Is Taxation Theft?

[Endus]

I consider income tax theft. Why should the government tax me before I get the money that was an even trade between me and a private group (my labor for their currency), and then tax me again once I decide I want to trade with someone for one or more goods. That's double tax, and that's bullshit.

Two points;

1> Because the Constitution says that income taxes are fine, and you knew that this was the case when you made that agreement between yourself and that private group to exchange money for labor, knowing that a portion of that money would be owed in income tax.

And;

2> There's no 'double taxation'. Money isn't taxed, transactions are taxed. You being paid your salary is a transaction, taxed. You paying for anything else after that is an additional transaction, and also taxed. Just like how whatever the person you bought from uses that money for, that's another transaction, taxed. The concept of 'double taxation' is completely nonsensical here; it's applicable in a very particular set of circumstances, with regards to income tax and corporate tax, and even there it's squirrely, but if you're trying to apply it to income and sales taxes, you're just demonstrating a complete failure to grasp the basic nature of taxation in the first place.

You are going from WAY TO MUCH TAX to NO TAX AT ALL.

There should be a middle ground.
Paying 50% of a person's income (what he works damn hard for) is just unfair.
Paying 20% to use the roads to get to work, the police/fire department once a year seems a lot more reasonable.

You have literally zero grounds on which to stake this claim. Particularly since, as above, you knew about that income tax when you arranged your salary. It's like arguing that your rent is "unfair" because you worked damn hard for that money. It's a silly argument.

[Shadowferal]

Taxation is part of the social structure of the more advanced civilized countries.

If people don't want to pay taxes then they are saying they no longer want to be part of that social structure.

[MCMLXXXII]

Or maybe we can stop spending money on stupid shit like in the Netherlands an Army, or trowing it to Suriname/Curacao for some guilt we have for something my grand parents weren't even part of or the parties the suits throw with tax money.
Or the fuckers sitting at home getting a nice pay check every month from the government.

You know, cut back on the stupid shit so I can actually enjoy the money I work for the way I want it instead of throwing it in a damn black hole.

Now that is a great idea, cut the army even more. You know countries have an army for a reason.
But enlighten me with percentages of taxes being used for all your points. Spoiler alert: It is not as much as you think.

[jakeic]

You are going from WAY TO MUCH TAX to NO TAX AT ALL.

There should be a middle ground.
Paying 50% of a person's income (what he works damn hard for) is just unfair.
Paying 20% to use the roads to get to work, the police/fire department once a year seems a lot more reasonable.

why is 50% unfair, why is 20% fair, how do you know "he works damn hard for" his income, and if he didn't work hard is it ok to tax it more?

[Chrno]

Is it an American thing to be EXTREMELY selfish? Looking through this thread it feels like it..
"I don't want to pay taxes, because I don't need these very helpful and good services that gets provided to MY people!".
How about you just pay your taxes, and take comfort in knowing that most of it goes to good causes, and that you are helping people less fortunate than you?

This is the feeling i get as well while reading this thread...
I always find it interesting to read these debates with people from the USA who complain about taxes and/or the healthsystem. The USA is structured so differently from holland.

Sure we complain about stuff too. Tax raises are always shit and people talk about that here too.
We are human after all.. But i've never heard a dutch guy say he's against paying any form of tax.
I feel like its a generally accepted idea by the dutch people that for a country to thrive taxes must be payed.

The thing that get's discussed here mostly are the people without jobs who get supported by the government and thus not contributing.

[gaymer77]

to what degree? why do I have to pay 50% of my income? I am sure I don't get a personal police officer standing outside my door 24/7 and my 50% income tax can pay for his monthly salary.

The fact that you DO get a police officer or paramedic or firefighter if you need it is reason enough. If you honestly need a personal police officer 24/7 then you're either doing some highly illegal stuff (which you shouldn't be like drug dealing) or you're a highly controversial politician (or wanna be like Trump) and should be able to afford one yourself. And even the rich aren't taxed 50% of their income. The majority of people are taxed 20-30% of their income before deductions and tax credits.

[iceberg265]

Taxation without representation could loosely be considered theft, but otherwise 'lol'.

[Deleted]

Quick question to people here:

- Government taxes its population 30-40% but lets corporations pay less tax 10-20%

- Government also uses the tax money of citizens to buy equities in the stock market

- Government also keeps interest rates low to stimulate even more demand for equities and encourages companies to do buybacks

- This raises stock prices and thus enables CEOs and executives to pay themselves higher bonuses, leading to a higher wealth gap between rich and poor

Would this be a fair use of taxes?

Or does that actually sound like central banks and governments taking money from everyone and giving it to the rich?

It's going to be fun when people realise this is precisely what is happening right now, after we have another 2008-style meltdown.

[Firestyle]

What fucking freebies do you think most of us get from our government?

- Everyone gets defense, otherwise Canada would take us over (or someone more hostile)
- We also get a lot of medical research paid for by government grants that help develop technology and medicines
- Education, both K-12 and Universities get government money
- The court system, including public defense if needed and jails, to keep criminals away
- Roads, road maintenance and clearing
- Infrastructure - public water, reservoirs, gas, electric (e.g., street lights)
- National and State Parks
- Zoning, building inspection and codes
- Social security, medicare
- Medicaid if eligible (welfare, food stamps, and unemployment too)

[melodramocracy]

In some cases, no. In others, absolutely. The larger issue is how little say you have in how your tax dollars are spent.

[Cthulhu 2020]

John, Beth and Sue all go to the store to get a candy bar.

John and Beth pay for the candy bar, and they all split and eat it. When John and Beth ask Sue to pay for her part of the candy bar, Sue screams "THAT'S THEFT, STOP TRYING TO STEAL MY MONEY!" Silly Sue. Welcome to the Tea Party, enjoy your stay.

[Deleted]

People who are poor often have problems to save enough money to eat. Is it because they don't work hard enough? Most of them do hard physical labour.
If I earned enough money to pay 50% I gladly would because it would benefit for the great of my country. Knowing that if I would hit rockbottom, my country would do the same for me.

Again a bleeding heart story. Its just trying to justify theft. Yes its awful that people are poor and starving.. its also awful to take away someones money who have nothing to do with the problem to fix it. Two wrongs doesnt make one right.

Also, why does it matter how hard you work? Human society is based on trade. If you do something no one needs, or if other people line up to do it cheaper, then you dont get paid well. Do something else.

[Youn]

Many on the fringe of the libertarian movement in the US hold this view of taxation, inherently being theft. What is your opinion on it? Personally I see it as a cost of living within a boundary.

In the US you sign a power of attorney giving the IRS the right to take personal income taxes from you. This was originally put in place in 1939 but updated again a few times throughout the years. This is called your W2. There is quite a few laws that have obscured the fact it originally was voluntary. At this point, though it's impossible in the US to not fill out a W2 and work for an incorporated company. Which are required to pay taxes.

So, as to taxation being Theft. No, you fully are giving them your money to do as they like. You could choose to not work for an incorporated business. But good luck finding one in the modern day.

[Unholyground]

- Everyone gets defense, otherwise Canada would take us over (or someone more hostile)
- We also get a lot of medical research paid for by government grants that help develop technology and medicines
- Education, both K-12 and Universities get government money
- The court system, including public defense if needed and jails, to keep criminals away
- Roads, road maintenance and clearing
- Infrastructure - public water, reservoirs, gas, electric (e.g., street lights)
- National and State Parks
- Zoning, building inspection and codes
- Social security, medicare
- Medicaid if eligible (welfare, food stamps, and unemployment too)

Most of those things are crap though, you guys don't even have proper medicare.