Elemental, worth the risk?

[miffy23]

It's not just for the best of the best though. The number one issue new players seem to have with casters is movement and since thats not an issue for fire, even new or bad players will do much, much better as a fire mage than with any other caster.

I would strongly hesitate to make such claims. Especially seeing how there is - in my opinion - a far greater skill discrepancy between an outstanding mage and an average one, than between an outstanding Ele and an average one, for example.

[Aggrophobic]

I would strongly hesitate to make such claims. Especially seeing how there is - in my opinion - a far greater skill discrepancy between an outstanding mage and an average one, than between an outstanding Ele and an average one, for example.

What are you basing that claim on?
I can see that it would be the case in a patchwerk fight but in most fights, a fire mage will do way better, at least from what I've seen.

And let's be real, playing a mage or a shaman is not rocket science.

[Reze93]

Well, just about every other one to be quite fair.
Shadow is quite excellent in every aspect except maybe sustain AoE, Balance is better at mobility and spread cleave thanks to dotting. Hunter is the usual, Mage ditto. Warlocks are struggling a bit atm pending further tuning, but they'll get their spot regardless thanks to portals.

Elemental is pretty much at the mercy of having to deliver quite excellent overall DPS, or be outperformed in pretty much every niche situation except for ST burst (it's excellent, but sustain drops hard, so it ends up being average overall).

It should be noted that people have been reporting very positively about Elemental in Mythic+ thanks to Earthquake's Knockback, despite its weaksauce AoE. In a combo with some good cleave/AoE specs it does well thanks to its good ST burst damage.

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Which is why I said we perform well in that niche, and not outstandingly.

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If you want to min/max utterly, pretty much yes.
Ele is not alone in that regard, Mage outshines every other spec except perhaps Shadow for its cheesy Execute potential atm.

What do you plan on maining Miffy?

[Murderdoll]

If you need to ask MMOC if the spec is viable.

You are not doing content where Elemental is unviable.

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What do you plan on maining Miffy?

IIRC its a mage.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Elemental is fine. Its way better than it was in WoD thats for sure.
If you enjoy playing it, then play it. There is no risk. Its a video game.
If you aren't good enough to make a low-end spec good then you don't need to be asking these questions.

[miffy23]

What do you plan on maining Miffy?

I have been Enh for nearly 12 years straight and i'm staying that.
I was considering Ele for a while but it doesn't seem strong enough to justify it for my raiding level (Mythic, fighting for realm first).

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What are you basing that claim on?
I can see that it would be the case in a patchwerk fight but in most fights, a fire mage will do way better, at least from what I've seen.

And let's be real, playing a mage or a shaman is not rocket science.

My experience. The way Fire Mage works, heavily punishing small mistakes in burst windows. And the relative simplicity of Elemental in comparison.
Fire Mage has simple mechanics, but a high skill ceiling for optimal play. Ele is a far more shallow curve.

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If you need to ask MMOC if the spec is viable.

You are not doing content where Elemental is unviable.

Pretty much.
If you gotta ask, your choice won't matter that much.

[freddy090909]

It is not a risk, Elemental will be legitimately pretty bad going into Legion in its current state. We have below (but near) average single target, largely focused into our burst, and extremely bad AoE. We also bring practically no utility, however a lot of classes have been reduced in that regard.

However, even with all of that, you can still play Elemental and can still do absolutely fine. You are likely not in a guild that this matters to if you feel the need to ask this question and cannot answer it yourself. If numbers are what you find fun, roll a pure and you'll have much better luck between patches.

[Aggrophobic]

I have been Enh for nearly 12 years straight and i'm staying that.
I was considering Ele for a while but it doesn't seem strong enough to justify it for my raiding level (Mythic, fighting for realm first).

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My experience. The way Fire Mage works, heavily punishing small mistakes in burst windows. And the relative simplicity of Elemental in comparison.
Fire Mage has simple mechanics, but a high skill ceiling for optimal play. Ele is a far more shallow curve.

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Pretty much.
If you gotta ask, your choice won't matter that much.

