferior to every other tank just based on your own stagger damage.

Care to list which world bosses are more dangerous to tanks than others? I'll go sit there and afk till it kills me just so I can figure out what world bosses are confirmed brewmaster killers in my sub heroic dungeon gear just so we can zero in feedback on what needs fixing.

The viability in mythic dungeons is extremely skewed. If you use CC, everything is fine. If you rotate aoe stuns, everything is fine. If you're able to kite, everything is ok-ish. If you're world-quest-geared in 835s, you're going to be fine. If you don't have stuns or pre-combat cc's, you're going to have a very bad time. On some pulls, you can just die in the first round of attacks without ISB up, resulting in a bad time.

So what you're saying is, that more tools may be needed to be used as you go higher in difficulty and you may need to set up optimal comps to clear them in the most efficient fashion similar to how the fastest CM gold runs are done today? In addition to that if you are a bit undergeared or even "properly" geared from stuff before it'll be harder than when you come closer to overgearing a difficulty.

Not having ISB up on pulls is probably silly anyway since Keg Smash one is partially wasted if you don't have the cooldown already running. Were the melee swings all synced?

More importantly, though, is whom you take to these mythic dungeons. If you're running 3 DH's doing 500k+ dps, you're going to be fine. If you're running an overpowered holy priest or resto druid, you're going to be fine. If you take any ranged, you're going to be dragging ass. If you take a disc priest, you're probably a skeleton. DH's doing the damage of 2-4 other dps per DH really shits up the fight durations.

If I run with friends who can communicate and we run a proven better comp of course its going to be easier. I mean, if everyone picks the overpowered dps and healers of course its going to be easier and faster. What should be the average though because not everyone will be running 3 DHs and a Hpriest or Resto druid. What gear are you even looking at when you talk about these kills times.

FINALLY, I'm not bashing their viability. I honestly hope they launch shit-broken like Mists and Warlords. It just means that 1-2 months into the tier, we'll be buffed sky high again, resulting in a cool coast all the way till the end of Legion.

I mean, I thought the initial WoD version of Brewmaster was completely fine and the buff was far too much but obviously majority of people found it difficult. I'd rather not play the overtuned class though as that renders content that'll become less fun after time less fun sooner.

[stross01]

I don't think there's enough out there to make an actual point of the world bosses, but I apologize about the heroic dungeons bit because after looking through where I thought I saw it, I believe you were mentioning heroic raid bosses and not heroic dungeons so I apologize for that.

I am just going by what is, and has been, available and some basic logic. Warlord's world bosses can be tanked by any 100 in 620+ gear. Some of the first batch of Legion world bosses require gear one stage below what they actually drop.

Care to list which world bosses are more dangerous to tanks than others? I'll go sit there and afk till it kills me just so I can figure out what world bosses are confirmed brewmaster killers in my sub heroic dungeon gear just so we can zero in feedback on what needs fixing.

The giant 'wizard' and the nightmare dragon are the two that stuck out the most. The spider is trivial, because it stands there to cast, allowing you to have unlimited brews and not enough consecutive hits to be dangerous.

So what you're saying is, that more tools may be needed to be used as you go higher in difficulty and you may need to set up optimal comps to clear them in the most efficient fashion similar to how the fastest CM gold runs are done today? In addition to that if you are a bit undergeared or even "properly" geared from stuff before it'll be harder than when you come closer to overgearing a difficulty.

Not having ISB up on pulls is probably silly anyway since Keg Smash one is partially wasted if you don't have the cooldown already running. Were the melee swings all synced?

I'm saying that 'bring the class, not the player' is overwhelming. It whelms too much. I don't want to exclude my friends/guildmates because they didn't pick a spec with an AOE stun. I don't want to exclude friends/guildmates because they picked the raid healer instead of the group healer. I don't want to run 3 melee because their AOE dps shits on any ranged.

I will run ISB at the start of all pulls, regardless of Celestalon's terrible guide.

