Blizzard have effectively gotten rid of flying

[WowIsDead64]

Walking.... is content...
So you log in and walk/run/fly for 3 hours without doing anything and you leave with a feeling of having improved your character?
This isn't morrowind. We don't level athleticism.

Well... You still need to get from one mob to another, from one quest item to another and from one quest to another. For example: if level of competition becomes high enough - amount of "walking" time becomes greater, than amount of time, being spent on actually doing quest itself. I.e. "walking" becomes >50% of "content". Don't pretend, that you're fool and don't understand, what am I taking about.

[Deleted]

Well... You still need to get from one mob to another, from one quest item to another and from one quest to another. For example: if level of competition becomes high enough - amount of "walking" time becomes greater, than amount of time, being spent on actually doing quest itself. I.e. "walking" becomes >50% of "content". Don't pretend, that you're fool and don't understand, what am I taking about.

Yes you do. And that's called "travelling".

[Deleted]

I always loved flying from and to Dalaran in wotlk, I miss that with the new Dalaran in Legion but I understand why they disable it for most of the time. I have mixed feelings about it.

[-Joker-]

and thus it's only useful for alts, you need to complete 7.2 to unlock pathfinder part 2 and 7.3 would likely not be flyable, it's not technically removed but in practice it is no difference with wod.

I think that when peoples talk about a compromise they just play with words the result is that flying has been heavily degrade to a mere alt catching up tool..

But again, here is what the other side is effectively failing to comprehend. Legion is NOT TBC. Legion is NOT Wrath. Legion is definitely NOT Cata. Legion is more like "Pandaria" save for an extra requirement. Had Blizz delayed flight on Pandaria until 5.2 or 5.3, how many people would have noticed? Or even cared? The ONLY reason people are pissed about flight is because of Draenor. It was poorly communicated, and poorly executed. Had there been more solid intel, less flip flopping, and one discernible voice in a see of Twitter feeds and Blue posts describing exactly what was going down and how, the outcry over flight with Draenor would have been more minimal than it already was.

The problem we have stems back to Pandaria (one of my least fave expacs since I despise Asian themes). We had flight at Max level for gold as always, but then Dino Isle, Thunder Isle, and Timeless Isle all had some magical air that affected everything except gliders (made for such immersion lol). The mistake made with Draenor was limiting flight to an achievement, and then flip flopping for over a year while less than stellar content flooded into the game. The patch before flight brought Selfies and Twitter feed links. Hardly quality programming. Had they made flight an achieve to work toward and unlock immediately at the pace of the player, and then left Tanaan Jungle flightless, it might have been a much more successful implementation.

But I digress. That was 3 years ago. Time marches on. So, what do we know about the here and now? What can we officially do or talk to Blizz about that they might listen? We know flight is coming with 7.2 and will unlock in every existing zone. We do NOT know if the 7.3 zone will be without flight, as we thought Tanaan would be (and wasn't). And after ONLY 7 months, we are already on the precipice of 7.2. The same patch on Draenor was more than 1 year, so they are inherently moving faster with content delivery and are going BIGGER than selfies and Twitter.

Important thing to remember: Blizz is a company and doesn't give two shits about one thread piloted by 5 people on a 3rd party site. If they did, a Blizz rep would pop in for Q&A, smooth shit over, and pop back out. I don't know about all of you, but I don't see any blue text from a Blizzard employee. 7.2 is around the corner. 7.3 is just going to have to take care of itself.

[WowIsDead64]

Yes you do. And that's called "travelling".

No. Travelling - is getting from your Garrison to Warsper, then to Vol'mar, then to, let's say, Zeth'Gol. Blizzard don't actually care, whether you will walk to get there, ride, fly, use flight path or even teleport. Actually flight path - isn't best way to get to place, you need, in terms of game design, cuz it's closer to teleporting due to taking you out of world. But once you're in Zeth'Gol - moving isn't "travelling" any more. It's actually "content". It's A or B, we're talking about, not travelling between A and B. What Blizzard try to avoid the most - is "stealth"-like behaviour. I.e. when player kills mob/grabs item, mounts, flies to next mob/item, while avoiding all trash on his way (including trash mobs, terrible terrain, competition, PVP crap), drops on head of next mob/grabs next item - and then repeats this procedure again, again and again. Blizzard considers this "trash" to be mandatory "content". I just don't agree with them. Yeah, it's content. But it just shouldn't be mandatory. Flying allows players to make exactly this choice - whether they like this content or they want to avoid it. Ok, Blizzard want to experience it as intended at least once. I agree to do it. But I don't agree to wait for a year to finally unlock flying, sorry.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

You guys are still arguing on flying? Seriously, the achievement system is there to stay people. Even if you dislike it, it's the closest to a compromise you'll see. World of Warcraft moved on with this philosophy and it's part of the core game. It's not going to change.