Is that in Legion or just in the pre patch, becuase you're not at all as reliant on combustion once you get your artifact. It's still a great CD of course but you can do way more once you have the weapon.

In any case, elemental if anything needs a good burst or you your DPS is gone. As it stands right now, elemental is all about the burst and if your target is still alive after that then you're at the bottom if the DPS charts.

[Reze93]

Is that in Legion or just in the pre patch, becuase you're not at all as reliant on combustion once you get your artifact. It's still a great CD of course but you can do way more once you have the weapon.

In any case, elemental if anything needs a good burst or you your DPS is gone. As it stands right now, elemental is all about the burst and if your target is still alive after that then you're at the bottom if the DPS charts.

See, hearing this is very disheartening. Sure, I don't do mythic or high end content, but who the hell wants to be bottom of the charts? This is why I'm asking these questions.

[miffy23]

Is that in Legion or just in the pre patch, becuase you're not at all as reliant on combustion once you get your artifact. It's still a great CD of course but you can do way more once you have the weapon.

In any case, elemental if anything needs a good burst or you your DPS is gone. As it stands right now, elemental is all about the burst and if your target is still alive after that then you're at the bottom if the DPS charts.

Yeah but pulling off good Ele burst is absolutely braindead. It's also not really true that you end up "at the bottom". The excellent burst ends up averaging out to...well, average DPS atm on ST. Not bottom.

Fire requires quite a bit more awareness and tracking, basically UI fiddling and experience to really maximize it. Yes it's easy to learn, but harder to master. I'd say that gap between the two is far smaller on Ele.

[Reze93]

Yeah but pulling off good Ele burst is absolutely braindead. It's also not really true that you end up "at the bottom". The excellent burst ends up averaging out to...well, average DPS atm on ST. Not bottom.

Fire requires quite a bit more awareness and tracking, basically UI fiddling and experience to really maximize it. Yes it's easy to learn, but harder to master. I'd say that gap between the two is far smaller on Ele.

Off topic Miffy, but I assume enh is looking solid?

[miffy23]

Off topic Miffy, but I assume enh is looking solid?

Yup. Better than we were in WoD, when we were already pretty ok.

[Aggrophobic]

Yeah but pulling off good Ele burst is absolutely braindead. It's also not really true that you end up "at the bottom". The excellent burst ends up averaging out to...well, average DPS atm on ST. Not bottom.

Fire requires quite a bit more awareness and tracking, basically UI fiddling and experience to really maximize it. Yes it's easy to learn, but harder to master. I'd say that gap between the two is far smaller on Ele.

No, I meant if you mess your burst up. But yeah, it's not hard to pull off.

Maybe you're right and fire is harder but at the same time, after a few raids you should have the gameplay fixed and you'll do way, way better than a shaman of the same skill level.

It does not really matter whats harder though. Fire is way better than anything else right now and elemental is at the bottom when it comes to usefulness in raids, even at normal/heroic levels.

[miffy23]

No, I meant if you mess your burst up. But yeah, it's not hard to pull off.

Maybe you're right and fire is harder but at the same time, after a few raids you should have the gameplay fixed and you'll do way, way better than a shaman of the same skill level.

It does not really matter whats harder though. Fire is way better than anything else right now and elemental is at the bottom when it comes to usefulness in raids, even at normal/heroic levels.

Well i've said this before elsewhere, but the aspects that make certain specs/classes more desirable on Mythic are far less important on normal/heroic. Totally agree that mage is overall better, but overall usefulness is really not as critical the lower you go.

[Reze93]

Well i've said this before elsewhere, but the aspects that make certain specs/classes more desirable on Mythic are far less important on normal/heroic. Totally agree that mage is overall better, but overall usefulness is really not as critical the lower you go.

I completely agree with your stance, but honestly it's more than just the "o if I'm doing just heroic any spec is fine" mentality. I have honestly been OK with never playing FOTM, but WOD has put a sour taste in my mouth, therefore me being skeptical and asking these things before starting a main (especially with artifact weapons coming into the game, and the grind it will require). I guess another solution would be to level two classes up to 110 within the first week or two, and decide from there. It'll put me behind, but probably nothing too extreme.

