Why the inferiority complex about Mage?

[Gaidax]

Fire isn't spectacular on singletarget though. We have a nice burst but for sustained we're pretty average. I'd argue that one of the key reasons for why mages have fared as well as they have is that just about every mage has been playing fire which has given a much wider playerbase and thus many more skilled players in one spec compared to warlock where people have been running all 3 specs (if at all before the buffs).

Since Aff locks actually outrank mages in EN mythic performance now while being significantly less squishy and having superior utility I'd say you're right in saying your class can compete.

See that's the thing - you think Fire isn't spectacular on singletarget, why don't you for example look at such as Affliction on Nythendra and see what a trade off Ion keeps touting about means.

Point is Fire gets to dodge this tradeoff and your worst case, being single target, is not even bad in comparison to others who truly make the trade off devs keep touting about. The problem with that that many others do have to deal with that trade off, because it seems Blizzard is content at that as part of their de-homogenization crusade and it's pretty unfair when you have omnipotent specs like fire who seem to be exempt from that new trade-offs fad.

If Fire, for example, would truly be shit in ST, people would not bat an eyelash, but reality is - it's not and it simply does not have pitfalls on the magnitude of, for example, Affliction ST, that's why people are upset about Fire.

I mean, can you tell me what Fire is actually weak at, like really weak bottom tier?

[Deleted]

See that's the thing - you think Fire isn't spectacular on singletarget, why don't you for example look at such as Affliction on Nythendra and see what a trade off Ion keeps touting about means.

Point is Fire gets to dodge this tradeoff and your worst case, being single target, is not even bad in comparison to others who truly make the trade off devs keep touting about. The problem with that that many others do have to deal with that trade off, because it seems Blizzard is content at that as part of their de-homogenization crusade and it's pretty unfair when you have omnipotent specs like fire who seem to be exempt from that new trade-offs fad.

If Fire, for example, would truly be shit in ST, people would not bat an eyelash, but reality is - it's not and it simply does not have pitfalls on the magnitude of, for example, Affliction ST, that's why people are upset about Fire.

I mean, can you tell me what Fire is actually weak at, like really weak bottom tier?

Targetswap fights where our ignite gets eaten to shit. Like Odyn? I'll elaborate a bit more when I'm back home.

[Deleted]

See that's the thing - you think Fire isn't spectacular on singletarget, why don't you for example look at such as Affliction on Nythendra and see what a trade off Ion keeps touting about means.

Point is Fire gets to dodge this tradeoff and your worst case, being single target, is not even bad in comparison to others who truly make the trade off devs keep touting about. The problem with that that many others do have to deal with that trade off, because it seems Blizzard is content at that as part of their de-homogenization crusade and it's pretty unfair when you have omnipotent specs like fire who seem to be exempt from that new trade-offs fad.

If Fire, for example, would truly be shit in ST, people would not bat an eyelash, but reality is - it's not and it simply does not have pitfalls on the magnitude of, for example, Affliction ST, that's why people are upset about Fire.

I mean, can you tell me what Fire is actually weak at, like really weak bottom tier?

I copy and paste from other post:

PVE
Trial of valor:

Odyn: 0 mages on top 100. Even with "imbalanced bracers".
Guarm(ST): 2 mages on top 100. Pos 30 & 46.
Helya (Oh yes a boss with HIGH AOE). 19 mages on top 100. Considering there are like +20 adds in P2 and a lot of cleave all the fight, 19/100 is nearly acceptable cause is the perfect boss for a fire mage/hunter/pshadow. 41 Hunters & 26 pshadow in TOP 100.

Emerald Nightmare: Same like trial of valor. Single target low, cleave dmg medium.

So yes, mage is weak atm, even with bracers.

[aesthir]

See that's the thing - you think Fire isn't spectacular on singletarget, why don't you for example look at such as Affliction on Nythendra and see what a trade off Ion keeps touting about means.

Point is Fire gets to dodge this tradeoff and your worst case, being single target, is not even bad in comparison to others who truly make the trade off devs keep touting about. The problem with that that many others do have to deal with that trade off, because it seems Blizzard is content at that as part of their de-homogenization crusade and it's pretty unfair when you have omnipotent specs like fire who seem to be exempt from that new trade-offs fad.

If Fire, for example, would truly be shit in ST, people would not bat an eyelash, but reality is - it's not and it simply does not have pitfalls on the magnitude of, for example, Affliction ST, that's why people are upset about Fire.

I mean, can you tell me what Fire is actually weak at, like really weak bottom tier?