If I run with friends who can communicate and we run a proven better comp of course its going to be easier. I mean, if everyone picks the overpowered dps and healers of course its going to be easier and faster. What should be the average though because not everyone will be running 3 DHs and a Hpriest or Resto druid. What gear are you even looking at when you talk about these kills times.

A mythic0-geared dps DH does more damage than anyone I've seen thus far.

I mean, I thought the initial WoD version of Brewmaster was completely fine and the buff was far too much but obviously majority of people found it difficult. I'd rather not play the overtuned class though as that renders content that'll become less fun after time less fun sooner.

You were wrong. There's no way around it. You were egregiously wrong. The buff they did in Highmaul was fine for Highmaul, but the way they applied it and the itemization of BRF lead to problems the next tier. The same thing happened between MSV/HoF/Terrace and Throne of Thunder. It will probably be the same again in Legion.

[v1perz53]

I think my biggest fear for BrM tanking always comes down to lack of options. All of our options for survival are incredibly structured. Gift of the Ox is based on a strict damage taken formula, and there is a theoretical max healing it can do. ISB doesn't stack and will always provide the same amount of "mitigation". Choice between IB/Purify is just a math problem, where based on your damage taken using it in a certain way will give optimal survivability, but again it is unchanging and will always be the same for a given amount of incoming damage. Once you reach the point where standard GotO and ISB/PB is not enough to survive a particular source of damage, the only option you have left is Fort Brew. Once you use Fort Brew that's it, you're out of tools for mitigation/survivability. Where one of the other tanks can chose to stack several mitigation/survivability CDs as opposed to spreading them out as needed, BrM only has one singular thing on top of their normal mitigation and it is on a 5 min CD. It just seems like a dangerous combination that will either end up being balanced to work at the highest end, and thus OP at the low end or it will be balanced to work optimally at mid end with issues at highest end due to scalability.

Disclaimer: To be specific, talking about a situation with multiple mobs attacking you for less than 15% HP per hit, mobs can't be stunned or kited, just for simplicity sake. Also, Obstinate Determination can help somewhat as long as it remains with no ICD, but there is also a point where that isn't enough either, and at certain levels of damage bouncing at 35% is not an option.

[stross01]

I think my biggest fear for BrM tanking always comes down to lack of options.

Ironskin Brew is basically the only option we have.

In Legion, you'll come to appreciate your healers as the difference between good and bad is now night and day.

[Xequecal]

I'm not in beta, but considering there hasn't been much raid testing I'm not much more out of the loop than anyone else is here. Given that, I literally cannot understand how BrM can possibly be bad in raids. Beacon of Light is still a thing. Barring huge, fundamental changes in how bosses are designed, you're going to receive far more passive healing than is needed to counter the boss' damage output which means smoothing the damage matters more than anything, and you won't need to use PB much at all. I just can't see how any other tank toolkit can possibly compete with 80% stagger. Fill your weapon with Potent Kick relics and make sure ISB is always up. The boss isn't going to out-DPS beacon healing if you can avoid gibbing. Stagger/ISB also have perfect synergy with the immense backloaded heals like Bestow Faith that they're adding. Finally, in a bad situation Exploding Keg guarantees you will survive the boss's next attack even if you have massive amounts of stagger because the stagger dot can't actually kill you. I can see the overall increased damage intake relative to other tanks being an issue in 5-mans if you're not running a Paladin healer, but not in raids.

I realize that "never purify, build for 100% ISB uptime, stack mastery, rely on brew-stache and elusive brawler to keep stagger manageable" isn't all that interesting or interactive, but it's not underpowered.

