Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Deleted]

Well if you don't want to insanely grind there are other options. Stop caring about the game and forget about it or go more casual, asume you will not be the new Method and enjoy the game without forcing yourself to do nothing you don't want to do. The raids won't disapear, you will see the content, even in mythic, even in bad servers.

Obviously AP, gear, raiding mats, etc are there to make you play longer, having an objective and geting something every game sesion. Obviously they want you to stay subed and it is good to have things to do in your sub time.

The point you're missing is that people want to play mythic level content (eg the only content in wow that still have a relevant difficulty and a decent number of mechanics) while it is relevant (eg not after a new raid tier has been released and the content outgeared) without having to commit their life to farming outside of raid. When 99 % of the game is for casual players and the 1 % at a relevant difficulty is gated by an insane amount of grinding, people who are after difficulty and aren't pro are being excluded from the content.

That's the reason why pots farming was nerfed in TBC, and everyone was happy about that.

[Saiona]

Should just cap how much ap dungeons give a week. The incentive to do them is still titanforged gear after that

[Deleted]

The point you're missing is that people want to play mythic level content (eg the only content in wow that still have a relevant difficulty and a decent number of mechanics) while it is relevant (eg not after a new raid tier has been released and the content outgeared) without having to commit their life to farming outside of raid. When 99 % of the game is for casual players and the 1 % at a relevant difficulty is gated by an insane amount of grinding, people who are after difficulty and aren't pro are being excluded from the content.

That's the reason why pots farming was nerfed in TBC, and everyone was happy about that.

Of course. Mythic is the only challenging content in terms of mechanics. The rest is all lfr. Can easily be ignored.
Lol

As someone said earlier on, ap isn't the only thing dictating your dps. There's also gear. Keep farming hc and eventually the ilvl average of all the group would be enough to tackle mythic. Still totally relevant. No one is telling to do mythic NH in 7.2
Just not, 1 month after release.

[NewOrleansTrolley]

When you're angry, people tend not to listen to reason.

Soo.. the title is misleading. He's apparently just shooting the breeze and asking himself if there's a more fundamental problem criticizing AP in general.

[Deleted]

Of course. Mythic is the only challenging content in terms of mechanics. The rest is all lfr. Can easily be ignored.
Lol

That's true though due to how easy it is to overgear heroic (heroic that doesn't have stellar boss mechanics). Let me remind you that what you're calling heroic used to be the old normal raids before MOP (while the current normal mode used to be the flex mode).

As someone said earlier on, ap isn't the only thing dictating your dps. There's also gear. Keep farming hc and eventually the ilvl average of all the group would be enough to tackle mythic. Still totally relevant. No one is telling to do mythic NH in 7.2
Just not, 1 month after release.

If gear is more important than the player skills then the game isn't well designed. Gear has always been important in wow but not to the extent of legion.

[Jngizu]

Caps is the worst solution to this problem. I'd say that the AP system was in fact, created as the opposite to caps that were plaguing the game since late TLK and the introduction of valor.

So, instead of going back to a system that is, by nature, shitty for a MMO, what they should do is reward more AP to Mythic raiders. Every boss in a difficulty higher than LFR guarantees you AP on its first kill of that timer. The higher the difficulty, the higher the AP. The goal with that, is to allow Mythic raiders to earn enough AP through raids, leaving them free of not doing anything else besides it. But leaving the same system for the other players who don't care about the "Raid or gtfo" mentality that was in WoD.

[WowIsDead64]

Just another double standard, i.e. same argument is turned such way, that suits Blizzard:

Flying - we have to control, how players consume content - otherwise they'd burn out
AP grind - it's players' choice, hot to consume content - if they burn out, then it's their fault

[Elim Garak]

Caps is the worst solution to this problem. I'd say that the AP system was in fact, created as the opposite to caps that were plaguing the game since late TLK and the introduction of valor.

So, instead of going back to a system that is, by nature, shitty for a MMO, what they should do is reward more AP to Mythic raiders. Every boss in a difficulty higher than LFR guarantees you AP on its first kill of that timer. The higher the difficulty, the higher the AP. The goal with that, is to allow Mythic raiders to earn enough AP through raids, leaving them free of not doing anything else besides it. But leaving the same system for the other players who don't care about the "Raid or gtfo" mentality that was in WoD.

The only result of such approach would be: Mythic raiders are gaining more AP from raids than the rest. The grind will be the same becuase you have a weekly cap on raid AP, but no cap on other sources of AP.

[shyguybman]

Things they could do:

Put an AP cap based on your AK level. It doesn't have to be super low like maybe at AK25 it starts at 5-10 million, the average player will never get that in a week but someone in serenity/method/exorsus would grind it out in 1 or a few days.

I'm not really sure how to counter split raids unless they do something like having your raid lockout account wide the first 2 weeks and then it opens up after that. So week 1 would be normal/heroic, week 2 would be mythic and week 3 it would increase by 1 lockout. I'm not really sure how many people actually raid on multiple characters, especially the first week or two so it may not piss off a ton of people locking them to 1 char but who knows.

[Deleted]

That's true though due to how easy it is to overgear heroic (heroic that doesn't have stellar boss mechanics). Let me remind you that what you're calling heroic used to be the old normal raids before MOP (while the current normal mode used to be the flex mode).



If gear is more important than the player skills then the game isn't well designed. Gear has always been important in wow but not to the extent of legion.