I agree with you that fire is less impacted by any kind of trade-off, but I am getting seriously pissed about ppl whining about fire mages being OP (especially 99% of the warlock forum which is full of clueless ppl saying their class is the worst ever). Also, PERSONALLY, i would prefer to be a class that can top EVERY fight if you are willing to switch specs over a class thats mediocre and doesn't to bad but not great on every fight.

Lets look at 75th percentile warcraftlogs for mythic bosses
Nythendra: Demo>fire>frost
Ilgynoth: affliction>destruction>arcane
Elerethe: Fire>affliction>arcane
Ursoc: Demo>fire>arcane
Dragons: Affliction>fire>destro
Cenarius: Alffiction>demo>destruction (hello mages?)
Xavius: Fire>affliction>destruction

TOV heroic:
Odyn: Destruction>Affl>demo (hello mages??)
Guarm: Demo>Frost>fire
Helya: Arcane>Fire>Affl

Seems warlocks are WAY better off tbh...

Lets look at 90th percentile for EN mythic
Nythendra: Demo>fire>arcane
Ilgynoth: affliction>arcane>destruction
Elerethe: Fire>affliction>arcane
Ursoc: Demo>fire>arcane
Dragons: Affliction (TOP OF ALL)>fire>destro
Cenarius: Affliction>demo>destruction (hello mages again?)
Xavius: Frost>fire>affliction

TOV heroic 90th:
Odyn: Destruction>Affl>demo (hello mages?)
Guarm: Demo>Fire>arcane
Helya: Arcane>Affliction>fire


I would gladly have some 'weaknesses' and beat warlocks on nearly every fight if I played two specs. The whole advantage of being a pure dps class is so you can switch specs to shore up weaknesses of one spec over the other. Also, it's hard to argue fire has no weaknesses when it is below ALL warlock specs on 3 fights...

Also, when looking at overall performance over all fights its:

Afflic>fire>arcane~demo for mythic EN
Afflic>arcane>destruction~fire for ToV heroic


Taking into account that there are more parses available for fire mages than all 3 warlock specs combined, this paints a very bleak picture.
Due to warlock balancing being all over the place compared to mage balancing, its also reasonable to expect mages to have better spec specific legendaries than warlocks.

Edit: I'm not saying mages are in a bad state compared to all classes, I think we are in a very good state actually. But, it is clearly hilariously stupid to call mages OP...
It is also absolutely ridiculous that (atleast from my personal experience) there are more people whining about mages being OP than freaking shadow priests

[Deleted]

*text removedto avoid spam*

This post covers it all really.

[Arcrin]

I agree with you that fire is less impacted by any kind of trade-off, but I am getting seriously pissed about ppl whining about fire mages being OP (especially 99% of the warlock forum which is full of clueless ppl saying their class is the worst ever). Also, PERSONALLY, i would prefer to be a class that can top EVERY fight if you are willing to switch specs over a class thats mediocre and doesn't to bad but not great on every fight.

Lets look at 75th percentile warcraftlogs for mythic bosses
Nythendra: Demo>fire>frost
Ilgynoth: affliction>destruction>arcane
Elerethe: Fire>affliction>arcane
Ursoc: Demo>fire>arcane
Dragons: Affliction>fire>destro
Cenarius: Alffiction>demo>destruction (hello mages?)
Xavius: Fire>affliction>destruction

TOV heroic:
Odyn: Destruction>Affl>demo (hello mages??)
Guarm: Demo>Frost>fire
Helya: Arcane>Fire>Affl

Seems warlocks are WAY better off tbh...

Lets look at 90th percentile for EN mythic
Nythendra: Demo>fire>arcane
Ilgynoth: affliction>arcane>destruction
Elerethe: Fire>affliction>arcane
Ursoc: Demo>fire>arcane
Dragons: Affliction (TOP OF ALL)>fire>destro
Cenarius: Affliction>demo>destruction (hello mages again?)
Xavius: Frost>fire>affliction

TOV heroic 90th:
Odyn: Destruction>Affl>demo (hello mages?)
Guarm: Demo>Fire>arcane
Helya: Arcane>Affliction>fire


I would gladly have some 'weaknesses' and beat warlocks on nearly every fight if I played two specs. The whole advantage of being a pure dps class is so you can switch specs to shore up weaknesses of one spec over the other. Also, it's hard to argue fire has no weaknesses when it is below ALL warlock specs on 3 fights...