[stross01]

I'm not in beta, but considering there hasn't been much raid testing I'm not much more out of the loop than anyone else is here. Given that, I literally cannot understand how BrM can possibly be bad in raids. Beacon of Light is still a thing. Barring huge, fundamental changes in how bosses are designed, you're going to receive far more passive healing than is needed to counter the boss' damage output which means smoothing the damage matters more than anything, and you won't need to use PB much at all. I just can't see how any other tank toolkit can possibly compete with 65% stagger. Fill your weapon with Potent Kick relics and make sure ISB is always up. The boss isn't going to out-DPS beacon healing if you can avoid gibbing. Stagger/ISB also have perfect synergy with the immense backloaded heals like Bestow Faith that they're adding. Finally, in a bad situation Exploding Keg guarantees you will survive the boss's next attack even if you have massive amounts of stagger because the stagger dot can't actually kill you. I can see the overall increased damage intake relative to other tanks being an issue in 5-mans if you're not running a Paladin healer, but not in raids.

I realize that "never purify, build for 100% ISB uptime, stack mastery, rely on brew-stache and elusive brawler to keep stagger manageable" isn't all that interesting or interactive, but it's not underpowered.

A boss can definitely outdps a beacon heal. Or even a few beacon healers. Beacon-and-forget is gone.

The 'smoothing' ends very soon into the fight when your stagger ticks do as much/more than a boss melee swing each tick. Even with a full mastery build, you're probably going to take 3 hits in a row, each bringing you to red stagger. You have 1-2 globals between each swing to restore your brew. The Celestalon situation is about how it works, except that you have 0-1 Ox orbs and the Celestalon happens every five seconds.

The bolded part is actually the opposite. Brewmasters are too strong in 5mans. You don't even need a group unless you're pulling foolishly or in high mythic. The rest of the group are remora to your shark.

[Leblue]

I'm not in beta, but considering there hasn't been much raid testing I'm not much more out of the loop than anyone else is here. Given that, I literally cannot understand how BrM can possibly be bad in raids. Beacon of Light is still a thing. Barring huge, fundamental changes in how bosses are designed, you're going to receive far more passive healing than is needed to counter the boss' damage output which means smoothing the damage matters more than anything, and you won't need to use PB much at all. I just can't see how any other tank toolkit can possibly compete with 65% stagger. Fill your weapon with Potent Kick relics and make sure ISB is always up. The boss isn't going to out-DPS beacon healing if you can avoid gibbing. Stagger/ISB also have perfect synergy with the immense backloaded heals like Bestow Faith that they're adding. Finally, in a bad situation Exploding Keg guarantees you will survive the boss's next attack even if you have massive amounts of stagger because the stagger dot can't actually kill you. I can see the overall increased damage intake relative to other tanks being an issue in 5-mans if you're not running a Paladin healer, but not in raids.

I realize that "never purify, build for 100% ISB uptime, stack mastery, rely on brew-stache and elusive brawler to keep stagger manageable" isn't all that interesting or interactive, but it's not underpowered.

It'll probably be less effective in more difficult content because you'll eventually take more damage than you would have purifying and unless you literally forsake everything for it and play perfect you'll still have holes where its not up. I'm not saying this won't actually work, in fact it'll probably work for most dungeons (i.e. heroic and maybe even low mythic dungeons) and lfr, normal, and potentially heroic raids with some gear. I don't think there'll be a whole lot of nuance when it comes to the spec in your early tier, but I see potential in mythic if the class isn't tuned to fall flat on its face relative to incoming damage (which it shouldn't be, it'll be viable to some degree). Also I think you're grossly overestimating Flaming Keg :P.

You were wrong. There's no way around it. You were egregiously wrong. The buff they did in Highmaul was fine for Highmaul, but the way they applied it and the itemization of BRF lead to problems the next tier. The same thing happened between MSV/HoF/Terrace and Throne of Thunder. It will probably be the same again in Legion.

How was I wrong? We didn't even get to play the tier at all with Brewmaster in their current state so I'm not sure how I was wrong. The flat stagger buff was too much. The guard buff, maybe at half the amount they gave would've been fine to help out people but overall the buffs were far overboard and unnecessary because the thing that made BrM so OP in BRF wasn't the gearing. It was the fact that Stagger literally countered every single dangerous mechanic perfectly and without peer and it wasn't taken into account until after the tier was over because they didn't learn from things like Malkorok in SoO. Having two charges of guard arguably made it worse in regards to making us OP to boot.

