Do you think fire mages will be nerfed?

[Alvito]

If they nerf RoP as suggested that hits all 3 specs not just fire. I think they will continue to roll back crit modifiers like they have already done. This will really suck for newer mages, but Blizzard rarely seems to care about rerolls and alts for tuning issues.

[mrgreenthump]

i just want another arcane buff so i can stop playing fire :/

Arcane would need to be buffed to demolock numbers to be even considered over Fire.

[Foleus]

The amount of delusion in this thread is ridiculous. Warriors, Demon hunters and Rogues were all nerfed. Fire Mages are right behind Shadow Priests right on top for every single fight, they do an insane amount of damage and when they get their 4/4 set bonus from Nighthold they will surpass Shadow Priests.

For anyone here who doesn't think that Fire Mages need and will get a nerf is extremely delusional and obviously plays a Fire Mage. Please consider the amount of classes that have been nerfed and don't think for a second you're not next. You deserve a very large nerf.

[SLSAMG]

The amount of delusion in this thread is ridiculous. Warriors, Demon hunters and Rogues were all nerfed. Fire Mages are right behind Shadow Priests right on top for every single fight, they do an insane amount of damage and when they get their 4/4 set bonus from Nighthold they will surpass Shadow Priests.

For anyone here who doesn't think that Fire Mages need and will get a nerf is extremely delusional and obviously plays a Fire Mage. Please consider the amount of classes that have been nerfed and don't think for a second you're not next. You deserve a very large nerf.

Yup, we're delusional and you're butthurt.

[Deleted]

Yup, we're delusional and you're butthurt.

aye, if anything, fire will get a nerf indirectly by buffing other classes up which is something i can live with if they are deserved.

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Arcane would need to be buffed to demolock numbers to be even considered over Fire.

arcane got buffed to demolock numbers then they would still suck hard. locks in general are still middle of the pack.

[Snackwiches]

They never nerf Mages. If you want security, this has always been the class.

[Deleted]

I quit balance druid because of how much haste is needed to feel like a good spec. I am not happy with this system.

Last time balance simed haste above int was weeks before legion launch with certain talents. Since legion launch haste has been the best secondary and nothing more, and even then its not far above any other secondaries.

[Bombkirby]

Fire mage isn't really the best at anything, its just competitive in all situations which makes it strong. Idk, that alone doesn't seem to warrant a nerf. IMO nobody needs nerfs currently. If they're gonna do anything just buff some underperformers, then we will see come Nighthold.

If they nerf it, that is what they'll hit. They'll give it one area where it sucks. A well designed class has areas where it flops and areas where its amazing. Anything that doesn't fit that description is due for buffs/nerfs.

[mrgreenthump]

Being analytical though, Fire may not even deserve a nerf in it's damage output(still have to see about scaling at 880+ levels), but in general outside of cleave a fights and Elerethe Fire ain't topping the meters, it's just always strong due to it's movement toolkit. On cleave fights though, ignite is so stupidly strong, that we automaticly get to the top just by tunneling the boss, which may need to change if people start demanding for a Fire nerf.

What they truly might touch though is Fire Mage movement. We can get Shimmer and Ice Floes at the same time, 2 huge movement talents, which really 0 downsides to them, when it comes to raiding. On top of that we got so many instant casts, that even on heavy movement fight we may not get any dps loss from moving.

If they nerf it, that is what they'll hit. They'll give it one area where it sucks. A well designed class has areas where it flops and areas where its amazing. Anything that doesn't fit that description is due for buffs/nerfs.

While you are right and it's where the spec truly shines at the moment.. Big mechanic changes rarely happen this fast. And Fire is so far ahead in everything compared to Arcane and Frost, that it would either need a huge nerf(which it may not even need if we take a look at logs)



Anyways TL;DR, Fire is ahead at the moment, because of superior toolkit, not because of potential dps.

[Woobels]

dont't tell me you guys are surprised, that many pieces in NH are missing crit.

