20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[kary]

You keep trying to turn a tuning issue into an ad hominem.

its a bit sad.

Ten man raiding wasn't possible beyond butcher at release.

Blizzard promised at the blizzcon before wod launched that you would be able to clear normal raids using normal dungeon gear. Heroic would require heroic dungeon gear. LFR released a month after normal and is irrelevent to this anyway.

No one, not even paragon, could clear highmaul with ten player at 605 ilvl with just ten men on the night it opened.

That's true. Because method and paragon were smarter than to attempt highmaul with 605 itemlevel.
Because highmaul was not possible at 605 itemlevel.
10 man highmaul was possible
605 itemlevel highmaul was not
605 itemlevel 30 man highmaul was not possible, either.

[Deleted]

shhh, injin is making things about himself.
Ofc if you cant do normal you can't do mythic. But ofc people are just mad at not everything centering about them.

Ofc.

If I raid ten man for 5 years and blizzard tell me ten man will be available in year 6 and I pay them for it, blizzard are failures if it aint happening. Really simple.

Quite why you think i'd blame myself for the failures of the people I am paying is beyond me. Blizzard is my bitch. They do what I want or I don't give them money.

- - - Updated - - -

That's true. Because method and paragon were smarter than to attempt highmaul with 605 itemlevel.
Because highmaul was not possible at 605 itemlevel.
10 man highmaul was possible
605 itemlevel highmaul was not
605 itemlevel 30 man highmaul was not possible, either.

Blizzard advertised 605 ten man high maul as possible.

They either lied or fucked up. Not my problem. Either way they failed.

[kary]

Ofc.

If I raid ten man for 5 years and blizzard tell me ten man will be available in year 6 and I pay them for it, blizzard are failures if it aint happening. Really simple.

Quite why you think i'd blame myself for the failures of the people I am paying is beyond me. Blizzard is my bitch. They do what I want or I don't give them money.

10 man was available
You were just underprepared.



- - - Updated - - -

Ofc.

If I raid ten man for 5 years and blizzard tell me ten man will be available in year 6 and I pay them for it, blizzard are failures if it aint happening. Really simple.

Quite why you think i'd blame myself for the failures of the people I am paying is beyond me. Blizzard is my bitch. They do what I want or I don't give them money.

- - - Updated - - -



Blizzard advertised 605 ten man high maul as possible.

They either lied or fucked up. Not my problem. Either way they failed.

cite your sources for everyone in the thread.

[Deleted]

10 man was available
You were just underprepared.


- - - Updated - - -



cite your sources for everyone in the thread.

Google.

Tell you what, if you'll give me 40kg on the server of your choice i'll go look up the actual blizzcon slides.

If you refuse i'll take it as an admission you agree with me, as will everyone else.

[kary]

Google.

Tell you what, if you'll give me 40kg on the server of your choice i'll go look up the actual blizzcon slides.

If you refuse i'll take it as an admission you agree with me, as will everyone else.

No, people won't take that as an admission of anything but you backpedaling.

Keep hiding behind your non-existent facts bruh.

Oh and, cite your sources.

[Deleted]

No, people won't take that as an admission of anything but you backpedaling.

Keep hiding behind your non-existent facts bruh.

Oh and, cite your sources.

Google it.

Lazy and cowardly at this point.

[Bonezerker]

I didn't start WoD until midway through BRF due to being deployed overseas, but don't normal lvl 100 dungeons drop ilevel 615 gear? If so, why is there even an argument that you should be able to progress through normal Highmaul with an entire raid not even having gear from normal dungeons?

[kary]

Google it.

Lazy and cowardly at this point.

You're the one hiding. Hear what. Use a lmgtfy link with your exact search parameters and I'll do it.
And you want 40k gold? Post the link then come on illidan-US. I'll even give you 60k because I'm such a nice person.

I'm begging you to post the link. Post your link. Post a video, shut me up. Actually I'll make it 100k if you post a video.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't start WoD until midway through BRF due to being deployed overseas, but don't normal lvl 100 dungeons drop ilevel 615 gear? If so, why is there even an argument that you should be able to progress through normal Highmaul with an entire raid not even having gear from normal dungeons?

Because Injin is a fucking idiot.

[Deleted]

I didn't start WoD until midway through BRF due to being deployed overseas, but don't normal lvl 100 dungeons drop ilevel 615 gear? If so, why is there even an argument that you should be able to progress through normal Highmaul with an entire raid not even having gear from normal dungeons?

Because that's how blizzard said it wouldbe at the blizzcon before wod launched.

[Bonezerker]

Because that's how blizzard said it wouldbe at the blizzcon before wod launched.

I didn't see any of that Blizzcon coverage due to my deployment. Did they originally intend level 100 dungeons to drop ilevel 605 gear and then changed it after Blizzcon to 615? If so, then they expected you to at least have gear from normal dungeons before entering the first raid, which would make the 605 vs 615 ilevel debate irrelevant. Or are you implying that Blizzard's Blizzcon announcement meant that they intended for people to progress through the first raid without even having gear from normal level 100 dungeons.