A mythic0-geared dps DH does more damage than anyone I've seen thus far.

Isn't this literally the definition of a potential tuning problem though? I mean it could also be the DHs you've played with are simply better than the other players you've been with. I'm more willing to bet it has something to do with the fact numbers aren't close to done.

I'm saying that 'bring the class, not the player' is overwhelming. It whelms too much. I don't want to exclude my friends/guildmates because they didn't pick a spec with an AOE stun. I don't want to exclude friends/guildmates because they picked the raid healer instead of the group healer. I don't want to run 3 melee because their AOE dps shits on any ranged.

"Bring the Class" is always overwhelming when you're doing relatively cutting edge things, that's never changed. The only time "Bring the player, not the class" actually works is after you're out of that tip top level and even then mythic raiding at least is designed with a notion of having X of something. So far as dungeons, it again falls right back to what happens with your top times in CMs. People find the optimal comp per dungeon that will push the fastest (in this case highest) and will find tricks to make the dungeon easier (like what their comp can get away with chain cc'ing and pulling) and do so. Your average group in mythic+ will probably eventually catch up but in the end be a bit behind that absolute bleeding edge. The only way everything is equal class wise is to make everything exactly the same. Its a problem, but not one with a solution we probably want.

The giant 'wizard' and the nightmare dragon are the two that stuck out the most. The spider is trivial, because it stands there to cast, allowing you to have unlimited brews and not enough consecutive hits to be dangerous.

I'm going to go afk in front of each world boss and let you know how they go as in how long it takes for afk leblue to die and roughly how hard they're hitting. I'll even swap off High Tolerance.

I am just going by what is, and has been, available and some basic logic. Warlord's world bosses can be tanked by any 100 in 620+ gear. Some of the first batch of Legion world bosses require gear one stage below what they actually drop.

While it might be the case now, tuning could possibly change it. Its something worth pointing out though if it feels like its a bit much. That said its really easy to gear via world quests right now with there being something of a time gate in their availability.

[stross01]

How was I wrong? We didn't even get to play the tier at all with Brewmaster in their current state so I'm not sure how I was wrong. The flat stagger buff was too much. The guard buff, maybe at half the amount they gave would've been fine to help out people but overall the buffs were far overboard and unnecessary because the thing that made BrM so OP in BRF wasn't the gearing. It was the fact that Stagger literally countered every single dangerous mechanic perfectly and without peer and it wasn't taken into account until after the tier was over because they didn't learn from things like Malkorok in SoO. Having two charges of guard arguably made it worse in regards to making us OP to boot.

The buffs occurred after Highmaul was released. Having mastery available on every piece, on top of Serenity Purifying Brew 4-set spam, with double bonus armor/mastery trinkets was too much.

Isn't this literally the definition of a potential tuning problem though? I mean it could also be the DHs you've played with are simply better than the other players you've been with. I'm more willing to bet it has something to do with the fact numbers aren't close to done.

Indeed, it is. But probably in a way that went over your head. It means that fight durations are much shorter than 'normal' and all of them having Chaos Nova lowers the healing/brew count involved.

"Bring the Class" is always overwhelming when you're doing relatively cutting edge things, that's never changed. The only time "Bring the player, not the class" actually works is after you're out of that tip top level and even then mythic raiding at least is designed with a notion of having X of something. So far as dungeons, it again falls right back to what happens with your top times in CMs. People find the optimal comp per dungeon that will push the fastest (in this case highest) and will find tricks to make the dungeon easier (like what their comp can get away with chain cc'ing and pulling) and do so. Your average group in mythic+ will probably eventually catch up but in the end be a bit behind that absolute bleeding edge. The only way everything is equal class wise is to make everything exactly the same. Its a problem, but not one with a solution we probably want.

I want to start needing a specific composition at Mythic 15+, not at Mythic 2.

