AMD Zen processors...Are you interested?

[Fascinate]

Welp the 4000 kit i bought i could only get "stable" at 2933. I say "stable" because while i never crashed i would keep getting whea errors no matter what i did. I upped SOC voltage, ram voltage, cpu core voltage and kept getting errors. Sending it back and just sticking with my el cheapo ram til either bios gets fixed, or i go back to intel lol. (ram i have is on most z270 boards QVL list)

Whats more disappointing is my FPS were identical with 2933 cas 14 ram as 2400 cas 15, i only tested wow overwatch and swtor, but the numbers didnt change one bit.

[Deleted]

AdoredTV is calling out on bad benchmarking practices. Turns out, the FX-8350 does beat out the 2500K in a lot of benchmarks. Which is odd, considering this CPU was considered a huge failure. This has changed from 2012 to today, which the 8350 is now doing better. Also pointing out how badly optmized Star Craft is, and why are people using this benchmark today at all?

Because people are still playing it I suppose - similar to WoW. IMHO that's why they are still valid benchmark programs and I'd argue even more important than adding the 10th of the latest AAA game:

Since the latter tend to be optimized for multiple cores, they are doing well on most current CPUs and a lot of people don't really care (or shouldn't care) if they get 120 or 136 fps there.

However if you also play those game that are not utilizing multiple cores, this is where you're most concerned about the performance, because it's already low to begin with.
If your rig is already struggling to keep up 35 fps, you surely don't want to lose another 5 fps by "upgrading".

That's why I think those games should still be part of benchmarking - for extra credits give them their own category, like "ecncryption" or "streaming".

[Gray_Matter]

Just saw this article on some changes to Ashes of the Singularity to better support Ryzen.

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Proces...ormance-Update

These are substantial performance improvements with the new engine code! At both 2400 MHz and 3200 MHz memory speeds, and at both High and Extreme presets in the game (all running in DX12 for what that’s worth), the gaming performance on the GPU-centric is improved. At the High preset (which is the setting that AMD used in its performance data for the press release), we see a 31% jump in performance when running at the higher memory speed and a 22% improvement with the lower speed memory. Even when running at the more GPU-bottlenecked state of the Extreme preset, that performance improvement for the Ryzen processors with the latest Ashes patch is 17-20%!

If I am not mistaken, that puts it above the 7700K in Ashes. This is really important because it shows how games have been tuned for the Intel architecture over time. AMD really need to invest in other games (WOW, I am looking at you) to drive the performance on that side.

[Vash The Stampede]

Because people are still playing it I suppose - similar to WoW. IMHO that's why they are still valid benchmark programs and I'd argue even more important than adding the 10th of the latest AAA game:

WoW is constantly updated, while Star Craft is not. Though, this link shows that Star Craft is nearly dead.

http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=0

This maybe not be a single vs multiple core issue, but an optimization issue from how the games were made. The very same issue that effects RyZen.

[Denpepe]

WoW is constantly updated, while Star Craft is not. Though, this link shows that Star Craft is nearly dead.

http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=0

This maybe not be a single vs multiple core issue, but an optimization issue from how the games were made. The very same issue that effects RyZen.

Starcraft is getting a patch next week orso to make it run better on modern hardware/OS'es

[Vash The Stampede]

Starcraft is getting a patch next week orso to make it run better on modern hardware/OS'es

The point is that maybe benchmarks should be better looked at. It's nice that SC2 is getting a patch, but that doesn't change that there are some games that are either terribly optimized, or that reviewers are using them to make a winner. Using a game like SC2 to show how fast CPU's are, is really dumb. Blizzard games are known to be horribly optimized. They don't scale well with better hardware.

You see this problem today with RyZen. Where in most games RyZen is fine in games, but there are a handful of badly optimized games that people will point out. And for whatever reason, reviewers will use those games despite their age and lack of optimization.

[Fascinate]

I really dont know what to say, today i put the 1060 in my old rig just to do some tests. In overwatch the max fps is very similar, but minimums are absolutely higher on my ryzen rig. I testing 10 mins of training ground on each machine, 2500k rig dipped down into the 120's a lot more often and even saw one or two in the 110's. On ryzen rig lowest i saw was in 130's. WoW is same story as before the 2500k absolutely has higher minimums, simply makes no god damned sense lol.

