Paragon disbanding

[Deleted]

Paragon quitting says a little bit about the state of WoW, but more about the state of Finnish raiders.

Apparently there's less than 20 raiders in the country optimal enough for Paragon. I'm sure they scoured high and low and tried to train every recruit.

Or maybe they were just so elitist, they didn't consider training others to replace those who quit.

There are plenty of raiders good enough for Paragon in finland. THats not the issue. THe issue is that a lof of people actually like the guild they are in and wont leave jsut like that.

A lot of mythic raiders are content clearing mythic. The world first race is really a bitch to be a part of to be honest. Hence why very few last long term

[Mrinformation]

Yeah... I wonder when Blizzard will realize that 20man is killing the PVE community in this game... I literally saw around 10-15 guilds on my high pop server (Azralon) break for this exact reason. Its really hard to find 20 people with good playerskill + commitment + availability to form a raid group, even in a high pop server, and its only worse on mid/low ones...

My own core, which was a healthy 10m semi-hardcore competitive group until SoO, became a nightmare to manage since the introduction of 20m Mythic, where we were constantly in need for good players and it always seemed impossible to gather a 20m consistent group.


The worst part is that im so hyped for Legion, and i love PVE and its basically the only thing i do in game, but i know i/my group of friends will face the exact same problems once the xpac is live and we start to build our core again.... x.x

If your server has 10-15 guilds breaking up, why not make new guilds through mergers. That's a lot of people willing to raid if you had a few more. Sounds to me like laziness or just flat out lie. Raids were 40 man, then 25, then 25/10, and now 20 (10-30). Stop making excuses because you suck at recruiting.

[Renedric]

Good. Guys like these are the main contributors to wow going to shit. Now blizzard can maybe start focusing on shit outside of raiding. It shouldn't be the main focus of a whole fucking expansion. They need to make raiding an addition to the end game, NOT the end game.

[Raiju]

Good. Guys like these are the main contributors to wow going to shit. Now blizzard can maybe start focusing on shit outside of raiding. It shouldn't be the main focus of a whole fucking expansion. They need to make raiding an addition to the end game, NOT the end game.

These 20-30 people have nothing to do with a whole company's focus. Blizzard employs far more people than there are even present in the #1 race.

[Deleted]

Real sports train up-and-coming players to compete at the highest levels through farm leagues or training camps.
Elite WoW raid teams look down their noses at people who aren't already the best of the best. They don't care about exploiting potential, they want someone to drop in a pre-shaped slot.

Me? I'd rather raid with my drinking buddies. I have kids, a job, and other games to play.

The problem with elite raid teams compared to pro sports teams are:

- Elite raid teams dont get millions of dollars to invest in new players and keep them satisfied even though they arent on the main team

- If an elite team picks up a random dude with no prior credentiatls to spendt several months teaching him how to raid, use addons and so on and he turns out to be shit? thats a problem

-Elite sports teams have scouts that watches new players in action before they get taken to pro teams. What does an elite raid team do in a situation where its a new player? They have no info on him at all.

its a bad comparisson

[Adramelch]

Yes we all know the arguments for the 30% drop.

Why is the drop in mythic raiders 60% compared to subs 30%? All things being equal, it should've been comparable.

Can I see some evidence of that 60%? Cause I'm not seeing that from a quick comparison between SoO and HFC. Or are you comparing Highmaul with HFC?

[Raiju]

Can I see some evidence of that 60%? Cause I'm not seeing that from a quick comparison between SoO and HFC. Or are you comparing Highmaul with HFC?

fair the 60% was highmaul (same deal), and it was over 40% early bosses SoO.. and even excluded immerseus to try to give HFC a hand.

[friedmudkipz]

You need to consider the wider picture. Something you completely failed to do.

Actually, I think I did a good job of explaining the wider picture. My post was specficially aimed at those who are failing to. Care to elaborate on why you seem to disagree?

- - - Updated - - -

Fuk man now i have seen the light, you must be right it is the exact same reason why Midwinter had recruitment problems, because they also belong to a small country, just the thought of trying to keep a 20-man rooster only with the US playerbase, it is pure madness.

Midwinter had issues because half the roster quit within a 1-2 month period. Not the same slow atrophy that Paragon had.

[Shawken]

For everyone saying that the Finnish-only thing was the problem, why was it not a problem before MoP?

Y'all cannot be this dense to not realize that while going international could fix the current issues, so many people have quit (for whatever reason) that they can no longer field an all Finnish squad (which they had no problems doing through cataclysm).

[PrairieChicken]

It would be interesting to see numbers when ex-10 manners bail out for 5 man CMs

[Gorthezar]

I hate blizzard for forcing 20 mans and by forcing 20 mans they continue to kill guilds. RIP.

[Raiju]

It would be interesting to see numbers when ex-10 manners bail out for 5 man CMs

That'll depend if CMs actually provide enough feeling of content. I am of the impression they won't for those who aren't already interested in CM records.

[A dot Ham]

Even though most of don't really care, I think this is probably one of the more significant turning points, that provides a glimpse at the health of WoW.

I mean these are people that literally experience the game to its full potential. How they play, their tactics, (sometimes their abuse of mechanics) literally shapes how the game is developed.