I mean, I understand some people might be upset about it. I don't know what to tell you.

[-Joker-]

Amen brother..... just amen.

I wish more people would get back to basics. The game was worlds of fun before Cataclysm and the need to fly everywhere. While it is an amazing freedom to have, that same freedom essentially chokes the life out of actual gameplay and exploration. For example. In TBC, in Hellfire Peninsula, In order to get to any of the Terrorfiends or the big boss in the corner (took 3+ people before heirlooms), you had to fight your way through Blistering rots:



Now, since Cata, flight has been reduced to 58 for Druids and 60 for all others. At this point you can drop in, kill fiends, and then drop right in on the overlord for the kill and fly away. No more challenge or cooperative game play:



The ability to solo most content in an MMO, and the lift off/touchdown of flying mounts has changed WoW from an MMO to an open world FPS. If people really wanted to regain that feeling, they would adventure with no money, bags, or heirlooms. Flying is just another service allowing you to get where you are going without caring where you are going or how you are getting there.

Most of us remember the LONG walk from Ironforge to Menethil Harbor without a flight path. Took almost 35 minutes even if you never came under attack (even though most of us did). Now, you fly out of Ironforge, flip a bitch, and come down the back side of the mountain. Takes 3 minutes... and you see nothing but snow, trees, and water. Gone are the days of passing other adventurers on the road and admiring their mount/gear. Seeing what they have accomplished and wanting to reach for the same. Now it's "What's the fastest way to get there and easiest way to solo this?".

Pitty.

[Deleted]

No. Travelling - is getting from your Garrison to Warsper, then to Vol'mar, then to, let's say, Zeth'Gol. Blizzard don't actually care, whether you will walk to get there, ride, fly, use flight path or even teleport. Actually flight path - isn't best way to get to place, you need, in terms of game design, cuz it's closer to teleporting due to taking you out of world. But once you're in Zeth'Gol - moving isn't "travelling" any more. It's actually "content". It's A or B, we're talking about, not travelling between A and B. What Blizzard try to avoid the most - is "stealth"-like behaviour. I.e. when player kills mob/grabs item, mounts, flies to next mob/item, while avoiding all trash on his way (including trash mobs, terrible terrain, competition, PVP crap), drops on head of next mob/grabs next item - and then repeats this procedure again, again and again. Blizzard considers this "trash" to be mandatory "content". I just don't agree with them. Yeah, it's content. But it just shouldn't be mandatory. Flying allows players to make exactly this choice - whether they like this content or they want to avoid it. Ok, Blizzard want to experience it as intended at least once. I agree to do it. But I don't agree to wait for a year to finally unlock flying, sorry.

So you want that pick and go system from MoP? Yeah Blizz doesn't want you to do that. That has been made pretty clear.

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I wish more people would get back to basics. The game was worlds of fun before Cataclysm and the need to fly everywhere. While it is an amazing freedom to have, that same freedom essentially chokes the life out of actual gameplay and exploration. For example. In TBC, in Hellfire Peninsula, In order to get to any of the Terrorfiends or the big boss in the corner (took 3+ people before heirlooms), you had to fight your way through Blistering rots:



Now, since Cata, flight has been reduced to 58 for Druids and 60 for all others. At this point you can drop in, kill fiends, and then drop right in on the overlord for the kill and fly away. No more challenge or cooperative game play:



The ability to solo most content in an MMO, and the lift off/touchdown of flying mounts has changed WoW from an MMO to an open world FPS. If people really wanted to regain that feeling, they would adventure with no money, bags, or heirlooms. Flying is just another service allowing you to get where you are going without caring where you are going or how you are getting there.

