Improving ilvl Inflation Across Difficulties

[Ahovv]

There are several problems with raiding at the moment; let's examine the ones I feel can be resolved with a simple adjustment to itemization.

1) Competitive guilds feel compelled to split-raid heroic lockouts for new content.
2) These guilds are then going in with much higher ilvl than is necessary to clear, resulting in further trivialization of content.
3) Even Normal Archimonde dropped some items which were better than BRF Mythic. Since there are several tiers beyond Normal, the ilvl expansion got out of hand and contributed to why we now have people doing several times as much damage as previously possible.

These problems can be resolved by only offering a minor ilvl increase on the same difficulty between tiers. For example, since BRF Heroic dropped 685 gear, HFC Heroic should have dropped around 700ilvl gear at its peak, similar to BRF Mythic. HFC Mythic should have dropped around 720 ilvl gear instead of up to 735. The net result is still a linear increase within the same difficulty; the difference is, there is no real benefit if you are a mythic raider to farm the easier difficulties. If you were only a heroic BRF raider you would still see substantial upgrades from your new heroic HFC gear.

Competitive guilds would no longer feel forced to run split-raid lockouts. The top-end would no longer be running content with higher ilvl than intended, which means bosses would take much longer to die if they are appropriately tuned. Finally, since the ilvl inflation is suppressed further, there is less need for a stat squish every few expansions.

There are many other issues which cannot be addressed via itemization: many raid mechanics being negated with immunities, the valor conundrum which results in extra guilds clearing mythic and promoting lazy mentalities, the fact that all raid mechanics are public and thus removing the concept of figuring out mechanics for yourself. Those would be best discussed in another thread, but I would like to hear what you guys think about my proposition. Specifically, if you feel it wouldn't work, I would like to know why.

[Sierra85]

since it's all reseting with the next expansion anyway, what does it matter if the last raid tier of an expansion inflates the numbers by alot?

[Deleted]

There are several problems with raiding at the moment; let's examine the ones I feel can be resolved with a simple adjustment to itemization.

1) Competitive guilds feel compelled to split-raid heroic lockouts for new content.
2) These guilds are then going in with much higher ilvl than is necessary to clear, resulting in further trivialization of content.
3) Even Normal Archimonde dropped some items which were better than BRF Mythic. Since there are several tiers beyond Normal, the ilvl expansion got out of hand and contributed to why we now have people doing several times as much damage as previously possible.

These problems can be resolved by only offering a minor ilvl increase on the same difficulty between tiers. For example, since BRF Heroic dropped 685 gear, HFC Heroic should have dropped around 700ilvl gear at its peak, similar to BRF Mythic. HFC Mythic should have dropped around 720 ilvl gear instead of up to 735. The net result is still a linear increase within the same difficulty; the difference is, there is no real benefit if you are a mythic raider to farm the easier difficulties. If you were only a heroic BRF raider you would still see substantial upgrades from your new heroic HFC gear.

Competitive guilds would no longer feel forced to run split-raid lockouts. The top-end would no longer be running content with higher ilvl than intended, which means bosses would take much longer to die if they are appropriately tuned. Finally, since the ilvl inflation is suppressed further, there is less need for a stat squish every few expansions.

There are many other issues which cannot be addressed via itemization: many raid mechanics being negated with immunities, the valor conundrum which results in extra guilds clearing mythic and promoting lazy mentalities, the fact that all raid mechanics are public and thus removing the concept of figuring out mechanics for yourself. Those would be best discussed in another thread, but I would like to hear what you guys think about my proposition. Specifically, if you feel it wouldn't work, I would like to know why.

No they are not. They are going in with HC gear, what is intended. You are supposed to do mythic with HC gear and that is what they are doing.

since it's all reseting with the next expansion anyway, what does it matter if the last raid tier of an expansion inflates the numbers by alot?

Because this has been same thing with all tiers and it also increases our HP+Damage/healing--->We will soon need new stats squish....

[Ahovv]

since it's all reseting with the next expansion anyway, what does it matter if the last raid tier of an expansion inflates the numbers by alot?

Because as things stand now, Blizzard is set to continue in this same manner with Legion raiding.