It was obvious and well planned from blizzard. Many classes need a certain amount of crit to work. So what are they doing? they put loads of Crit on starter items with crit being superhigh roll (like rings that have 1200 crit and 400 haste). that way they bring classes like fire already early in an area where it feels smooth to play. but obviously they cant continue like that, cause you already get 60% crit with preraid gear. so guess what: they try to keep the possible crit at around that level by just removing crit from certain slots completely or just increasing the stat of the other secondary stat (old example ring from 1200crit+400haste to 1200crit+1000haste). future items will jsut have more mastery and versatility, just cause these stats dont have a soft/hardcap like haste and crit do. obviously due to that fact fire wont scale that good in the future, cause we will always stay on the same crit level from now on which results in only increasing our worse stats that dont scale that well. therefore mage wont need any special threating/nerfs.
actually good design from blizz. they got rid of the clunky playstyle at the beginning of an expansion with low crit and also got rid of the incredible scaling later on.

I would like to agree but this is giving Blizzard way too much credit.

[mrgreenthump]

I would like to agree but this is giving Blizzard way too much credit.

Also there are many many many good crit items in Nighthold, so it's only our set that is somewhat lackluster in stat distribution, but it has always been like that.

[jcdommo]

If they do feel fire is too strong, the easiest nerf would be to cut down rune of power. Some mages would even cheer the death of rune. Blizzard usually takes a more heavy handed approach though.

[Deleted]

If they do feel fire is too strong, the easiest nerf would be to cut down rune of power. Some mages would even cheer the death of rune. Blizzard usually takes a more heavy handed approach though.

No, if they wanted to nerf fire, they should nerf fire, not every mage spec as a consequence. Similarly just because some mages dislike Rune of Power is not justification for it being nerfed.

[lollified]

Will they nerf fire? That depends on the definition of OP from Blizzard's perspective.

My own definition of OP is any spec that has an answer for all of the following situations/problems:

Note: These are my personal opinions.



1. Movement intensive fights: Any spec in game should be able to handle movement. For a caster this should be in form of strong instant casts, ability to handle casting while moving, having spells to change your location instantly while for a melee this should be passive movement speed buffs along with abilities that allow you to jump distances. The said spec's DPS/HPS should not take a dramatically hit when a fight requires heavy movement. (Hello demo locks, also destro locks, also DK's)

2. Out of combat movement: As a content is outgeared, speed becomes an important factor. Normal/Heroic raid speed runs, low mythic+ dungeon speed runs arguably can be done by any class/spec combination, however some do it better. The said spec should be among the ones that handle in or out of combat movement while others just walk with 100% movement speed. (Hello DKs, Lock's without Burning Rush)

3. Fights that require burst AoE: The said spec should be able to handle burst AoE. The argument that whether burst AoE is an _important_ part of the game can go on forever, however speed runs require it, and important from your perspective or not, it is a part of the game and some classes handle it better while others can simply not (Hello so called OP shadow priests, demo warlocks)

4. Fights that require sustained AoE: The said spec should be able to do AoE damage on multiple targets and the output damage should be able to scale with the number of targets. Although most specsc an perform this in one way or other, there are some that simply can't. Multi DoT'ing manually is not a form of AoE as it's a GCD capped gameplay that does not scale in DPS as the number of targets increase (Hello shadow priests with no AoE spell (Mind Sear is extremely weak, does not count)) (Hello destro locks without Fire and Brimstone)

5. Fights that require sustained or burst cleaving of couple of targets: The said spec should be able to cleave 2-3 targets. Most specs can handle this if the fight goes long enough. Some specs excel at it only if fight is long (Hello sp, affliction) and others are balanced around it (Hello low single target dps Destro lock because you are balanced around Wreak Havoc). Also, the spec should be able to do this with relative ease, because why the hell not? Some spec's have passives or abilities that spread passively and others have abilities that do AoE damage in their single target rotation.