On the one hand I can totally understand getting burnt out playing that way. On the other hand, these are some of Blizzard's top players.

[Lahis]

That moment when a Finnish tabloid notices Paragon disbanding: http://www.iltalehti.fi/digi/2016022621178980_du.shtml

[Deleted]

has the world suddenly come to an end? no.
so a few players who can no longer cut it in wow, have spat the dummy & called it a day.
the GM/raid leader/raid group/whoever are hasbeen's & wont be missed.
hell, maybe they'll even get themselves a proper job!!
the king is dead, long live the king.

[Adramelch]

fair the 60% was highmaul (same deal), and it was over 40% early bosses SoO.. and even excluded immerseus to try to give HFC a hand.

Just for the sake of the argument, here are some numbers for the guilds that have completed various bosses within 8 months of the heroic/mythic difficulty launch. I gave a 25% extra players for bench reasons on all sizes, which means 10man kills had 13 players, 20man have 25 and 25man had 32. Also those numbers are only for West cause I can't be arsed doing the extra legwork for SoO for the Asian guilds (while doing the subtraction for HFC was much faster):

Immerseus: 295982 players (15110 10man, 3111 25man)
Fallen Protectors: 254144 players (12800 10man, 2742 25man)
Garrosh: 23152 players (688 10man, 444 25man)

Hellfire Assault: 159400 players (6376 guilds)
Iron Reaver: 140850 players (5634 guilds)
Archimonde: 22825 players (913 guilds)

So you have a 46% decrease comparing HFA to Immerseus, 44% decrease comparing Protectors to Iron Reaver (which is probably the most accurate metric) and surprisingly a 1.5% decrease comparing Archi to Garrosh.

Since 8 months from the launch of SoO heroic was the middle of May (so middle of Q2 2014), I'll do an interpolation between Q1-Q2 2014, for 7.2m subscribers. Last numbers we have for WoD is unfortunately for Q3 2015, at 5.5m subscribers. I won't go into guesswork about how many subscribers there are now, so I'll just work with that number. The SoO numbers normalised to today's subscriber base are:

Immerseus: 226097 players
Fallen Protectors: 194138 players
Garrosh: 17686 players

Again using the 2nd boss as the metric (seeing that Immerseus and HFA are a joke), there's a 27% decrease in mythic raiders. For reference, if we were to make an educated guess of 5 million subscribers currently, that's a 20% decrease. You also have to consider the amount of guilds that did both 25 and 10 in SoO (I have them down as different players but we all know there's a lot of overlap) and the decrease is even smaller, albeit still significant. If a quarter of the 25man guilds also did the 10man (I have no idea how accurate that is), that brings the total players that killed Protectors 232208, corresponding to a 21% decrease in the 5.5m-normalized numbers and a 13% decrease in the 5m-normalized numbers.

So yeah, as pretty much everyone knows, the 20man format decreased the amount of mythic raiders, but it's good to have a perspective, seeing as many pro-10 people claim that the 20man format destroyed raiding.

PS: Obviously a lot of assumptions were made in these numbers, but nothing that I don't mention.

PS2: A major underlying assumption, when normalizing by subscription numbers, is that those that killed, say, Iron Reaver mythic or Protectors heroic, were/are all still subscribed at the point of reference, which is almost definitely not true. It's a comparison that you really can't do in a fair way, as there are so many underlying (and even subjective) factors.

[Deleted]

has the world suddenly come to an end? no.
so a few players who can no longer cut it in wow, have spat the dummy & called it a day.
the GM/raid leader/raid group/whoever are hasbeen's & wont be missed.
hell, maybe they'll even get themselves a proper job!!
the king is dead, long live the king.

What makes you think they don't already?

[friedmudkipz]

has the world suddenly come to an end? no.
so a few players who can no longer cut it in wow, have spat the dummy & called it a day.
the GM/raid leader/raid group/whoever are hasbeen's & wont be missed.
hell, maybe they'll even get themselves a proper job!!
the king is dead, long live the king.

Why come on this thread only to trivialize the topic? Clearly some people care, wasting your time posting shit like this doesn't reflect well on you or your intelligence.

[judgementofantonidas]

https://www.paragon.fi/news/end-of-the-road

Well that race got boring.

yep. and oddly enough they quote the lack of a ten man raiding option to be part of the reason.

[Deleted]

I don't believe in absolutes. There are no saint humans and extreme selfish people only. Every person likes to compete and it's perfectly natural about it, I don't see the reason to demonize it.

In that reality, it's not bad to see some desire to be better in the game - and i.e. be higher ranked - at every step of the way, even if you are top 3000 and not top 3.

It doesn't have to be in a form of a flamewar or a forum post. People may want to be in that kind of competition. A single setup for the game gives it more clarity.

..

The constant flamewar environment between sizes worsened the game.

Yes, although our 10-man group never competed with any 25-man groups, probably someone in our group would compare his progress to someone in a 25-man group. But that's fine. It wouldn't create forum posts. It wouldn't create some backlog of support tickets at Blizzard HQ. It would come at no cost to Blizzard and therefor it's a non-issue to them, and indirectly to most of us.

A virtual flamewar on a forum somewhere never stopped us from enjoying competition. Most people don't read forums, they play the game.