Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Philondra]

Where are you getting the idea that DKs have the lowest raid utility? We have Death Grip, Gorefiend's Grasp (which is super to the DH version because it's instant), and a battle res.

[Hashcrypt]

So objectively, how does Blood compare to the other tanks in Legion?

Is Blood "fun" to play? Is there a skill cap at all?

And of course most importantly, how is their performance thus far as a tanking doing mythic dungeons and raids? Are the self-heals and shields making up for their lack of pure mitigation? Or are Blood DK's having to work several times harder than druids and paladins in order to just survive similar encounters?

[Deleted]

Again, all tanks got nerfed, not just DK's. There is no reason to complain as much as some have. DK still bring the best utility of any tanks when it comes to dungeons, and CC, well, nothing is CCable in a raid, and if it is, that's the DPS job anyway. Mobility for what? Sure, it might suck a bit, but I can't think of one mechanic that was impossible to do as a DK cause of the lack of mobility in either WoD or the beta bosses I've done.

I might have phrased that wrong.
I'm not complaining about the damage nerf, I'm not in beta and from what I've seen in various videos dks were topping damage meters in aoe.

I was referring to the fact that all tanks damage got nerfed, but dks were still hilarously high. I think it's fine, and the way it should be.
Despite what you may believe, dks don't even offer half of the utility that a protection paladin brings with all their blessings, heals and aoe controls. Also being the slowest tank of the game might not make a boss "impossible" like you said, but it's still a minus under every angle you want to see it.
As such, they way I see it, dks doing the most damage among all tanks it's prefectly fine.

[Deleted]

So objectively...

Is Blood "fun" to play?

...erm. Well, I find it fun.

- - - Updated - - -

I might have phrased that wrong.
I'm not complaining about the damage nerf, I'm not in beta and from what I've seen in various videos dks were topping damage meters in aoe.

I was referring to the fact that all tanks damage got nerfed, but dks were still hilarously high. I think it's fine, and the way it should be.
Despite what you may believe, dks don't even offer half of the utility that a protection paladin brings with all their blessings, heals and aoe controls. Also being the slowest tank of the game might not make a boss "impossible" like you said, but it's still a minus under every angle you want to see it.
As such, they way I see it, dks doing the most damage among all tanks it's prefectly fine.

Think he was referring to that flat out falsehood that DK's have the worst utility of any tank.

[Oatz]

So is it normal that I'm able to get to much higher tank dummy stacks on a veng DH than blood DK in premade 110 gear? Is that a fair comparison?

[Deleted]

Where are you getting the idea that DKs have the lowest raid utility? We have Death Grip, Gorefiend's Grasp (which is super to the DH version because it's instant), and a battle res.

Think he was referring to that flat out falsehood that DK's have the worst utility of any tank.

Let's compare utility and cc all tanks have then.

DK:
Death Grip
Gorefend Grasp 3min (2min if talented)
Battle Ress (not exclusive)
Asphyxiate

Druid:
Stampeding Roar
Healing Touch
Remove Corruption
Entangling Roots
Incapacitating Roar
Battle Ress (not exclusive)
Restoration Affinity (talent)
Level 60 cc of your choice (talents)

Paladin:
Hammer of Justice
Flash of Light
Cleanse Toxins
Blessing of protection (spellwarding if talented)
Blessing of Sacrifice
Repentance (talent)
Blinding Light (talent)
Blessing of Salvation (talent)
Hand of the protector (talent)
Final Stand (talent)
Aegis of Light (talent)
Judgment of Light (talent)
Consecrated Ground (talent)

Demon Hunter:
Sigil of Chain
Sigil of Silence
Sigil of Misery
Darkness
Nether Blood (talent)

Monk:
Effuse
Detox
Chi Burst (talent)
Chi Wave (talent)
Tiger Lust (talent)
Ring of Peace (talent)
Leg Sweep (talent)

Now, DH, Wars and Monks don't actually have that much utility more than dks (especially if you consider that some of them are talents you won't take), but I find undeniable the fact every other tank offer more and more reliable utility than dks: grip/mass grip don't work on everything, neither they are always required, and a battle ress is something that other classes/specs bring to the table.

[Deleted]

Let's compare utility and cc all tanks have then.



