Food for thought: Kara vs EN

[Rotted]

I like Kara as a 5 man, but it would be awesome to tune it for 10 man as well. They could totally to it too! Perhaps increase the difficulty and increase the ilvl rewards?

Thats what I thought,

Although some wouldn't need much of a overhaul, like the last one, still a good chance for that to knock off a load of players with that beam

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In no instance whatsoever did it take more than 9 pulls (nightbane) to do any boss in Kara, and most of the others besides the final boss were anything but 1 shots. Kara is cool, it's a fun side game to do for a few weeks. But it is in no way comparable mechanically to Emerald Nightmare Mythic.

Yea...... No....

As the first raid for TBC, it wasn't a walk in the park one shot fest. Guilds that level'd togeather / their first raid teams of people being made up in heroic gear wouldn't one shot it.

Midnights trash was hell, even with CC it was easy to be wooped,
Midnight was a nice introductory boss
That trash before moroes was hell.
Moroes was a cunt, that debuff on the wrong player could easily cause a wipe, CC breaking from stray aoe would cause a wipe
More trash hell
Maiden, easier than moroes, Id say nicely tuned for the raid, simple once you had a few attempts
Opera house trash was fine, just easy to fuck up with those lights
Opera house boss's for the most part they were fine, big bad wolf could cause issues
That brings us to nightbane, Fuck that, Fuck him, he was defo not a one shot, he was a night of attempts if not more, of needing a high dps and high heals.
Curator was a pain in the ass, and defo took a few attempts to understand it,
Trash after curator was a pain in the ass
That exploding trash, was a pain in the ass
The imp boss, easy enough, no issues
Aran...... Fuck me some people couldnt get that fight and when they did, so many fuck ups on interupts, moving out, moving in
Netherwing the next? fuck that most guilds I know who started in kara just bypassed that thing.
Chess event, we never struggled with it, was pretty much simple. But I did hear about guilds struggling.
The prince, difficult, but Id say easier than nightbane, we got the prince down before nightbane or netherwing.

Our guild was ranked server 21 before we had it to the point where we could walk in and one shot everything. Even then we had fuck ups on aran, prince, nightbane and netherwing some nights. The only time there wasn't an excuse not to be able to do it was when the nerf came in for the run up to wrath

[RyanEX]

Blanket statements made by rose-tinted glasses lol

Where in there did I say that BC > All. I made a simple statement. BC raids did indeed revolve around few, very punishing mechanics. The only boss in BC that you could label as complex was Kil'Jaeden.

[Sylvaeres]

Try doing Kara in fresh 70 gear with some heroic dungeon pieces, you'd have changed your tune quick. By all means it wasn't the hardest raid, but before over gearing it it wasn't a stomp fest. Especially as you stated Malchezar and Nightbane were very punishing bosses. Even a boss like Curator was very punishing if the group didn't know how to position the void zones.

We're discussing current content. We're not talking about a 10 year old introductory raid. The conversation is about EN mechanics vs Kara 5 man mechanics. You basically ignored the topic to try to prop up the prestige of a 10 man raid that was an absolute joke in TBC. It wasn't hard, don't kid yourself. I played during TBC, it wasn't hard then, damn sure isn't hard now. I'm not saying that it isn't quality content, quite the opposite, but it is in no way shape or form complex mechanically.

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Thats what I thought,

Although some wouldn't need much of a overhaul, like the last one, still a good chance for that to knock off a load of players with that beam

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Yea...... No....

As the first raid for TBC, it wasn't a walk in the park one shot fest. Guilds that level'd togeather / their first raid teams of people being made up in heroic gear wouldn't one shot it.

Midnights trash was hell, even with CC it was easy to be wooped,
Midnight was a nice introductory boss
That trash before moroes was hell.
Moroes was a cunt, that debuff on the wrong player could easily cause a wipe, CC breaking from stray aoe would cause a wipe
More trash hell
Maiden, easier than moroes, Id say nicely tuned for the raid, simple once you had a few attempts
Opera house trash was fine, just easy to fuck up with those lights
Opera house boss's for the most part they were fine, big bad wolf could cause issues
That brings us to nightbane, Fuck that, Fuck him, he was defo not a one shot, he was a night of attempts if not more, of needing a high dps and high heals.
Curator was a pain in the ass, and defo took a few attempts to understand it,
Trash after curator was a pain in the ass
That exploding trash, was a pain in the ass
The imp boss, easy enough, no issues
Aran...... Fuck me some people couldnt get that fight and when they did, so many fuck ups on interupts, moving out, moving in
Netherwing the next? fuck that most guilds I know who started in kara just bypassed that thing.
Chess event, we never struggled with it, was pretty much simple. But I did hear about guilds struggling.
The prince, difficult, but Id say easier than nightbane, we got the prince down before nightbane or netherwing.