[Zelendria]

If there's no benefit to farming a new tier because only the level you raid at drops appropriate gear, then raiders just won't go. How does that improve raiding in the long run?
If a new tier doesn't feel powerful in comparison to the old tier then it's already failed before it started. And current tier HC should be used for M, not the previous tiers gear.

Blizz could easily tune around the assumption the very highest level raiders will split farm. Or do something to eradicate it completely.

Also part of the reason DPS jumped so high was the ring, which obviously will be gone, and the broken RPPM trinkets which have been confirmed as being fixed for Legion.

[Ahovv]

If there's no benefit to farming a new tier because only the level you raid at drops appropriate gear, then raiders just won't go. How does that improve raiding in the long run?
If a new tier doesn't feel powerful in comparison to the old tier then it's already failed before it started. And current tier HC should be used for M, not the previous tiers gear.

Blizz could easily tune around the assumption the very highest level raiders will split farm. Or do something to eradicate it completely.

Also part of the reason DPS jumped so high was the ring, which obviously will be gone, and the broken RPPM trinkets which have been confirmed as being fixed for Legion.

So those other games just "have it wrong" that there is one difficulty which is extremely hard? Do you really think top end players enjoy farming lesser difficulties just to get gear?

I see absolutely nothing wrong with mythic gear from one tier being the best gear for progression on the next tier of mythic. If your only argument is "players won't do heroic," then, yes, that is the partly the point. There shouldn't be a requirement to farm multiple difficulties of the same content. You should be doing the same difficulty as you were before.

[Deleted]

Biggest problem is, that we have 4 difficulties for each tier. Remove current LFR and instead change current normal to LFR. You could still do normal by making your own group, but doing it and killing all bosses of that wing via LFR will give you lootbox that can drop loot from that wing. If you want specific loot or do it with your guild, go in from portal. Or you can just fast que it from LFR if you wanna go solo

Or just remove current normal and make current LFR drop better loot and make it just slightly harder. Either way they need to remove something. 4 difficulties is just too much.

[Zelendria]

So those other games just "have it wrong" that there is one difficulty which is extremely hard? Do you really think top end players enjoy farming lesser difficulties just to get gear?

I see absolutely nothing wrong with mythic gear from one tier being the best gear for progression on the next tier of mythic. If your only argument is "players won't do heroic," then, yes, that is the partly the point. There shouldn't be a requirement to farm multiple difficulties of the same content. You should be doing the same difficulty as you were before.

I think raiders do enjoy farming HC in the two week window. It helps them devise strategies, weigh up what classes are strongest for each fight, and think that even if you removed gear entirely they would still go for these reasons alone.
I enjoyed the HC raids while shit got real for Mythic.
I don't think split raiding is fun which you mentioned.

[Dragore]

Biggest problem is, that we have 4 difficulties for each tier. Remove current LFR and instead change current normal to LFR. You could still do normal by making your own group, but doing it and killing all bosses of that wing via LFR will give you lootbox that can drop loot from that wing. If you want specific loot or do it with your guild, go in from portal. Or you can just fast que it from LFR if you wanna go solo

Or just remove current normal and make current LFR drop better loot and make it just slightly harder. Either way they need to remove something. 4 difficulties is just too much.

I agree with this. But I honestly think mythic gear should be removed and strictly be cosmetic/titles/mounts as rewards. Raiding should be LFR > Normal > Heroic and mythic. That way mythic tuning will be based of off of gear from heroic item level and still maintain the difficulty throughout its life cycle instead of just rolling through eventually. Mythic should be about difficulty and skill not just as a "okay we've done heroic lets move on for more gear".

[Ahovv]

No they are not. They are going in with HC gear, what is intended. You are supposed to do mythic with HC gear and that is what they are doing.

To what extent are you claiming this? Full heroic gear? A few pieces?

[Adramelch]

To what extent are you claiming this? Full heroic gear? A few pieces?

Full heroic gear is the intended gear to start raiding Mythic without a doubt. For me at least.

[Deleted]

Full heroic gear is the intended gear to start raiding Mythic without a doubt. For me at least.