I'm going to go afk in front of each world boss and let you know how they go as in how long it takes for afk leblue to die and roughly how hard they're hitting. I'll even swap off High Tolerance.

Good luck. Hopefully, they've changed them with this last build.

While it might be the case now, tuning could possibly change it. Its something worth pointing out though if it feels like its a bit much. That said its really easy to gear via world quests right now with there being something of a time gate in their availability.

I have serious doubts they give a shit what's in the class feedback threads at this point. They made it pretty clear they aren't interested in our opinions two builds after putting in the brewmaster.

I can't stay online long enough to test anything, though.

[Leblue]

The buffs occurred after Highmaul was released. Having mastery available on every piece, on top of Serenity Purifying Brew 4-set spam, with double bonus armor/mastery trinkets was too much.

Highmaul released December 2nd 2014 http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/15142455399#1

The hotfixes that buffed Brewmaster occured November 25th 2014 one week before Highmaul released http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...alance-Changes

So no, Highmaul was never done prebuff. So far as Mastery on all your gear.

Weapons: Phemos Slasher X2
Helm: Koragh Haste/Mastery
Neck: No neck with Mastery in Highmaul
Shoulders: There was only crit/haste
Back: Kargath Bladefist
Chest: Only a haste/versatility one off Kargath
Wrists: Crit/Haste off butcher
Hands: Vers/mastery off kargath
Waist: Crit/Mastery butcher
Legs: Haste/Mastery Imperator
Feet: Vers/Mastery Brackenspore or Crit/Mastery (with less Mastery than the others) from Tectus
ring: Mastery/BA off Ko'ragh
Trinkets: You've got EAE and Pol's both fantastic trinkets (mastery w/ BA proc and BA with Mastery clicky respectively)

Yes you could stack mastery if you got all the right pieces for a total of 1486 Mastery rating if you really went for it from gear (not counting enchants/gems because the piece doesn't matter) up to roughly 8.4% mastery from gear not counting warforged in mythic. Heroic gear you're looking at 1264 total mastery for a total 7.18 %. While pretty strong, not necessarily the reason stagger was game breaking.

Indeed, it is. But probably in a way that went over your head. It means that fight durations are much shorter than 'normal' and all of them having Chaos Nova lowers the healing/brew count involved.

That'd be the case for any sort of burst class/comp wouldn't it? I'm still reading it as "overtuned". I mean if I stack arcane mages and sub rogues right now fight durations are longer and stuff doesn't matter too. Unless they of course plan to have this be normal and what "everybody should do". If so, alrighty then.

I want to start needing a specific composition at Mythic 15+, not at Mythic 2.

When everyone gears up a bit more and people become more familiar with stuff and strats become more widespread I'm sure they will? I'm sure y'all haven't pulled it that much that you'd have everything planned out yet? Unless you have, then I'll defer but I'm holding off on my opinions till I do it myself.

Good luck. Hopefully, they've changed them with this last build.

World Bosses not having their world crash mechanic would be nice.

I have serious doubts they give a shit what's in the class feedback threads at this point. They made it pretty clear they aren't interested in our opinions two builds after putting in the brewmaster.

I can't stay online long enough to test anything, though.

Yeah new build is hitting a rough patch right now and I don't envy their server engineers. I also wouldn't say they aren't interested but their communication is obviously lacking. Whether its them not wanting to eat their own words or stir something up I dunno, but I'd be very surprised if they aren't reading and talking about what's being posted.

[stross01]

Highmaul released December 2nd 2014 http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/15142455399#1

The hotfixes that buffed Brewmaster occured November 25th 2014 one week before Highmaul released http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...alance-Changes

"Please note that some of the class tuning changes listed below are not yet live and are still in the process of being implemented."

You skimmed over this tidbit here.

So far as Mastery on all your gear.