Our guild was ranked server 21 before we had it to the point where we could walk in and one shot everything. Even then we had fuck ups on aran, prince, nightbane and netherwing some nights. The only time there wasn't an excuse not to be able to do it was when the nerf came in for the run up to wrath

Read above since my response would be similar

[Fappy]

I think EN works well as an intro raid, but the intro is going to last a bit too long before Nighthold comes out. Hopefully Kara and Trial can bridge the gap well enough.

Personally, I am still enjoying EN.

[xpose]

Kara is pretty easy but the fights are more engaging. EN is snore fest

[DakonBlackblade]

Karazhan is awesome, it realy does feel like a 5 man raid. EN on the other hand might be the second worst raid ever, only Dragon Soul is crapier. The bosses are uninspired, some have nice mechanics but most are just rather boring, the raid feels disjointed with all the portals and the setting is monotonic and dull.

[Arterus]

We're discussing current content. We're not talking about a 10 year old introductory raid. The conversation is about EN mechanics vs Kara 5 man mechanics. You basically ignored the topic to try to prop up the prestige of a 10 man raid that was an absolute joke in TBC. It wasn't hard, don't kid yourself. I played during TBC, it wasn't hard then, damn sure isn't hard now. I'm not saying that it isn't quality content, quite the opposite, but it is in no way shape or form complex mechanically.

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Read above since my response would be similar

It's difficult to tell what you're talking about. You posted right below other people comparing the old mechanics to newer ones. And I can't imagine you talking about wiping 9x in Kara 5 man with the current ilvls.

Maybe you should clarify who/what you are responding to. You did not only have me confused but another poster as well.

If we are referring to the current 5 man vs h en, the same applies. Go into Kara at 840 and tell me it's easy. H en is steamroll. Even in 855 Ivl most bosses were a 1 or 2 shot.

More complex doesn't equate to more difficult when you can still ignore half the mechanics.

[Sylvaeres]

It's difficult to tell what you're talking about. You posted right below other people comparing the old mechanics to newer ones. And I can't imagine you talking about wiping 9x in Kara 5 man with the current ilvls.

Maybe you should clarify who/what you are responding to. You did not only have me confused but another poster as well.

If we are referring to the current 5 man vs h en, the same applies. Go into Kara at 840 and tell me it's easy. H en is steamroll. Even in 855 Ivl most bosses were a 1 or 2 shot.

More complex doesn't equate to more difficult when you can still ignore half the mechanics.

I'll clarify. A) talking about 5 man mythic kara vs Mythic EN (not heroic). B) 9 wipes was on Nightbane, and 3 of them were simply resets. C) the conversation from the OP was discussing Mythic Kara vs En. I don't know how you guys derailed into reminiscing about the glory days, but if anyone is confused on the topic of the thread, it's certainly not me.

The funniest part of this is you're discussing Heroic EN, as if that's any sort of measure of a raid.

[Audio88]

Kara vs EN, seems like apples and oranges to me.

Progressing through 5 man content is fun cause you can spot your weakness' easily, and you can really see your progression as a group through the entire instance.

For EN and just raids in general it feels like a lot of that progression isn't tangible. Sometimes it feels like you're banging your head against a wall until it works. (Basically every H ursoc pug)

I don't really see that as a fault to EN as more of a fault to raid content.

[Sylvaeres]

So after a week kara has been out...and after last night and the murloc opera....i am finding the mechanics behind the fights in kara 1000% more interesting then anything in EN.

Mechanic wise...EN has been a bit of a flop. Is this me?

I'm case anyone forgot the topic of this thread, here you go

[caervek]

In no instance whatsoever did it take more than 9 pulls (nightbane) to do any boss in Kara, and most of the others besides the final boss were anything but 1 shots.

I don't mean to be rude here, but you have 881 ilevel, it's easy to laugh at the mechanics/etc when you outgear the instance.