Also, when looking at overall performance over all fights its:

Afflic>fire>arcane~demo for mythic EN
Afflic>arcane>destruction~fire for ToV heroic


Taking into account that there are more parses available for fire mages than all 3 warlock specs combined, this paints a very bleak picture.
Due to warlock balancing being all over the place compared to mage balancing, its also reasonable to expect mages to have better spec specific legendaries than warlocks.

Edit: I'm not saying mages are in a bad state compared to all classes, I think we are in a very good state actually. But, it is clearly hilariously stupid to call mages OP...
It is also absolutely ridiculous that (atleast from my personal experience) there are more people whining about mages being OP than freaking shadow priests

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10/

just saying. 3000ish parses for afflock with 66.000 parses for fire mage id say if it had to even out fire mage would be 3rd below ALL warlock specs.

also having il gynoth mythic rankings in your mentions LUL

[Deleted]

Ghostcrawler tweeted most of the deva play mage too causing balance arguments.

[Deleted]

I agree with you that fire is less impacted by any kind of trade-off, but I am getting seriously pissed about ppl whining about fire mages being OP (especially 99% of the warlock forum which is full of clueless ppl saying their class is the worst ever). Also, PERSONALLY, i would prefer to be a class that can top EVERY fight if you are willing to switch specs over a class thats mediocre and doesn't to bad but not great on every fight.

Lets look at 75th percentile warcraftlogs for mythic bosses
Nythendra: Demo>fire>frost
Ilgynoth: affliction>destruction>arcane
Elerethe: Fire>affliction>arcane
Ursoc: Demo>fire>arcane
Dragons: Affliction>fire>destro
Cenarius: Alffiction>demo>destruction (hello mages?)
Xavius: Fire>affliction>destruction

TOV heroic:
Odyn: Destruction>Affl>demo (hello mages??)
Guarm: Demo>Frost>fire
Helya: Arcane>Fire>Affl

Seems warlocks are WAY better off tbh...

Lets look at 90th percentile for EN mythic
Nythendra: Demo>fire>arcane
Ilgynoth: affliction>arcane>destruction
Elerethe: Fire>affliction>arcane
Ursoc: Demo>fire>arcane
Dragons: Affliction (TOP OF ALL)>fire>destro
Cenarius: Affliction>demo>destruction (hello mages again?)
Xavius: Frost>fire>affliction

TOV heroic 90th:
Odyn: Destruction>Affl>demo (hello mages?)
Guarm: Demo>Fire>arcane
Helya: Arcane>Affliction>fire


I would gladly have some 'weaknesses' and beat warlocks on nearly every fight if I played two specs. The whole advantage of being a pure dps class is so you can switch specs to shore up weaknesses of one spec over the other. Also, it's hard to argue fire has no weaknesses when it is below ALL warlock specs on 3 fights...

Also, when looking at overall performance over all fights its:

Afflic>fire>arcane~demo for mythic EN
Afflic>arcane>destruction~fire for ToV heroic


Taking into account that there are more parses available for fire mages than all 3 warlock specs combined, this paints a very bleak picture.
Due to warlock balancing being all over the place compared to mage balancing, its also reasonable to expect mages to have better spec specific legendaries than warlocks.

Edit: I'm not saying mages are in a bad state compared to all classes, I think we are in a very good state actually. But, it is clearly hilariously stupid to call mages OP...
It is also absolutely ridiculous that (atleast from my personal experience) there are more people whining about mages being OP than freaking shadow priests

first of all, afflictions has a ridiculous amount of parses so you cant really rank it properly..on some bosses its even below 100 last i checked. Second.. who the fuck runs 2-3 different specs right now, 99% of the wow population probably haven't got the time to lvl another artifact spec or grab a new set of gear. If this would have been the case in wod i would say that warlock was doing good but in this expansion when you are kinda stuck with 1 spec i dont agree with this at all.

[Deleted]

first of all, afflictions has a ridiculous amount of parses so you cant really rank it properly..on some bosses its even below 100 last i checked. Second.. who the fuck runs 2-3 different specs right now, 99% of the wow population probably haven't got the time to lvl another artifact spec or grab a new set of gear. If this would have been the case in wod i would say that warlock was doing good but in this expansion when you are kinda stuck with 1 spec i dont agree with this at all.

For the first few weeks I would've agreed with the point about multiple specs. At this point when people are pushing AK14 it's not really a viable excuse anymore. YOu can very easily get your artifact up to 3 golden traits which will make it competitive in raids.

[mrgreenthump]

who the fuck runs 2-3 different specs right now

Tanks/Healers and those multi DPS spec classes who care about doing the best they can.

I do it due to Frost being better on ST. Granted Fire and Frost can use much of the same gear.

