[Balance] Druids on MMO - Nagura from Serenity wrote PTR Feedback Please join!

[Deleted]

The reason this thread has been created is to bring all Balance druids attention to this thread

EU : https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614632256

US : https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752506278#1


This is our chance for blizzard to listen, which is why i'm typing here, I'm asking all of you who are interested in changes of balance druids, take part in this, agree or disagree, type your feedback, keep the threads Hot, and blizzard can't ignore it.


I'm sure that many of you have been frustrated over how legendaries made most of your dps, or even the struggle of pugging a mythic+ Let them know!.

[Kainslife]

Just a tip for those folks are aren't developers / software engineers:

Stick to just providing your feedback in a "I need to <blank> so I can <blank>" format. Providing "possible solutions" to any developer is a surefire way to get your feedback ignored.

[Bugg]

I added some oh my thoughts regarding M+, since Raiding is just a part of my WoW allocated time. For raiding I always have a spot in my guild because I'm a reliable dps, not the highest, but constant and reliable (no ED, IFE).
Maybe there are more like me, maybe not, but still, currently I would like to be fucking chosen in a random pug for a M+.
When I start a party myself I go as healer and I bring DH/shammy/whatever as DPS because of the stuns, interrupts and other crazy useless things like that.

[Drahkmar]

It's the same for me. Pugging as Boomkin is rough, so usually I end up tanking m+. I rarely ever go as Boomkin, and when I do i feel like my utility and aoe is very lackluster. Bosses are where I shine in there.

[Glengolars]

Just a tip for those folks are aren't developers / software engineers:

Stick to just providing your feedback in a "I need to <blank> so I can <blank>" format. Providing "possible solutions" to any developer is a surefire way to get your feedback ignored.

Could you give me a bit more insight on this mate?

[miDnight77]

Just a tip for those folks are aren't developers / software engineers:

Stick to just providing your feedback in a "I need to <blank> so I can <blank>" format. Providing "possible solutions" to any developer is a surefire way to get your feedback ignored.

Sorry but that is just a shortsighted argument. All engineers no matter what they do / create should listen to the Problems and even possible solutions of those who are using their products. If you are the Person who uses the product ie playes a certain spec all the time you might have a lot more "getting your hands dirty" insight into the spec than any developer can gather.

[rulem]

Random thought: What if they made Starfall a CD? Make it free, instant, ~30 sec CD. Stellar Drift can still increase the damage, movable while in the aoe, but reduce the CD instead of reducing the cost. I personally think they should totally scrap stellar empowerment and just make our DOTs stronger.

[Cyous]

Keep in mind, it's not that our AOE is undertuned, it's never utilized in encounter design. That is the crux of the issue.

[Deleted]

Just a tip for those folks are aren't developers / software engineers:

Stick to just providing your feedback in a "I need to <blank> so I can <blank>" format. Providing "possible solutions" to any developer is a surefire way to get your feedback ignored.

Also ignoring two of the biggest names in the boomie community is a surefire way to cause further problems. Your tips don't matter, when your selling a product all that matters is the result and not a single person cares about developers issues with getting the work done, they just care that the work gets done. Capeesh.

[Kainslife]

Also ignoring two of the biggest names in the boomie community is a surefire way to cause further problems. Your tips don't matter, when your selling a product all that matters is the result and not a single person cares about developers issues with getting the work done, they just care that the work gets done. Capeesh.

This is incorrect. All that matters is the correct result. See the rest of this post for explanations on why developers don't listen to solutions from users.

Sorry but that is just a shortsighted argument. All engineers no matter what they do / create should listen to the Problems and even possible solutions of those who are using their products. If you are the Person who uses the product ie playes a certain spec all the time you might have a lot more "getting your hands dirty" insight into the spec than any developer can gather.

There's almost no modern development process on this planet that encourages going to users for solutions. See the rest of this post for why that's the case.

Could you give me a bit more insight on this mate?

Sure.

A developer tends to have a much, much broader view of the entire scope of work than you do. So by providing solutions in addition to your problem you do two things:

* Communicate to the developer that you've likely spent more time thinking about solutions than the actual problem itself.
* Communicate potential solutions that are narrowly focused on your individual problem instead of solutions that fix your problem but fit into the larger picture.

Developers tend to ignore user solutions because of these two reasons. Touching more on the second bullet, if a developer starts to listen to user solutions they lose sight of the larger picture as they convince themselves it's actually a good solution if you ignore all of the other issues at play.