Mechanic wise...EN has been a bit of a flop. Is this me?

No it's not you, Kara is designed TBC/WotLK style whereas EN is WoD/Legion style. Kara focuses on simple mechanics that will punish you greatly if you screw up whereas EN focuses on many convoluted mechanics that don't do much by themselves but together will screw you if you don't keep on top of them.

The end result is Kara being much more enjoyable than EN because it's more involving.

[Sylvaeres]

I don't mean to be rude here, but you have 881 ilevel, it's easy to laugh at the mechanics/etc when you outgear the instance.

2 corrections A) I have an 875 I level equipped and B) did it about 8 I lvls lower. I figured it was implied that I'm better geared than average when I'm speaking about Mythic EN. On another note, the content could be done at 845 and still be easy. The dungeon is in no way shape or form difficult at any gear level that can be acquired with a week of work

[Machismo]

Karazhan is a very impressive instance. While I don't necessarily like the theme for every fight, the dungeon is amazing. You have plenty of nostalgia, and it's combined to make for a very challenging dungeon. This could easily be the future of WoW, challenging 5-man content. We haven't seen difficult 5-man content since TBC. Mythic + is also enjoyable, but I would prefer they push to make boss fights more difficult, as opposed to just ramping up their damage. The affixes were a decent touch, but I don't like how they are locked in by the week.

I have no problem complaining when Blizzard fucks up, but they nailed it with Karazhan.

[Arterus]

I'll clarify. A) talking about 5 man mythic kara vs Mythic EN (not heroic). B) 9 wipes was on Nightbane, and 3 of them were simply resets. C) the conversation from the OP was discussing Mythic Kara vs En. I don't know how you guys derailed into reminiscing about the glory days, but if anyone is confused on the topic of the thread, it's certainly not me.

The funniest part of this is you're discussing Heroic EN, as if that's any sort of measure of a raid.

I think the funny part is that you're calling En easy when you can't clear mythic En with an 881 ilvl. Clearing content is always easy when you overgear it.

If you were following the thread instead of just posting your opinion to what I assume was the op, then you would understand we were discussing the difference of older wow mechanics vs modern ones. And we went off on a tangent talking about how difficult the raid was.

[Spotnick]

I like Kara as a 5 man, but it would be awesome to tune it for 10 man as well.

Dungeons should flex from 5 to 10, except Mythic+

[A Chozo]

Smaller group, difficult content, lack of a goddamn imperial timer makes Return to Karazhan a really enjoyable experience.

[Deleted]

EN is very very wasy on HC difficulty, but I think you can only rate how good the fights and the dungeon is, when you did it on Mythic. The Rest is just downtuned staff with less Encounter abailities etc. Of course top guilds would say EN is easy on mythic, but in these guilds all players are very good players. Progressing through mythic with an average guild and average players that may have a veteran past and may have not, but are working full time and don't have much time to go M+ Dungeons, just having enough time to farm pots/bufffood and flasks and be there the 2 raiddays the guild has.... Is another story. For these guilds like mine, progressing through mythic EN is quite challenging.

[Banard]

No it's not you, Kara is designed TBC/WotLK style whereas EN is WoD/Legion style. Kara focuses on simple mechanics that will punish you greatly if you screw up whereas EN focuses on many convoluted mechanics that don't do much by themselves but together will screw you if you don't keep on top of them.

The end result is Kara being much more enjoyable than EN because it's more involving.

maybe this is it...i also think it might be the layout...well at least the bottom portion...need to do it another time to get the top stuck in my head. The bottom was not linear.

I think this is what WoW has been missing...non-linear dungeons. Maybe that is a niche blizzard needs to add...for the old "10 man crowd". Complex dungeons for 5 man groups that will take hours because of the layout.

I wonder is there a demand for that...i know i would enjoy it..something else to do end game outside the normal raid time.

I would also like them to start adding profession nodes in dungeons and keep adding chests. That is the only thing was missing in kara was random chest spawns.

[Faenskap]

So Kara bosses aren't complicated mechanics wise, but punishing if you screw up? If so, that's interesting

Because I just can't do bosses with a fuckload of mechanics, it's too much for me to keep track of. Rather 2 punishing mechanics than 10 easier ones. My opinion of course

[cFortyfive]

Mechanic wise...EN has been a bit of a flop. Is this me?

No en was a terrible raid.