Yes you could stack mastery if you got all the right pieces for a total of 1486 Mastery rating if you really went for it from gear (not counting enchants/gems because the piece doesn't matter) up to roughly 8.4% mastery from gear not counting warforged in mythic. Heroic gear you're looking at 1264 total mastery for a total 7.18 %. While pretty strong, not necessarily the reason stagger was game breaking.

I thought the 4-set clue would be enough to imply BRF, but I guess not. I meant in BRF.

That'd be the case for any sort of burst class/comp wouldn't it? I'm still reading it as "overtuned". I mean if I stack arcane mages and sub rogues right now fight durations are longer and stuff doesn't matter too. Unless they of course plan to have this be normal and what "everybody should do". If so, alrighty then.

Again, over your head. Their high dps, their overtuned dps, their bigger-than-everyone-else number on skada is giving our tanking inaccurate reflection. If you can spend an entire fight under ISB because of the duration a DH gives you, it'll be a lot different when you bring a 30-40% as much mage or warlock. The high damage is also not a burst, it's a sustain.

When everyone gears up a bit more and people become more familiar with stuff and strats become more widespread I'm sure they will? I'm sure y'all haven't pulled it that much that you'd have everything planned out yet? Unless you have, then I'll defer but I'm holding off on my opinions till I do it myself.

More familiar with the 'stuff' they don't have or the strats that involve the aoe stun they don't have? Mythic dungeons are the exact same as normal and heroic counterparts, aside from some boss abilities, mob damage, and hp. Once you've done them all 2-3 times, you should've figured out the optimal path.

Yeah new build is hitting a rough patch right now and I don't envy their server engineers. I also wouldn't say they aren't interested but their communication is obviously lacking. Whether its them not wanting to eat their own words or stir something up I dunno, but I'd be very surprised if they aren't reading and talking about what's being posted.

No, they don't give a fuck. The monk artifacts/class campaigns have been broken so many times since it went on alpha, and to this day, is still broken. It's been broken for weeks with many forum posts about it. We've had three talent changes in how long? They haven't even skimmed over the 100 talents. They've only changed Gift of the Ox in a minor way. Every other class gets immense changes in balance, playstyle, "CLASS FANTASY", and fun factors. We're the same now as we were months ago: baselines moved to talents and a full set of irrelevant, passive 100's with almost no impact on a fight whatsoever.

[Tech614]

"Please note that some of the class tuning changes listed below are not yet live and are still in the process of being implemented."

As in requires a server restart... which happened the day of and would have certainly happened when Highmaul released.

Seriously dude could you be any more of a straw grasper in this thread? You seem to be offering nothing of note to it.

[keqe]

"Please note that some of the class tuning changes listed below are not yet live and are still in the process of being implemented."

You skimmed over this tidbit here.

I do personally remember the buffs. That "not yet live" part existed only for hours. I remember telling our healer to come to dungeon with me to check out the ridiculous buffs we got. And highmaul wasn't even there yet.

It was certainly active for multiple days before release of Highmaul. It was an hotfix and didn't require server restart. The tooltips just weren't updated.

[stross01]

As in requires a server restart... which happened the day of and would have certainly happened when Highmaul released.

Seriously dude could you be any more of a straw grasper in this thread? You seem to be offering nothing of note to it.

I could be. Thanks for cherry-picking the only unconfirmable thing out of everything I've posted for weeks. I'll give you guys this one, since your overwhelming memories are more numerous than mine and the changelog doesn't support either side.

I'm still waiting for your useful input to this thread, though, "Tech614". I will keep f5'ing until you become relevant to live, beta, past, present, or future.

[Leblue]

"Please note that some of the class tuning changes listed below are not yet live and are still in the process of being implemented."

You skimmed over this tidbit here.

As others said that took a reset.

I thought the 4-set clue would be enough to imply BRF, but I guess not. I meant in BRF.