[thedeisel]

Keep in mind, it's not that our AOE is undertuned, it's never utilized in encounter design. That is the crux of the issue.

Would you mind elaborating on this point a bit? I'm sort of confused about the distinction.

Suppose we had a spell that you cast at the beginning of the fight which puts a 10min debuff on the target (limit 1 target!). After 10 min, the spell explodes to make us the very top single target damage. (maybe it does this by looking how much damage everyone else has done and then adds 1 to the top damage). If we didn't have that ability our damage other wise was quite terrible, bottom 5 percent of spec performance.

In that case would we say that our single target is not under tuned but that it's never utilized in encounter design (because encounters don't last 10min+ generally)?

Or am I missing something about the distinction between having adequate AoE damage and not having encounters that fit into our AoE?

It's not, after all, a coincidence that the kind of damage we're okay at (very long duration, lots of targets) doesn't really exist in encounters. Having lots of adds that live very long means they're just not important. It's not very fun to see your screen cluttered with meaningless stuff.

What kinds of encounters would be good for our current model of multi-target damage, going back through modern encounter design to, say, Cata or maybe ICC?

What's the difference between not having good aoe and having good damage for contexts which don't exist? Would anyone want the 10min debuff spell I mentioned above if it came at the cost of doing reasonable damage in all other contexts? Would we even want to say there's a difference in that case between not having good damage and having good damage for contexts which don't exist? What if it was a 20min spell? 30?

Ultimately, it doesn't seem to me to be the end of the world if we aren't good at AoE in raids because AoE in raids is very very specific—it's burst or bust. If that's the case, though, we should be good at single target or spread multi-dot or cleave (or, preferably at least 2 of those 3).

And in the end, I don't really feel that bad about our AoE situation. With the buffs on the PTR to Stellar Drift etc, I actually have found that ramp up in M+ is drastically reduced and with SotF you can really crank out a ton of starfalls as needed. Of course, that doesn't make us good at low target count cleave, multi-dot, or single target, which are where we need strengths to be good at raid encounters. And I don't honestly see a good way for them to give us good aoe in a raiding context (which is just basically burst aoe) without just making a new talent or substantially mechanically reworking an old one or some other significant mechanical change that's not coming mid expac.

Probably, a massive buff to our dots would be fine to address lots of problems in the spec. Yes, it would mean that we had crazy sustained high target count damage. But who cares. There's no value to having crazy high damage in that respect (in PvE at least...pretty obvious that any buffs to aoe for moonkin or dots needs to be run accompanied by counteracting nerfs in pvp context).

[growlar83]

i fell our aoe sucks and rarly get invited to mythic +. as we know trrash is more important then the boss. which i why we dont get an invite

[Cyous]

Would you mind elaborating on this point a bit? I'm sort of confused about the distinction.

Using your 10min "Curse of Doom" concept -- pretty much that.

At the moment, there are simply no encounters that actually favor us. Thinking back, I can't even think of any encounters we'd actually feel like we're amazing for it. Everything is burst, or doesn't really live long enough to be favorable..unless you consider Primordius padding (Bloods)... Council of Elders when you're not progressing...Sha of Fear phase 2...maybe.

Yeah...there isn't really anything you feel like Moonkin's AOE would be amazing at during progression.

We don't have a good AOE for the current designs in the game. Fury of Elune is overshadowed by Nature's Balance in single-target.

PEople say the spec is easy and boring...and they are using Nature's Balance lol...ofc is going to be dull with that talent. If Fury of Elune had a place to shine, we'd be going nuts with it.

[Slippykins]

Using your 10min "Curse of Doom" concept -- pretty much that.

At the moment, there are simply no encounters that actually favor us. Thinking back, I can't even think of any encounters we'd actually feel like we're amazing for it. Everything is burst, or doesn't really live long enough to be favorable..unless you consider Primordius padding (Bloods)... Council of Elders when you're not progressing...Sha of Fear phase 2...maybe.

Yeah...there isn't really anything you feel like Moonkin's AOE would be amazing at during progression.

We don't have a good AOE for the current designs in the game. Fury of Elune is overshadowed by Nature's Balance in single-target.

PEople say the spec is easy and boring...and they are using Nature's Balance lol...ofc is going to be dull with that talent. If Fury of Elune had a place to shine, we'd be going nuts with it.

I think Starfall padding on Kromog's hands was about as good as it got.

[lappee]

I think Starfall padding on Kromog's hands was about as good as it got.