Most of us remember the LONG walk from Ironforge to Menethil Harbor without a flight path. Took almost 35 minutes even if you never came under attack (even though most of us did). Now, you fly out of Ironforge, flip a bitch, and come down the back side of the mountain. Takes 3 minutes... and you see nothing but snow, trees, and water. Gone are the days of passing other adventurers on the road and admiring their mount/gear. Seeing what they have accomplished and wanting to reach for the same. Now it's "What's the fastest way to get there and easiest way to solo this?".

Pitty.

This is exactly the kind of system "wowisdead" is advocating. Why I don't know.

[Beet]

Character boosting has nothing to do with Transmog. You're comparing two completely disparate things. Every piece of Transmog a player has was earned by that player. They didn't buy it in a cash shop. They spent time farming for it, either in a group when the content was relevant, or by soloing out of date raids and dungeons. I'm not even sure what point it is you're trying to make here.

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Complaining about completely legitimate issues. But I suppose as long as you're not having a problem, there isn't a problem, right?

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That's true. Players don't own the game, they only pay for access to it. However, you have to stop and consider that flying was part of the game for most of its life-span. It's been around longer than it hasn't, and is part of what made WoW different from every other bog-standard MMORPG on the market. By taking it away Blizzard is fundamentally changing what made WoW good in the first place.

Obviously some people will disagree, but that's only because they aren't losing the part of the game that they like and enjoy. It's the most narrow-minded kind of criticism. As I said above: "I'm not having a problem therefore there is not a problem" is shit logic.

Take ANY other aspect of the game and lock it behind Pathfinder and I guaranfuckingtee that suddenly people would understand the complaints about flying. Put raiding behind pathfinder. Put Battlegrounds or Arena behind a time-locked chain of BS achievements. Don't unlock pet battles or fishing until a year into the expansion. Withhold all your gear drops and artifact equipment behind completing every piece of content you'd use your gear and artifact on.

Do that then tell me that everything is fine and perfect.

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I can tell you're new to the discussion, because you're completely glossing over the legitimate arguments for flying and how it could make the game better, more interesting, and more immersive. If you really think people who want flying are just crying because they're entitled, then it shows everyone that you didn't even bother to research the issue.

Sorry I'm on my phone and it's difficult to remove the parts of the quote where you weren't replying to me. But yes as I'm not having the problem in this case it means there isn't one because the fix to said problem would create one for me. And you don't want to hear about that. I want flying gone entirely. It's not. Blizzard compromised. You're being greedy as fuck to expect flying to be in permanently just like I would be to now campaign for its entire removal. Which is why I'm not. I accept that the playerbase is split on this issue and neither side will ever agree to with the other side. So having it in for half the expansion only is the best possible solution Blizzard thought they could come up with.

[WowIsDead64]

First of, there is a big difference between what you see on this screenshot:

and current design of outdoor content:


Second, as I've already said, I'm not lazy. I'm totally ready to do content "as intended" at least once. What is unacceptable - is the fact, that I need to wait for a year for flying to be unlocked at least somewhere.

[Deleted]

First of, there is a big difference between what you see on this screenshot:

and current design of outdoor content:


Second, as I've already said, I'm not lazy. I'm totally ready to do content "as intended" at least once. What is unacceptable - is the fact, that I need to wait for a year for flying to be unlocked at least somewhere.

What exactly is the difference there. You know there's a ton of green slimes in that area in that first picture right?
You find it unacceptable. Others don't. Good luck complaining.

[WowIsDead64]

What exactly is the difference there. You know there's a ton of green slimes in that area in that first picture right?
You find it unacceptable. Others don't. Good luck complaining.

Imagine, you don't need to kill slimes. How many slimes would you need to kill to get to boss and back (small ones don't count - it's the same mob), while trying to avoid as many of them, as possible? 3? 4? Remember, that back then you could get out of location before respawn of mobs. And how about orcs? How many would you need to kill to get to gate and back? I see 11-12 within sight range, that 100% need to be killed. And this is just 30-50% of them. Also remember, that all of them would respawn within just one minute and you would have to kill them again.

[Dhrizzle]

See

Imagine, you don't need to kill slimes. How many slimes would you need to kill to get to boss and back (small ones don't count - it's the same mob), while trying to avoid as many of them, as possible? 3? 4? Remember, that back then you could get out of location before respawn of mobs. And how about orcs? How many would you need to kill to get to gate and back? I see 11-12 within sight range, that 100% need to be killed. And this is just 30-50% of them. Also remember, that all of them would respawn within just one minute and you would have to kill them again.