Druid:
Healing Touch

Monk:
Effuse
Detox
Chi Wave (talent)
Ring of Peace (talent)

Really? Are we really listing these?

Liking how the dk talents (using the above logic) have conveniently been left out.

[meian]

Let's compare utility and cc all tanks have then.

Now, DH, Wars and Monks don't actually have that much utility more than dks (especially if you consider that some of them are talents you won't take), but I find undeniable the fact every other tank offer more and more reliable utility than dks: grip/mass grip don't work on everything, neither they are always required, and a battle ress is something that other classes/specs bring to the table.

I think it'd be kinda sweet if BRez gave a different buff depending on who casts it.
Examples:

Blood DK/Guardian Druid - 100% health, 50% mana, 25% damage reduction for 15sec
DPS specs - 75% health, 75% mana, 10% increased versatility for 15sec
Resto Druid - 100% health, 100% mana, 20% increased healing for 15sec

Obviously those numbers are all extremely rough but it'd be kinda cool in my opinion.

[Deleted]

Really? Are we really listing these?

They are a form of utility. As I said, it's unlikely that some of these talents will be actually taken, or even used (a monk turning on his raid to launch a chi burst is ridicoulus), but they are there. I don't get why you shun Chi Wave and Ring of Peace.

Liking how the dk talents (using the above logic) have conveniently been left out.

I agree. I was focused on listing other tanks, I forgot to include Mark of Blood and Tremble before me. My bad.

[Hashcrypt]

Is there a consensus on the initial artifact weapon path Blood should take?

[Resurgo]

Is there a consensus on the initial artifact weapon path Blood should take?

pretty sure that was covered about 2 or 3 pages back.

[Bearshield]

Let's compare utility

Druid:
Stampeding Roar
Battle Ress (not exclusive)

Fixed that for you. Those are the only "utility" I have as a Bear, and like DK's, Brez is not exclusive to tank spec so you could argue that's not even worth mentioning.

[redfella]

Fixed that for you. Those are the only "utility" I have as a Bear, and like DK's, Brez is not exclusive to tank spec so you could argue that's not even worth mentioning.

Affinities might prove quite useful, and mass roots (hey maidens) and typhoon+vortex (mini mass grip) sure are useful at times.

[Kapaya]

Yes, Paladin has always been the best raid utility class and that is nothing new. You can pretty much say that Paladin > Rest combined. But your list is just... If an add can be CCd, it can be gripped. If it can't, then all form of "utility" others bring as CC is useless. Unlike the 5 other classes that can stun/slow/dispell/heal/whateveryouthinkisamazingutilitythatatankshouldbedoing, no one other than blood DK brings AoE grip (DH one is pretty damn weak, they need to be pretty stacked for it to grip them together) and is most of the time trivializing fights (hello Mannoroth).

[Deleted]

Yes, Paladin has always been the best raid utility class and that is nothing new. You can pretty much say that Paladin > Rest combined. But your list is just... If an add can be CCd, it can be gripped. If it can't, then all form of "utility" others bring as CC is useless. Unlike the 5 other classes that can stun/slow/dispell/heal/whateveryouthinkisamazingutilitythatatankshouldbedoing, no one other than blood DK brings AoE grip (DH one is pretty damn weak, they need to be pretty stacked for it to grip them together) and is most of the time trivializing fights (hello Mannoroth).

I like how you are arrogantly mock my view of tank utility, while you seem to understand almost nothing about it.
A tank job is to, surprise, tank. You shouldn't be bothered to heal your members, nor to do something extraordinary for the raid. Utility however means to help your raid team both with your core mechanics (es. mass grip, stampeding roar) as well with out-of-your-role jobs (es. a spriest mass dispelling).

A monk using tiger lust on an ally is nothing extraordinary like you think (I do it quite frequently), as well as using things like ring of peace, entangling roots or sigil of misery to help your party in mythic+ or less frequently in raid. The fact that you actually look down to "whateveryouthinkisamazingutilitythatatankshouldbedoing" makes you, to my eyes, a mediocre tank at best.