[Remilia]

I really dont know what to say, today i put the 1060 in my old rig just to do some tests. In overwatch the max fps is very similar, but minimums are absolutely higher on my ryzen rig. I testing 10 mins of training ground on each machine, 2500k rig dipped down into the 120's a lot more often and even saw one or two in the 110's. On ryzen rig lowest i saw was in 130's. WoW is same story as before the 2500k absolutely has higher minimums, simply makes no god damned sense lol.

It makes sense. It's called Blizzard (where everything doesn't make sense). >.>

[mrgreenthump]

I really dont know what to say, today i put the 1060 in my old rig just to do some tests. In overwatch the max fps is very similar, but minimums are absolutely higher on my ryzen rig. I testing 10 mins of training ground on each machine, 2500k rig dipped down into the 120's a lot more often and even saw one or two in the 110's. On ryzen rig lowest i saw was in 130's. WoW is same story as before the 2500k absolutely has higher minimums, simply makes no god damned sense lol.

Makes absolute sense. Ryzen 7 should have higher minimums in relative to it's maximum than any 4c/4t if the application uses more than 4 threads. Now WoW can use more than 4 threads, but it requires some work.

Optimization will make a huge impact though and while WoW might not get it, AotS got it's patch and the Ryzen performance went up by a huge margin. Actually matching 6900k now.

[Fascinate]

Makes absolute sense. Ryzen 7 should have higher minimums in relative to it's maximum than any 4c/4t if the application uses more than 4 threads. Now WoW can use more than 4 threads, but it requires some work.

Optimization will make a huge impact though and while WoW might not get it, AotS got it's patch and the Ryzen performance went up by a huge margin. Actually matching 6900k now.

Not sure you read it right, in OW the ryzen has higher mins but WoW the 2500k does by a larger margin. This makes no sense because ryzen is a faster processor than my 2500k, there is something with the WoW engine and ryzen that simply cant communicate with each other properly.

In any program i run on my PC my 3.8ghz ryzen is faster than my 4.2ghz 2500k. This includes single threaded benchmarks.

[Lathais]

It makes sense. It's called Blizzard (where everything doesn't make sense). >.>

Well, aside from that, it makes sense that Overwatch is a newer game. Overwatch is a much newer game with it's own custom built proprietary engine. Probably makes better use of hardware than the old WC3 Engine modified to work for WoW and then further modified and changed over the years.

[Deleted]

Well, aside from that, it makes sense that Overwatch is a newer game. Overwatch is a much newer game with it's own custom built proprietary engine. Probably makes better use of hardware than the old WC3 Engine modified to work for WoW and then further modified and changed over the years.

To be honest, what doesn't make sense is the colossal income WoW generates alone, might as well be its own company outright, that blizzard still hasn't ported the game over to a modern engine, they literally have the money to bring together a team to bring the engine up for high end optimisation, whats more, they might as well use Vulcan, they have the game on a Mac afterall, they can even leverage more users in third world countries by Linux users.

[Lathais]

To be honest, what doesn't make sense is the colossal income WoW generates alone, might as well be its own company outright, that blizzard still hasn't ported the game over to a modern engine, they literally have the money to bring together a team to bring the engine up for high end optimisation, whats more, they might as well use Vulcan, they have the game on a Mac afterall, they can even leverage more users in third world countries by Linux users.

Yeah, you would think, but why spend money on it if you are not 100% positive it's going to create a proportional increase in income. I don't think it really would. Eventually, at some point they will probably decide to "reset" and just make a WoW2 with it's own new engine. Would make more sense I think, instead of doing an expansion, just release a whole a new game and then stop updating the old one. That way it's a fresh start and they don't have to port all the old content to the new engine.

[Artorius]

Eh, Linux market share in the desktop isn't exactly that much different in 3rd world countries. In fact I'd say countries with a high number of computer scientists and computer/electrical engineers probably has more Linux users for this fact alone. And even then the current OpenGL (yes it has a GL path) or D3D9 implementations of WoW run just fine on wine. They should indeed just go with Vulkan the next time they update their engine, but not really because of this. Blizzard is even a member of the Khronos group.