Oh please, you all forgot Imperator Mar'gok Mythic last phase

On topic
Nagura's feedback is very concentrated on the playstyle she is used to (ED playstyle). By this I mean she doesnt really consider other talent/legendary options than the ones we currently use for ST dps. On top of that I've never know Nagura as the theorycrafter type.

Now I'm not saying that she's wrong or that there isn't issues with moonkins currently. I'm just saying that you should take this type of feedback with a grain of salt

[Deleted]

Oh please, you all forgot Imperator Mar'gok Mythic last phase

On topic
Nagura's feedback is very concentrated on the playstyle she is used to (ED playstyle). By this I mean she doesnt really consider other talent/legendary options than the ones we currently use for ST dps. On top of that I've never know Nagura as the theorycrafter type.

Now I'm not saying that she's wrong or that there isn't issues with moonkins currently. I'm just saying that you should take this type of feedback with a grain of salt

that is why you scroll down and read #3 post and so on.

and as extra information, what is written here is not just her words it has been edited/shared over discord boomie channel before submission. Nature's Balance is the only viable talent atm anyway.

[lappee]

that is why you scroll down and read #3 post and so on.

and as extra information, what is written here is not just her words it has been edited/shared over discord boomie channel before submission. Nature's Balance is the only viable talent atm anyway.

So you promote what she wrote but then tell me that she didnt really write it only to tell me to skip it. How nice of you.

NB is just one talent row and as far as I know we have several dps rows in our talent tree

[Deleted]

So you promote what she wrote but then tell me that she didnt really write it only to tell me to skip it. How nice of you.

NB is just one talent row and as far as I know we have several dps rows in our talent tree

matter of perspective.

tier 1 i hope you only go starlord unless necrotic.

tier 2 utility choices

tier 3 encounter preferences.

tier 4 cc

tier 5 incarnation

tier 6 its all about that AP generation

tier 7 nature's balance

I heard you went casual, but really what else is there that you wish to change? So if we have to take their words by grain of salt, I would assume, we have to do so from the casual perspective as well.

my above comment was that even if you only felt that Nagura wrote about her "ED gameplay" then perhaps you could see that Gebuz on #3 post talks about our sustain aoe and how it just doesn't work anylonger as well as our "Ramp up" being an issue.

I don't even know why im bothered replying such obvious stuff thesedays, my overall point so far has been that people should just stop being mad over who the fk wrote it instead of look at its context. is your ego really that big?

[miDnight77]

There's almost no modern development process on this planet that encourages going to users for solutions. See the rest of this post for why that's the case.

Sorry but this is just incorrect. Just 2 examples: I worked as a paramedic for some time and couple years ago the new ECG recording unit was developed closely together with us and our needs and demands on the street as well as in pre communication with Emergency Rooms and Hospitals before arriving.

Another Example Isreal is the 2nd biggest exporter of military weapons, weapon systems and Training just after the US. The biggest selling point for them is: It's field tested and developed closely with their ongoing fights in the palestinian settler areas.
Ignoring the needs of your costumers is just poor developing.

But on topic here again.

Blizzard focused so hard on the terms "class fantasy" before releasing Legion that, I as a Balance Druid, feel kinda cheated on. A lot of utillity Skills I kinda felt where core to our druid beeing where taken from us and would make a great return and get us abit more chance to get picked for M+ dungeons. Things like cyclone, roar, hurricane, mushroom or purge would be nice to have.

Also I would love to see changes made to FoE to make it viable on some of the fights but not all of them to give us a bit of changes in playing style from time to time.

[lappee]

snip.

7 talent rows, 4 of which affect dps and the way you chose is the default for ST dps.
If you want something else than just pure dps then you need to spec accordingly.

I heard you went casual, but really what else is there that you wish to change? So if we have to take their words by grain of salt, I would assume, we have to do so from the casual perspective as well.

Yes, I'm casual atm. I don't really want anything changed apart from somehow getting FoE scale with mastery.
You should always take words(and random numbers) with grain of salt but specially when people talk about a small part of the whole picture.

my above comment was that even if you only felt that Nagura wrote about her "ED gameplay" then perhaps you could see that Gebuz on #3 post talks about our sustain aoe and how it just doesn't work anylonger as well as our "Ramp up" being an issue.

Gebuz posts are better but have flaws as well, like the MM hunter comparison.

I don't even know why im bothered replying such obvious stuff thesedays, my overall point so far has been that people should just stop being mad over who the fk wrote it instead of look at its context. is your ego really that big?

So I'm mad that Nagura wrote it when I just want you to look at the text rather than the writer? And somehow thats relevant to my ego?