6. Fights that require burst single target damage: Again, the argument that whether burst is important or not can go on forever, however in any content you start to outgear, burst becomes more and more important.

7. Fights that require sustained single target damage: The spec should be able to do good single target damage. Although most bosses have spawning add mechanics that require people to cleave or AoE during the fight, if/when there's a single target fight, the spec should be able to prove competitive. There are some specs that excel at this with relying certain (broken, badly designed, disgusting) mechanics like Surrender to Madness and thus get labeled as overpowered, however it should also be mentioned that the certain spec does tank level dps pre execute phase. In short, the spec should be able to perform at an acceptable level in single target fights. (Hello affliction locks, frost dk's, pre execute sp's or any sp's without StM, destruction warlocks that are balanced around Wreak Havoc)





The spec should be able to perform above average in all of the above situations without gimmicky talent preferences or without constant talent swapping costs. If for example a destro warlock have to go Fire and Brimstone, Grimoire of Sacrifice, Wreak Havoc just to try to stay competitive in cleave and AoE, and thus gimp single target damage immensely, then for me this is a problem. Either the said warlock is in a raid environment and he'll go for ST or at most cleave talent setup, (which are actually two different setups in their own right) and others will clear trash for him, or he's in a mythic+ dungeon where he's kind of carrying his own weight in trash, however will rely on others to carry him during boss (Hello mythic + 10 or more (even more fun with Tyrannical)), or he will have to swap talents constantly when some other specs can take a single talent configuration and be more than OK at everything.



The spec also should be able to perform above average in all of the above situations without .... rerolling?

Why should any spec have to go afk while others handle for example bats or spiders in BRH or slimes in EoA? Why should certain specs not be able to compete in speed Mythics?

Outside of raid content, mythic+ dungeons is a very good way to play and gear up your class. You can either get raid ready with mythic+ dungeons or mythic+ can even be the end game for you.



During the mythic+ run there is a timer and chests have gear in them, which can roll warforged, titanforged. Which means, even if you outgear mythic+4 and your spec can do a 3 chest run with relatively ease, some drop can roll Titanforged and be an upgrade for you. So your spec should handle timers and speed.



You should be able to enjoy every bit of content, from normal/heroic/mythic raiding to low mythic+ runs or high mythic+ runs.





Is for example shadow priest OP? Not even close, can't handle speed kills, no aoe, no burst, useless outside of StM.

Is for example unholy DK OP? Not even close, low single target damage outside of cleave or burst (dps starts high drops immensely), no mobility, slow as fuk.

Is for example frost DK OP? rofl.

Is for example destro lock OP? Not even close, slow as fuk, movement hinders dps, requires constant talent swapping in order to perform below average at everything.

Is for example affliction lock OP? rofl. affliction lock can talent into Sow the Seeds talent to become half a real spec in game

Is for example WW monk OP? hell ye.

Is for example fire mage OP? hell ye. I paid 50 bucks to boost one. However it's hard to nerf Fire Mages without literally removing stuff from talent tree or spell book. Toolkit is too strong even if the numbers can go up and down from hotfix to hotfix.

Is for example MM hunter OP? hell ye.

Is for example outlaw rogue OP? grey area.



TLDR;

For me a spec is only OP if it allows you to enjoy every tiny bit of content in game. Class fantasy and game design heading away from homogenization should not cripple a spec and a spec should be able to handle and/or be good or acceptable at:

1. Movement heavy fights,

2. Out of combat movement,

3. Burst or sustained AoE,

4. Burst or sustained cleave,

5. Burst or sustained single target

situations and should not require you to constantly swap talents or else gimp yourself to oblivion.



As for fire mages, I don't think it is possible to nerf fire mages without removing random talents from talent tree or abilities/passives from spell book. Blizzard's definition of OP seems to be nerfing those who excel at something (StM) rather than nerfing those who are above acceptable at everything. Numbers can go up and down but in current iteration of the game, toolkit is everything and fire mage toolkit is very well 'balanced'.