[Deleted]

Tanks/Healers and those multi DPS spec classes who care about doing the best they can.

I do it due to Frost being better on ST. Granted Fire and Frost can use much of the same gear.

aye, ive been lvling up my frost spec as well, currently got 27 points in fire and 24 points in frost, so you dont really have an excuse not to lvl up another spec.

[aesthir]

first of all, afflictions has a ridiculous amount of parses so you cant really rank it properly..on some bosses its even below 100 last i checked. Second.. who the fuck runs 2-3 different specs right now, 99% of the wow population probably haven't got the time to lvl another artifact spec or grab a new set of gear. If this would have been the case in wod i would say that warlock was doing good but in this expansion when you are kinda stuck with 1 spec i dont agree with this at all.

That's exactly my point, if there were more people playing affliction (and warlock in general) the discrepancies would be even more in favour of warlock over mage...

[Doffen]

Everytime we link the logs etc the warlocks comes with another excuse etc. They can't handle the truth.

Stop whining already. As I mention in another post, SICK AND TIRED of the warlock whine. Warlocks are fine, mages are fine. Lets all go to the priestforum and bash the shadow priests!

[Notdev]

They're #1 for AoE. They're top tier range DPS for single target. They're top tier range DPS for cleave. They have the best mobility of all range DPS. They can cheese mechanics with ice block.

First true single target boss this tier: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=1962

Hunter (and Shaman, which are very underrepresented, under tuned, and pretty much broken bad) seems to be the only ranged class that is truly behind mage.

Do you consider balance druid "top tier ranged DPS for single target" as well?

Weak on target switching fights as well. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=1958

The only commonly used spec Fire is above right now is MM hunter.

The only reason people still think Fire is OP is because of M Xavius. On the hardest fight of the expansion so far (M Cenarius) they are pretty bottom barrel level DPS.

Average single target
Bad target switching.
Bad at non-stacked multi dotting.
Above average cleave.
Great AoE

[Deleted]

ASide form representation in statistics causing discrepancies making not just arcane and frost look work it can also be the case for other classes.

Another factor is mages, especially fire seem to have one of the weakest raid utility (the way you deal dmg isn't categorized in it).
Maybe the iceblock can make up for other things it lacks doesnt feel like enough but it's also hard now to compare everything.

[Ellsian]

First true single target boss this tier: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=1962

Hunter (and Shaman, which are very underrepresented, under tuned, and pretty much broken bad) seems to be the only ranged class that is truly behind mage.

Do you consider balance druid "top tier ranged DPS for single target" as well?

Weak on target switching fights as well. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ty=4&boss=1958

The only commonly used spec Fire is above right now is MM hunter.

The only reason people still think Fire is OP is because of M Xavius. On the hardest fight of the expansion so far (M Cenarius) they are pretty bottom barrel level DPS.

Average single target
Bad target switching.
Bad at non-stacked multi dotting.
Above average cleave.
Great AoE

This, fire mages are pretty bad, only a little bit better than where hunters and ele shams are in single target :/ The pyro nerf was unecessary, and now the bracers will be nerfed anyways. So fire mage averages on single target will fall even further after the pyro bracer nerf. For "pure" classes, hunters and mages are doing rather mediocre in raids.

Want OP classes to go to? Go Rogues for sure, or Enh Shaman. S.priest if you like the gimmick. Not mage tho, lol

[Woobels]

Everyone here is working of the assumption they don't change anything else, we might get buffed, who knows.

[stevenho]

Why should we assume fire will magically get buffed if all they did from launch are nerfs?
Sad to see the spec go from top5 to bottom5 in 8 weeks.

[Waffen]

I don't get why we have to be the best at everything. The majority of us aren't in Mythic Progression Guilds. Why even care about DPS at that point? You're Normal/Heroic EN/ToV Guilds are going to take you regardless of your DPS. Hell, I bet the majority of the posters in this thread aren't getting anywhere near the top capability/tier that the sponsored Mythic Progression guys are getting. Is it really that hard to just play what you like/enjoy?

[Zenny]

I don't get why we have to be the best at everything. The majority of us aren't in Mythic Progression Guilds. Why even care about DPS at that point? You're Normal/Heroic EN/ToV Guilds are going to take you regardless of your DPS. Hell, I bet the majority of the posters in this thread aren't getting anywhere near the top capability/tier that the sponsored Mythic Progression guys are getting. Is it really that hard to just play what you like/enjoy?

Even in HC/Normal it's not fun having your class/spec suck. Being 20% behind another raid player due to no fault of your own is not a great feeling, no matter what your progression is.