Depending on where you're trying to go you could probably avoid half of those orcs, but even if you had to kill all of them and your "1 minute respawn" was accurate you could probably get in and out quicker and with less downtime or danger of death than you could in the TBC content.

[xanzul]

I don't know. Simple logic. Just imagine, that tomorrow Blizzard would say, that the way, game is being played on PVP servers - is intended way to play the game. So they would remove PVE servers completely or would lock ability to unflag yourself behind some achievement, that would be obtainable only somewhere in the middle of xpack and only after "properly experiencing all PVP content". What would happen then?

Yeah, technically I still would be able to play such game. But would I want to play it? I guess, no.

And if you're PVEer, how would you feel then? Wouldn't you feel, that Blizzard have decided, what is better for you, on behalf of you?

P.S. If you're PVPer - just imagine opposite situation.

it's their game.There is just simply no getting around that one simple fact.

[SirCowdog]

Sorry I'm on my phone and it's difficult to remove the parts of the quote where you weren't replying to me. But yes as I'm not having the problem in this case it means there isn't one because the fix to said problem would create one for me. And you don't want to hear about that. I want flying gone entirely. It's not. Blizzard compromised. You're being greedy as fuck to expect flying to be in permanently just like I would be to now campaign for its entire removal. Which is why I'm not. I accept that the playerbase is split on this issue and neither side will ever agree to with the other side. So having it in for half the expansion only is the best possible solution Blizzard thought they could come up with.

You're going to have to perform some pretty incredible mental gymnastics to prove that someone else flying impacts how you play.

[Fabinas]

Also because the alternative, content to designed for flying mounts, leads to linear questing and huge zones with large empty areas which is bad design. Travelling in legion works fine.

Why flying leads to linear questing? Why ground doesn't? I see no correlation of the movement way and quest progression. While flying i can always land to see what this yellow exclamation mark guy wants from me.

Large empty areas? Yes, bad design. They can be populated, tho. They can have resources or other things (spawning chests, for example) that drive you there. Maybe have dangerous foes that need cooperation to be downed. Fixed your bad design. But i fixed it by making it... COSTLY. In time and money.

Travelling in Legion is fine for 2-3 months. 5 maybe. But if you play from the start, no. It's tedious and boring. Opinions differ.

[Dhrizzle]

You're going to have to perform some pretty incredible mental gymnastics to prove that someone else flying impacts how you play.

Not really. Blizzard have to balance the game around the abilities they give players. If players have the ability to fly Blizzard have to balance/pace the content around players flying. If content is balanced around players flying the "choice" to stay on the ground is an illusion as it will gimp your progression.

[SirCowdog]

Not really. Blizzard have to balance the game around the abilities they give players. If players have the ability to fly Blizzard have to balance/pace the content around players flying. If content is balanced around players flying the "choice" to stay on the ground is an illusion as it will gimp your progression.

THEN DO BOTH! DO all of it! Make content for fliers and make content for grounded people, just like they did in the previous expansions. Go all the way! Stop accepting mediocrity. Stop PAYING for mediocrity.

I already know I'm going to regret replying to you, because we've had this conversation countless times, and you still don't get it. Every argument against flying boils down to: "Make content for me and only me and fuck everyone else". It's shameful. It's short-sighted.

[-Joker-]

This is exactly the kind of system "wowisdead" is advocating. Why I don't know.

I can't speak to their reasoning. I can only speak for myself. Personally, I miss when the world felt large, and challenging, and even dangerous. There was a time as a lowbie in Elwynn Forest (2007) when the sound of 2 or more Murlocs attacking meant you were screwed. Now, as a Warlock in looms, I can stand at the lake, pull 20, take very little damage, and simply stand in one spot to loot.

While WoW has made some amazing strides forward, it has also made some ugly strides backward. Turning an MMO into a single player experience has done more harm than good... hence the fine folks who simply want to fly from A to B and skip everything in between, including other players.

[Wries]

The original point of this thread, I believe, is that 7.3 being in Argus likely they won't let us fly there. (Granted, this isn't confirmed, but feels pretty darn likely given the part 2 ach. explains its reward as "broken isles flying")

Getting flying in broken isles at this point is near-pointless. I'm all for it being locked away til some point but ultimately I feel it can be unlocked a little bit sooner and then not having its value diminished mid-expansion.