Well I already know I was on the extreme end of mastery stacking versus some of my fellows. I think I got up to 62% or so iirc but that was a while ago and with multiple pieces of mythic gear obviously. I personally used two piece and grabbed anything and everything with mastery outside of going from heroic to mythic obviously (so I had the bloody haste/multi belt till HFC). I'll give you the two pieces that have mastery for the tier and ignore the rest because I only heard of people seriously swapping to it for mythic blackhand.

Weapon - Oregorger Crit/Mastery
Helm - Iron Maidens Mastery/Multi
Neck - Darmac Mastery/BA
Shoulders - Tier Mastery/Multi
Back - Oregorger Mastery/BA
Chest - Darmac Mastery/Multi
Wrist - Kromog Mastery/Multi
Hands - Tier Crit/Mastery
Waist - Butcher Crit/Mastery (because why not even if its worse off but we'll say its mythic to help)
Legs - Blackhand Mastery/Multi
Feet - Iron Maidens Mastery/Multi
Ring - H&F Mastery/BA
Trinkets - BFD and TTT (only TTT has static mastery).

So now that we've stocked up to do our mythic progression with all the mastery that we can possibly muster from gear while having the two piece we're sitting at 1927 Mastery rating or just shy of 11% more stagger at 10.94 but we can round up. We're looking at a 3.82 difference in stagger but nothing that's really going to make or break it from just gearing mastery alone (hence why you had people running ChiEx until Blackhand on Mythic like Misume). The overbuffing and designs of the fights had way more to do than the fact you could stack mastery ad nauseum. You also had the problem of how stupid Holy Paladins were and how wonderfully they synergized with a tank that literally cut off up to 60%+ upfront damage consistently and always. Regardless stacking the gear alone wasn't breaking anything. The encounter mechanics, overbuffing the ever living hell out of a spec that didn't need near as much as it got (if any), and some other problems were what was breaking things not stacking mastery.

Again, over your head. Their high dps, their overtuned dps, their bigger-than-everyone-else number on skada is giving our tanking inaccurate reflection. If you can spend an entire fight under ISB because of the duration a DH gives you, it'll be a lot different when you bring a 30-40% as much mage or warlock. The high damage is also not a burst, it's a sustain.

If it goes live like this I'll be stunned. I don't have faith in blizzard for some things, but leaving it so 3 Demon Hunters doing far more damage than everyone else in Mythic+ is something that I'd think would be on their radar to fix in some way shape or form. I'm up to being proven wrong on this one though because its up to blizzard to determine how important something like this is balance wise.

More familiar with the 'stuff' they don't have or the strats that involve the aoe stun they don't have? Mythic dungeons are the exact same as normal and heroic counterparts, aside from some boss abilities, mob damage, and hp. Once you've done them all 2-3 times, you should've figured out the optimal path.

No, they don't give a fuck. The monk artifacts/class campaigns have been broken so many times since it went on alpha, and to this day, is still broken.It's been broken for weeks with many forum posts about it.

Alpha/Beta is going to have broken things and for all we know fixes work for periods then break again. That's part of the process. Complaining something that's most likely not going to make it live because it literally ruins the leveling experience is pretty slim, especially if numerous people (yourself included) are reporting it. Its what alpha/beta are for, but hey we can sit here and complain that alpha/beta don't work perfectly and have bugs too because that's what you're doing right now. I'd rather them fix server, world crashing because of world bosses, and things that prevent you from moving on in the overall expac story first and get to less wide spread things later. Seriously, if bugs and things not working really bothers you this much and its not worth your time don't play beta. You'll be happier for it.

We've had three talent changes in how long? They haven't even skimmed over the 100 talents. They've only changed Gift of the Ox in a minor way. Every other class gets immense changes in balance, playstyle, "CLASS FANTASY", and fun factors. We're the same now as we were months ago: baselines moved to talents and a full set of irrelevant, passive 100's with almost no impact on a fight whatsoever.