Heroic and even normal provide challenging content. What is challenging content? Content that has mechanics that cannot be ignored, just overgeared. It might not be challenging for you but a newcomer just starting on NH normal will definitely find it challenging.
I totally agree with you about skills and gear though.

[Improtaight]

as with everything in life, you'll get tired of it eventually.
the more you do something, the faster u'll burn yourself, you can't go around that...

and for mythic raiders, if they're going to raid like madmen as soon as its released, almost without sleep, it's bound to happen sooner than later.

i wouldn't blame the RL, its every1's fault

[eillas]

It's the price one pays to be a Mythic raid guild. A push to do the hardest takes coordination, lots of effort, and time. So, it's only normal for a burn out to occur. It always happens, big name guilds rise burn out and others replace them.

[Army Dreamer]

"The first rule of leadership" for Ion.

[Jngizu]

The only result of such approach would be: Mythic raiders are gaining more AP from raids than the rest. The grind will be the same becuase you have a weekly cap on raid AP, but no cap on other sources of AP.

Not necessarily if they made it so Mythic boss give absurd amounts. Make those AP items BoA too, so once your artifact is full, you can send those to your alts. Problem solved.

[Deleted]

Heroic and even normal provide challenging content. What is challenging content? Content that has mechanics that cannot be ignored, just overgeared. It might not be challenging for you but a newcomer just starting on NH normal will definitely find it challenging.
I totally agree with you about skills and gear though.

No, normal and heroic isn't challenging content. Heroic and normal content are being completed on a daily basis with pick up groups. Challenging content cannot be completed in PuG.

Also, newcomers are being carried in heroic and normal on a daily basis due to the low skill level required for these level of difficulty.

The point is if you want challenging and interesting content you must go to mythic, mythic that is gated after gear/AP farming. That design cannot be right.

[Deleted]

No, normal and heroic isn't challenging content. Heroic and normal content are being completed on a daily basis with pick up groups. Challenging content cannot be completed in PuG.

Correction. Normal content is being cleared daily thanks to people having better gear. Heroic is still hard to clear in pug if the group doesn't click in as mechanics are tough.
That doesn't mean the content isn't challenging. That means the content isn't challenging for me. There is a difference between lack of mechanics and overgearing mechanics. Example, we have 3 raiding groups in the guild. The top one easily overgears normal and heroic. The new group finds normal a challenge.

Lfr is not challenging, where you can go afk in front of a boss as mechanics simply won't kill you.

[Deleted]

Correction. Normal content is being cleared daily thanks to people having better gear. Heroic is still hard to clear in pug if the group doesn't click in as mechanics are tough.
That doesn't mean the content isn't challenging. That means the content isn't challenging for me. There is a difference between lack of mechanics and overgear mechanics. Example, we have 3 raiding groups in the guild. The top one easily overgears normal and heroic. The new group finds normal a challenge.

Lfr is not challenging, where you can go ask in front of a boss as mechanics simply won't kill you.

The fact that you can overgear mechanics prove that the content is trivial. In older expansion (namely TBC) there were some bosses you couldn't overgear (like KT or vashj), just as you cannot overgear a good mythic encounter.

Also we may have to agree to disagree here.

There is a difference between lack of mechanics and overgear mechanics.

So far mechanics in legion raids have been terribly underwhelming compared to older expansions.

[Elim Garak]

I'm not really sure how to counter split raids unless they do something like having your raid lockout account wide the first 2 weeks and then it opens up after that. So week 1 would be normal/heroic, week 2 would be mythic and week 3 it would increase by 1 lockout. I'm not really sure how many people actually raid on multiple characters, especially the first week or two so it may not piss off a ton of people locking them to 1 char but who knows.

There is only one way to get rid of split raiding without affecting anything else. Raiding tournament servers. You remove all world/realm-first raiding achievements from normal servers. You get raiding guilds to roll on the special raiding tournament servers (serves as registration), they get to customize the looks of their characters (they are given characters of every class), all characters are max level and have the bis gear pre-equipped - and it cannot be removed or changed. All potions, food and flasks are unlimited in supply, etc.

Only skill matters. Raid instance resets each day, but exists only for 4 hours after activation by a raid leader. Raids are ranked by the day on which they beat the last boss and by the time it took them in last instance. So it doesn't matter if guild A starts 8 am and guild B starts 8 pm. Start whenever you feel like it.

They can only raid when a new raid is out and until it's beaten. They get world/realm-first there. And an account-bound chest with stuff too. Depending on how they ranked. They also get experience which they can use to gear up their real chars on the normal servers and then sell their services to others.

Everyone can watch them wipe.

[Vrothgar]

I agree halfway?If players will play like madman (24/7) they will burn out quickly cuz what we do next? Level up alts? Already done.Maybe some guides for average progressions and LFR RAIDERS? Nope. They unsub,no money for Blizz GG time to retire. In the other hand this is like: We created a content which is hard so...BANG 3 days later(short time after release in general) mythic cleared. So as a developer what would you said? Fight was not challenging or it was not easy but not that hard ? You must go with: It is your fault that you play too much, good evening everyone.

[Elim Garak]

Not necessarily if they made it so Mythic boss give absurd amounts. Make those AP items BoA too, so once your artifact is full, you can send those to your alts. Problem solved.

The only absurd amount that will work is enough AP to get 54 traits in one raid. Otherwise - grind grind grind. This is how ridiculously grindy the system is.