[Woobels]

To above post: You can be extremely out of line in one thing you'd still be overpowered.

Just because Shadow is bad when it doesn't have S2M doesn't mean they're balanced, it means S2M needs to be nerfed their other shit buffed.

[Naiyano]

Is for example fire mage OP? hell ye. I paid 50 bucks to boost one. However it's hard to nerf Fire Mages without literally removing stuff from talent tree or spell book. Toolkit is too strong even if the numbers can go up and down from hotfix to hotfix.

How long did you play fire? I agree on a a few things you said and yes fire mage has a strong toolkit that allows it to be good in almost every situation that i can think of. But i disagree that the toolkit is too strong in general. What i do acknowledge is that fire mages are increbly mobile. It's hillarious that we never have to stop casting anything. Icy Flows, Blink, a ton of instant spells and so on. In my opinion fire mage is just fine in raids. But the playstyle of the class just fits perfectly for mythic+ and that's where we shine and all that counts for many players at the moment.

Keeping fire mage in its current state is easy for Blizzard. Just don't put crit on gear. And thats seems to be the way they are going for in the future. If it fails, just nerf critical mass.

I always wondered who would pay 50 bucks to boost a char. Now i know it

[lollified]

I always wondered who would pay 50 bucks to boost a char. Now i know it

Guess someone who wants to start enjoying legion sooner than later. The classes that I leveled and geared are always talking about what spells or abilities are missing from their toolkit and how they are hindered by not having the appropriate tools. I think I want to start reading about how to optimize my rotation, cooldowns, gear and whatnot instead of constant whining of badly designed classes as quickly as possible :P there goes 50 bucks

[Naiyano]

Guess someone who wants to start enjoying legion sooner than later. The classes that I leveled and geared are always talking about what spells or abilities are missing from their toolkit and how they are hindered by not having the appropriate tools. I think I want to start reading about how to optimize my rotation, cooldowns, gear and whatnot instead of constant whining of badly designed classes as quickly as possible :P there goes 50 bucks

In this case welcome to the mage community

[unbound]

I'm enjoying my mage at the moment. It feels satisfying to play with adequate reward/punishment for decisions.

I'd like to hear some of your thoughts on balance. It seems fire mages are a slight dps outlier and blizzard will attempt to bring them inline a bit. My guess is they will do this by nerfing RoP by 10% while buffing the other talents in that tier.

It's always hard to tell what goes on in Blizz's mind. There may be some minor nerfs to Fire Mages, but I doubt they'll go after them hard. Shadow Priests will probably get a big swing of the nerf bat. Then again, if Blizz doesn't want that much damage being put out currently, they may hit the top 4 or 5 specs to bring them in line.

If Blizz is doing their job, they should be taking a harder look at DKs (Frost is bottom of the barrel, but Unholy isn't a whole lot better), and I'm baffled with the whole Shaman issue. Frost Mages are solid PvP specs right now, but suck at PvE...this is potentially reasonable balance, but I would think they should give Frost a bit of a buff since they are rock bottom in PvE. Enhancement Shamans are solid PvP specs and top 3 in PvE, while Elemental Shamans suck at both...I have no idea what is going through Blizz's mind on that situation, but it certainly doesn't demonstrate quality thinking on their part.

[Deleted]

If movement and toolkit are what make fire mage so good, I wonder why Frost is so far behind the pack, while it has access to basically the same toolkit and movement (it also has shimmer and Ice floes, and a lot of instant casts)

Question is: does frost being shit warrant a fire nerf?
Maybe some tuning in some aspects might be, tbh.

Imo Frost, and to a lesser extent Arcane, need buffs if they want to be brought in range of the current fire spec.
For frost this is in anything but pure single target (this was brought into closer range in last balancing pass, butonly in this it is close by atm).
Start with buffing Blizzard and cleave and give it some more burst.

(this is speaking from a PvE point of view. I realise this has effects in PvP that need to be handled too)