Also I will say it again: grip and mass grip don't always work (also a horrible lie to say that every mob that can be cced can be gripped), neither they are always required. WoD is the only expansion where mass grip was so grossly overpowered due to some raid mechanics that every raid needed at least a dk. In MoP it wasn't such a strict requirement, and before that there wasn't even a mass grip. Let's take for example fights like Iron Reaver, Zakuun or Kormork using legion blood dk: none of the grips could be used, and tremble before me doesn't work on bosses. This leaves us only with MoB, if talented.

Having a situational, despite strong, utility via grips is like having no utility at all. The other tanks have other instruments, both weak or strong, that can be put to use in basically every kind of encounter, even just to make life easier. If we still had anti-magic zone, THAT would be a great realiable utility spell. Vampiric Blood also healing your raid while active (it was a set bonus in MoP if I recall correctly) was an amazing utility.

Lastly, keep shitting on DH sigils for no reason at all, as if you could so easily mock an aoe silence and an aoe fear on a 1min cd. While being not as effective as gorefiend grasp, they still do offer a mass grip mechanic (with 70% snare included) on a 2min cd baseline. With quickened sigils you can reduce the activation of all the sigils to 1 sec, and lower the cd by 20%, lowering the mass grip sigil to 1.5min cd. Yeah, spit on that.

I prove my points. You can keep babbling about how we are so good in the "utility" bracket of tanks.

[Bearshield]

Affinities might prove quite useful, and mass roots (hey maidens) and typhoon+vortex (mini mass grip) sure are useful at times.

Mass Entanglement and Typhoon are both available to all Druid specs and have very situational uses. I can think of only 2 fights in HFC where I used typhoon and none in WoD at all where I used Mass Entangle. As to Affinities, currently on beta they do less dmg than simply staying in Bear form, however using them requires the Druid to NOT be actively tanking something. I assumed the person I had been responding to was referring to tank specific utility in his post.

[Kapaya]

tl;dr.

Rofl, you need to relax. All the shit you keep posting are literally covered by the whole class. You don't bring a damn tank cause he can dispell or cause he has a heal he can cast while he's not tanking, you bring a tank to fit your raid. If your raid covers everything already, there is no other damn reason to bring a tank other than to keep aggro, do as much damage as possible and to not die (or make healers spend too much mana on said tank). There is no such thing as "help out your raid" in serious raiding, you're there for a certain reason. Just like you bring that extra Shadow Priest to Mass Dispell doesn't mean you should be spamming globals thinking you're helping when in reality, you're not. And that is where Blood utility is good: No one else has AoE grip.

Why would I not mock DH sigils? The grip is weaker (which you would know if you had beta access) and the AoE fear breaks on damage so it's completly fucking useless (oh and btw, DK's also have AoE fear with a CD a lot lower than sigil, but again, you completly ignored that talent cause reasons). If I want AoE silence, I'll bring a Boomkin. Again, you assume a tank is only worth by his utility. If you had bothered checking loggs at all, you'd know that DK's are in a pretty damn good spot now compared to other tanks while being the only one that brings something no other class or specc does (and again, the DH grip is nothing compared to DK one). Stop talking about abilities you think you know about without having tried them out yourself. Just cause Toweliee says it's the best doesn't mean it's so.


The reason I called it "whateveryouthinkisamazingutilitythatatankshouldbedoing" is cause you kept mentioning stuff and I didn't wanna spend 5 minutes writing it down, no need to get all edgy. You tank your way, I tank mine, no need to comment on abilities you have no clue about.

[Talrial]

They are a form of utility. As I said, it's unlikely that some of these talents will be actually taken, or even used (a monk turning on his raid to launch a chi burst is ridicoulus), but they are there. I don't get why you shun Chi Wave and Ring of Peace.


I agree. I was focused on listing other tanks, I forgot to include Mark of Blood and Tremble before me. My bad.

Hitting your raid as well as whatever boss or adds you are fighting with chi burst isnt laughable. Its exactly the point of the spell.

[Deleted]

Hitting your raid as well as whatever boss or adds you are fighting with chi burst isnt laughable. Its exactly the point of the spell.

Chi Burst is ridiculously strong in the right situation, I distinctly remember Brewmaster's using it on Lei Shen to deal with the Lightning Orbs.

[Shostradamus]

I could be wrong, but Blood feels more durable now than before. I like the changes. I just wish DS would heal for a bit more. I'd really like to have death's advance back too. Wraith Walk has too long of a cd for my liking.