The only thing regarding ilevel that I could dig up was this post from 3 weeks after Blizzcon, which advertises ilevel 615 as being the requirements. I am assuming that TTH got this info from the Blizzard Devs since Highmaul wasn't even released when this guide was released. http://www.tentonhammer.com/guides/p...-normal-mythic

[Splenda]

Guys, quit the bickering and stay on topic. Thanks.

[Hana Song]

I think it's a failure, guilds that are small have hard to get enough members for that

[Deleted]

I think it's a failure, guilds that are small have hard to get enough members for that

That's not a problem with the design of 20 man raids. That's one of the "challanges" 20 man mythic holds, having a guild of 20+ people who are willing to raid. And if the falling sub numbers, yes players are harder to come by. But that's not a failure of the system, but think the players are responsible for.

[Hana Song]

That's not a problem with the design of 20 man raids. That's one of the "challanges" 20 man mythic holds, having a guild of 20+ people who are willing to raid. And if the falling sub numbers, yes players are harder to come by. But that's not a failure of the system, but think the players are responsible for.

It is a problem, raided fine in mop with 10 man and then comes wod and messes everything up, the guild I was in disbanded because we couldn't get enough people for mythic

[Lilija]

The thing is that most likely the group who prefers bigger format and the group that prefers smaller format are the minority. Everyone else will chose to raid the size that is easier (in general aspect). That's why 25man format was slowly dying since Cata. So the bottom line is that devs prefer bigger format. And really, in this debate, they can't make everyone happy. Having 2 formats wasn't working and one of them had to go away.

[Deleted]

It is a problem, raided fine in mop with 10 man and then comes wod and messes everything up, the guild I was in disbanded because we couldn't get enough people for mythic

Yeah, so? Your guild wanted to do 20 man content and couldn't get 20 people for it. It's a problem of players, not of the new difficulty. Your guild wasn't capable of doing it, so it didn't get to do it.

Not everything is for everyone.

[Deleted]

Back in classic we had to get 40 man just to normal...

[Deleted]

Given, that Mythic is your target, normal and heroic are not progression. They are an introduction. Mythic is progression. Doing heroic for Mythic raider is an equivalent of reading dungeon journal.

Actually it's Mythic that isn't progression (for me) anymore since I've already seen the instance and the bosses. The difficulty and the rewards do give you an illusion of progression though and it's not half bad if you enjoy it, but there's not enough incentives for me to server transfer and look for a new guild to repeat the same instance.

Titles, mounts and gear haven't been interesting for a long time, the only thing that would make me push for Mythic in these circumstances is exclusive content like Mythic only bosses, similar to what Algalon and Ra-Den were in the past.

[Lilija]

Actually it's Mythic that isn't progression (for me) anymore since I've already seen the instance and the bosses. The difficulty and the rewards do give you an illusion of progression though and it's not half bad if you enjoy it, but there's not enough incentives for me to server transfer and look for a new guild to repeat the same instance.

Titles, mounts and gear haven't been interesting for a long time, the only thing that would make me push for Mythic in these circumstances is exclusive content like Mythic only bosses, similar to what Algalon and Ra-Den were in the past.

Well, I believe you convinced yourself that but that is rather dumb reason and it means you aren't Mythic raider material in the first place. Mythic raider's main incentive is the challenge and getting better gear. Seeing the bosses is irrelevant for the majority of Mythic raiders. If seeing bosses is your main incentive Mythic is and never was for you.

[Trapped]

Your math isn't wrong, but the implication of the math is fucking bullshit. There is no substance to an argument that since you make up higher percentage of the raid's effort in a smaller raid group that it is somehow more difficult or more personally demanding. If you look at the raid as simply being dead or alive, you can make that argument but anybody who has raided any amount would know that it's not being dead or alive which usually gets kills, it's performing while you are alive. And the argument I was making is that at any given raid size, if the tuning is properly handled a player will be contributing an equal amount to the raid's overall success regardless.

The inherent problem with 10/25 split raid hierarchies is that on one level or the other, due to the near-impossibility for Blizzard to tune equally between the raid sizes player contribution is always going to shift in favor of one size or another. It's much, much better for them to tune the raid to singular raid size since it eliminates this grey area and keeps the integrity of the encounters universal instead of inexorably favoring one or the other.

If there's 13 dps in your Mythic team doing 100k dps, and 1 guy is doing 40k, will you notice it? Of course not, because it averages out to be 95.7k dps. If 5 dps in a 10-man raid are doing 100k and 1 guy is doing 40k, then that brings down the average to 90k dps. See my point?

I'm sorry if you disagree that larger raid sizes increase the wiggle room for "bads" and carries. Its simple math that YOUR performance matters MORE in a smaller group than it does in a larger one.

You're talking about "blah blah blah if raid sizes were tuned properly"... well guess what? They're not. Find some random guild that has killed Mythic Archi in the past month, and I 99% guarantee you'll see a handful of players destroying the damage meters, right alongside a handful a carries.

The game cannot support large raid teams anymore. Plain and simple.