[miffy23]

I completely agree with your stance, but honestly it's more than just the "o if I'm doing just heroic any spec is fine" mentality. I have honestly been OK with never playing FOTM, but WOD has put a sour taste in my mouth, therefore me being skeptical and asking these things before starting a main (especially with artifact weapons coming into the game, and the grind it will require). I guess another solution would be to level two classes up to 110 within the first week or two, and decide from there. It'll put me behind, but probably nothing too extreme.

2 specs/artifacts are not a big deal, no.

[Trollfat]

People shouldn't be talking numbers at this point. Fire is looking ridiculous right now, if you don't believe me head over to the mage forum - the entire first page is Fire. Every mage is playing it. We have 5 mages competing for spots in my guild and they are all Fire. It will be nerfed.

Think about the mechanics of elemental. We now have worse AoE in exchange for far better target switching and ST burst. Taking Gorefiend for example, we go from the worst spec in the game to one of the best. Also, our EQ damage took a hit but people forget we can now pool maelstrom on a single target and dump 2 EQ instantly on any add pack. Adding on to that we have Gust of Wind/Wind Rush Totem which are HUGE. I'll take current Ele any day of the week.

[Gaucho-]

I would strongly hesitate to make such claims. Especially seeing how there is - in my opinion - a far greater skill discrepancy between an outstanding mage and an average one, than between an outstanding Ele and an average one, for example.

Why? He is correct. You cant DPS while moving, except you're a Mage. 2x Shimmer, 3x Ice Floes, Scorch, instant cast procs. From a pure playability point of view fire mage is an elemental on steroids. And well, just because you need a WeakAura for your resource bar or some flashy things around your character indicating Hot Streak doesnt create a *greater* skill discrepancy - Elemental *needs* such "UI fiddling" also. All mage specs have the same, if not a lower skill cap than Elemental. If you chose talents like Icefury, Elemental's rotation and awareness of your spec double anything. Its a big difference if you ES with 84 MS or 92 MS, but its a no-brainer to use Fire Blast after a crit, especially with guaranteed crits you get while in Combustion or after using Phoenix's Flame.

This game play also translates to frost and arcane - its nothing special. Maybe 6 years ago you were right, but certainly not for Legion's class design.

[Deleted]

is elemental AOE/cleave that bad?

I've seen finalboss TV video about elemental and he shows how many different builds we can do with the artifact and talents and the lightning build with stormkeeper synergy seems pretty crazy for AOE.

Single target is great, no doubt, anyone doubting that is clueless or just hasn't payed attention to actual gameplay,not just sims.

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I think everyone knows Miffy23 is like that dog from the comic where his whole house is burning down with him inside and hes just sitting there like everything is fine.

Playing Elemental on beta was the worst experience I've had in the game and quickly switch to enhance. I've been elemental since BC.

You are clearly overdramatizing things just like any whiner on all the WoW forums. I hear this kind of BS talk about every spec in the game, even from DKs and mages so please OP don't listen to this kind of doomsday misinformation and wait until raids are released before making pretentious claims about how broken a spec is.

[Gaucho-]

is elemental AOE/cleave that bad?

I've seen finalboss TV video about elemental and he shows how many different builds we can do with the artifact and talents and the lightning build with stormkeeper synergy seems pretty crazy for AOE.

Single target is great, no doubt, anyone doubting that is clueless or just hasn't payed attention to actual gameplay,not just sims.

ST in pre patch or in actual Legion content? Because in Legion, at 110 our ST sustained is mediocre - ST burst is only topped by fire mage, which is topped by Shadow during execute (sub 35%). And sorry, but if you watch FinalBoss or Preach or whatever other videos which werent made by actual people who play specs its an indicator that they're fishing for website/video clicks. Ever noticed how every YouTube channel or news channel does videos on every current topic? Thats because they want to generate a stronger presence on google searches.

If you want to have real information based on actual facts then visit the class discord server, Earthshrine.