And so it is for top10 guilds too. Without split-raiding and funneling gear to those raiders, they couldn't even down those last mythic bosses. In Highmaul when mythic opened, paragon went in and did some HC to get more gear. Guilds were struggling with The Butcher, because they barely had enough gear to make enough DPS (gear check boss)

So yes full heroic gear is intended for mythic. ilvl inflation comes from multiple difficulties and last tier valor upgrading

[Ahovv]

And so it is for top10 guilds too. Without split-raiding and funneling gear to those raiders, they couldn't even down those last mythic bosses. In Highmaul when mythic opened, paragon went in and did some HC to get more gear. Guilds were struggling with The Butcher, because they barely had enough gear to make enough DPS (gear check boss)

So yes full heroic gear is intended for mythic. ilvl inflation comes from multiple difficulties and last tier valor upgrading

You realize as they clear their way to the final bosses, mythic gear drops? And the lower half of HFC definitely doesn't need full heroic gear. There doesn't need to be a mandate that "Oh, you need lots of gear from the easier difficulty first."

[Adramelch]

Sorry, but this is nonsense. You realize as they clear their way to the final bosses, mythic gear drops? And the lower half of HFC definitely doesn't need a bunch of heroic gear. There doesn't need to be a mandate that "Oh, you need lots of gear from the easier difficulty first."

That doesn't change the fact that the first mythic bosses (first half I'd say from experience) are tuned around having full heroic gear. Your assertion that "These guilds are then going in with much higher ilvl than is necessary to clear, resulting in further trivialization of content." is just plain wrong. Sure, with everyone playing at 100% you can kill the bosses undergeared (or else the tier would be insanely wrong for the average Joe mythic raider), but that doesn't mean they are overgearing the content.

[Deleted]

That doesn't change the fact that the first mythic bosses (first half I'd say from experience) are tuned around having full heroic gear. Your assertion that "These guilds are then going in with much higher ilvl than is necessary to clear, resulting in further trivialization of content." is just plain wrong. Sure, with everyone playing at 100% you can kill the bosses undergeared (or else the tier would be insanely wrong for the average Joe mythic raider), but that doesn't mean they are overgearing the content.

This guys gets it.

For third time. Mythic is not too easy for top guilds. Hell they have even said that they are just going harder and harder. Method took 472 wipes to Mythic Archimonde. Do you really think that they were overgeared for it? Last boss who had that many wipes was Al'Akir in cata. Paragon took 675 wipes

And btw. They didn't even have rings. Their average ilvl was like 720. Well paragon had one ring.

[Smitus]

Blizzard always nerfs past 4pc and makes crazy strong current 4pc'. Trinkets always increase power majorly across tiers. Split running will continue to exist until these things are changed (not easy fix sadly)

[Raugnaut]

There is no problem with the way ilvl inflates currently. Making it not inflate is taking a step back.

[Ahovv]

That doesn't change the fact that the first mythic bosses (first half I'd say from experience) are tuned around having full heroic gear. Your assertion that "These guilds are then going in with much higher ilvl than is necessary to clear, resulting in further trivialization of content." is just plain wrong. Sure, with everyone playing at 100% you can kill the bosses undergeared (or else the tier would be insanely wrong for the average Joe mythic raider), but that doesn't mean they are overgearing the content.

Almost all of the bosses in HFC have extremely lenient enrage timers. If you're actually suggesting Mythic Iron Reaver is tuned around having full heroic gear, then I don't know what to say. The dps check is simply nonexistent.

[Deleted]

Almost all of the bosses in HFC have extremely lenient enrage timers. If you're actually suggesting Mythic Iron Reaver is tuned around having full heroic gear, then I don't know what to say. The dps check is simply nonexistent.

Because it is more like a healing fight. Most of those bosses have big hard enrage timers, because before those enrage timers healers will oom or you will hit soft enrage where things start overflowing you. Or you just simply die to mechanics. How about gorefiend mythic. I dare you to go and try kill it with 720 gear and no rings.

[Ahovv]

Because it is more like a healing fight. Most of those bosses have big hard enrage timers, because before those enrage timers healers will oom or you will hit soft enrage where things start overflowing you. Or you just simply die to mechanics. How about gorefiend mythic. I dare you to go and try kill it with 720 gear and no rings.

1) With lenient enrage timers you have the option to stack healers. You aren't forced into running 2-3.
2) Gorefiend was killed with under 720 and no rings.

Unless your argument is "it is more difficult to do that" in which case I agree. You know, that's sort of the point from my original post. It would be a much more compelling encounter without extra gear.