It would have probably already happened If Apple had adopted Vulkan instead of porting Metal over to OSX from iOS, but well whatever. Still a nice multi-platform API that makes the lives of customers better because it gives choice. Having better native Linux support is great even if they never release an actual client, wine can do its tricks.

[Remilia]

Too many things break when you want to port something so old. I imagine there's a lot of old code where it's pretty much, don't touch please, we don't know what'll break.

[Artorius]

Considering most of the original writers aren't even working on blizzard anymore, and that their codebase is probably huge... Yeah.

[Gray_Matter]

To be honest, what doesn't make sense is the colossal income WoW generates alone, might as well be its own company outright, that blizzard still hasn't ported the game over to a modern engine, they literally have the money to bring together a team to bring the engine up for high end optimisation, whats more, they might as well use Vulcan, they have the game on a Mac afterall, they can even leverage more users in third world countries by Linux users.

Rewriting is fraught with problems.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/...ver-do-part-i/

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure you read it right, in OW the ryzen has higher mins but WoW the 2500k does by a larger margin. This makes no sense because ryzen is a faster processor than my 2500k, there is something with the WoW engine and ryzen that simply cant communicate with each other properly.

In any program i run on my PC my 3.8ghz ryzen is faster than my 4.2ghz 2500k. This includes single threaded benchmarks.

It makes perfect sense, although not to the extreme that you are seeing. All of our multi-threaded vector code is optimized for Intel. We will need to take a look and change things for Ryzen.

What's really strange to me is that you saw no benefit in faster memory where the one benchmark I saw (at 720p) had around a 15% speedup from the faster memory.

https://i.imgur.com/FVp9Ve1.png

[Fascinate]

Its pretty hard to benchmark wow cause of all the variables, but no there was no perceptible change in performance from 2400 cas 15 to 2933 cas 14 ram. In overwatch i also was getting the exact same FPS.

And when you say "all of our" "we will need", do you work for blizz?

Its just so crazy i am actually debating going back to intel for this old ass poorly coded game lol.

[Gray_Matter]

Its pretty hard to benchmark wow cause of all the variables, but no there was no perceptible change in performance from 2400 cas 15 to 2933 cas 14 ram. In overwatch i also was getting the exact same FPS.

And when you say "all of our" "we will need", do you work for blizz?

Its just so crazy i am actually debating going back to intel for this old ass poorly coded game lol.

I work for a company that builds high performance analysis software. Some of our calculations take up to an hour. Anything we can do to speed things up makes a difference. Just recently I modified one portion that was taking 11 minutes to what it now takes which is 23 seconds. That takes a lot of fine tuning, some architectural changes and a lot of tweaking of block sizes and threading. We use the Intel compiler for some optimizations and you can bet that they don't optimize for AMD processors

The guy doing the WOW timing said that he did a specific flight path.

[Fascinate]

I work for a company that builds high performance analysis software. Some of our calculations take up to an hour. Anything we can do to speed things up makes a difference. Just recently I modified one portion that was taking 11 minutes to what it now takes which is 23 seconds. That takes a lot of fine tuning, some architectural changes and a lot of tweaking of block sizes and threading. We use the Intel compiler for some optimizations and you can bet that they don't optimize for AMD processors

The guy doing the WOW timing said that he did a specific flight path.

Thats completely possible he saw gains on flight path to flight path with memory speed bumps, but it wasnt a noticeable gain for me. It is still mind boggling how much better of an experience a CPU from 6 years ago gives than the new AMD stuff.

I kid you not, you could buy an i5 3470 from ebay for 50 bucks and have a better WoW experience than a 500 dollar 1800x. If you put these two systems in a blind test with WoW veterans, they would pick the intel machine every time.

Again not shitting on ryzen here, just hope there is something the devs can do to make some optimizations for the new AMD stuff. I mean, once the R5's and R3's come out i imagine they will sell fairly well, wouldnt it be just a matter of time then?