Look, I'm just as dissappointed and made it known I'm disappointed about how awful and pitiful our 100 talents are right now. I don't think many people will disagree with that. The playstyle did get a good shake-up, one I've actually grown to enjoy but if it'll last through a few months of farm is obviously yet to be seen. In the meantime I don't think its a bad thing. So far as class fantasy and what not being their new buzzword, I don't think Brewmaster does its badly but that's where it becomes subjective. For the record, I think blizzard is going to end up killing the "fun factor" of tanking in the end but I don't blame the spec for this problem.

Desperate Measures and Dave are the only two things that got relegated to being moved into the talent/artifact trees for Brewmaster. We obviously lost SCK, EB, and Guard (which funnily enough Demon Hunters just got which made me chuckle a little). The playstyle of Brewmaster changed. I know a lot of people who hate it and I know others who like it now or, like myself, have grown to enjoy it. I don't expect the new Legion Brewmaster to appeal to a lot of current ones. I do expect it to appeal to some who found Brewmaster too spammy but like the aesthetic of the spec.

[Saiyoran]

What a shitshow this thread turned into.

[stross01]

If it goes live like this I'll be stunned. I don't have faith in blizzard for some things, but leaving it so 3 Demon Hunters doing far more damage than everyone else in Mythic+ is something that I'd think would be on their radar to fix in some way shape or form. I'm up to being proven wrong on this one though because its up to blizzard to determine how important something like this is balance wise.

I don't care how much damage they do, though. The only take-away I value from it is the change in fight duration which changes the way we're balanced.

Alpha/Beta is going to have broken things and for all we know fixes work for periods then break again. That's part of the process. Complaining something that's most likely not going to make it live because it literally ruins the leveling experience is pretty slim, especially if numerous people (yourself included) are reporting it. Its what alpha/beta are for, but hey we can sit here and complain that alpha/beta don't work perfectly and have bugs too because that's what you're doing right now. I'd rather them fix server, world crashing because of world bosses, and things that prevent you from moving on in the overall expac story first and get to less wide spread things later. Seriously, if bugs and things not working really bothers you this much and its not worth your time don't play beta. You'll be happier for it.

I play beta to find problems. When I find the problems that prevent further play, report them, and they're broken for a month after that, it's a problem. If it doesn't get fixed, how can anyone know if there are more bugs further up the quest line? Having to wait weeks for them to fix a bug so you can move on to the next bug that takes weeks to fix is pretty lazy. Crunching every bit of fixing into the last 28 days until the patch goes to the PTR seems ill-planned.

Look, I'm just as dissappointed and made it known I'm disappointed about how awful and pitiful our 100 talents are right now. I don't think many people will disagree with that. The playstyle did get a good shake-up, one I've actually grown to enjoy but if it'll last through a few months of farm is obviously yet to be seen. In the meantime I don't think its a bad thing. So far as class fantasy and what not being their new buzzword, I don't think Brewmaster does its badly but that's where it becomes subjective. For the record, I think blizzard is going to end up killing the "fun factor" of tanking in the end but I don't blame the spec for this problem.

Elusive Dance is pretty powerful, I can't complain. Fortified Mind is just god-awful with High Tolerance close by.

Desperate Measures and Dave are the only two things that got relegated to being moved into the talent/artifact trees for Brewmaster. We obviously lost SCK, EB, and Guard (which funnily enough Demon Hunters just got which made me chuckle a little). The playstyle of Brewmaster changed. I know a lot of people who hate it and I know others who like it now or, like myself, have grown to enjoy it. I don't expect the new Legion Brewmaster to appeal to a lot of current ones. I do expect it to appeal to some who found Brewmaster too spammy but like the aesthetic of the spec.

I don't equate Desperate Measures and Obstinate Determination at all. The only commonality they share is that they both fill your hp bar. Expel Harm doesn't do anywhere close to what an Ox orb can. You can't cheese Expel Harm to generate a complete heal in 1-2 seconds for 0 energy. Expel Harm can't be pooled in the quantities of Gift of the Ox. You can still be 100% offense and still heal with an Ox orb, as you aren't forced to trade half of your energy for it.

I have no fuckin clue what a Dave is, though.