This Handgun Attachment For Police Aims to Make Bullets Non-Lethal

[Tijuana]

Well yeah obviously I meant in the realm of Policing they're pretty effective. Pretty sure you can get those for home defense too but I wouldn't rely on a shotgun for self defense anyways.

Why? They make fantastic home defense guns. They hit a wide area, and don't accidentally murder your neighbor when you miss.

[Dug]

Why? They make fantastic home defense guns. They hit a wide area, and don't accidentally murder your neighbor when you miss.

On paper it sounds good but I'm considering mobility. I feel like in the heat of the moment you can accidentally snag it/bump it against stuff and in that time someone could close the gap. With a hand gun you'll be much more in control imo.

[-aiko-]

This seems...pointless. One shot, prep time and the obvious orange color?

[A dot Ham]

Again google comes in handy.

Speed of a bullet is on average ~1700 mph.

Reducing that by 80% = ~340 mph.

http://youthsportssafetynow.blogspot...aths_9867.html

Death can occur from a projectile at ~90 mph to the head or chest.

Police are trained to shoot the center of mass... body.

Conclusion... assuming an officer hits his target. A projectile at ~340 mph to the chest still has a significant chance to cause fatality.

Do not invest!

[Tijuana]

I know I lose lots of sleep at night worrying about how we can save the lives of violent criminals trying to murder a cop. We definitely need better technology to keep these people alive so they can continue to enrich the culture and lives of others. Had Brown not been shot, he'd probably be graduating at the top of his class in theoretical physics at Oxford.

I mean, I laughed.

But, that's a bit harsh. The device is obviously silly and this is the last you will ever hear or see of it. But, that doesn't mean we should not be seeking safe methods of taking a bitch out, in a non-lethal manner.

[Forogil]

I can see a use for this as an optional add-on, but I think a better practice would just be to have the first 2-3 bullets in an officer's sidearm be rubber bullets, by default. Any situation where you get pushed into firing will thus default to less-than-lethal rounds, unless it's a serious enough situation to justify more than a couple shots, in which case you're into using lethal ammo, without having to worry about changing magazines.

Mixing lethal and non-lethal ammo in the same magazine and weapon seems does not seem like a good idea:
It is error-prone: what if the officer sees a minor threat - fires a few non-lethal bullets and then gets into another situation requiring non-lethal weapons, and forgets that it is now lethal bullets?
Weapons are also used as a threat - if people don't know if the weapon is non-lethal or lethal they will not read the situation in the same way - which might escalate it.

A separate taser seems like a better idea.

[Sesshou]

I can see a use for this as an optional add-on, but I think a better practice would just be to have the first 2-3 bullets in an officer's sidearm be rubber bullets, by default. Any situation where you get pushed into firing will thus default to less-than-lethal rounds, unless it's a serious enough situation to justify more than a couple shots, in which case you're into using lethal ammo, without having to worry about changing magazines.

There are two problems with this. One is that in a 'serious' situation such as one where the cop is being shot at, rubber bullets are less likely to end the threat as quickly. If the cop can fire 2-3 bullets, so can whoever is shooting at the cop. The other is that rubber bullets are still somewhat lethal. A rubber bullet is a whole lot more dangerous than say a bean bag round (which is also more lethal than you might think). If the situation doesn't actually require lethal force, the cop shouldn't really be firing rubber bullets either, and they should instead be going for a taser or some other option. I realize tasers have a chance to be lethal as well, but rubber bullets to the head are significantly more likely to kill someone than a taser.

[Tijuana]

On paper it sounds good but I'm considering mobility. I feel like in the heat of the moment you can accidentally snag it/bump it against stuff and in that time someone could close the gap. With a hand gun you'll be much more in control imo.

I was imagining a short barrel shotgun I guess. That may or may not have been illegally sawed off, and that may or may not live in my closet.

[Endus]

Mixing lethal and non-lethal ammo in the same magazine and weapon seems does not seem like a good idea:
It is error-prone: what if the officer sees a minor threat - fires a few non-lethal bullets and then gets into another situation requiring non-lethal weapons, and forgets that it is now lethal bullets?
Weapons are also used as a threat - if people don't know if the weapon is non-lethal or lethal they will not read the situation in the same way - which might escalate it.

A separate taser seems like a better idea.

There are two problems with this. One is that in a 'serious' situation such as one where the cop is being shot at, rubber bullets are less likely to end the threat as quickly. If the cop can fire 2-3 bullets, so can whoever is shooting at the cop. The other is that rubber bullets are still somewhat lethal. A rubber bullet is a whole lot more dangerous than say a bean bag round. If the situation doesn't actually require lethal force, the cop shouldn't really be firing rubber bullets either, and they should instead be going for a taser or some other option. I realize tasers have a chance to be lethal as well, but rubber bullets to the head are significantly more likely to kill someone than a taser.

The point wouldn't be for cops to think of the first few rounds as non-lethal. Any firing of their sidearm would have to be in response to what's considered a lethal threat. That the first bullets are rubber wouldn't change that. It would just tone down the lethality in any situation where the first couple rounds stopped it.

It wouldn't change how officers' use of force was justified; they'd face the same expectations as they would have if those had been lethal rounds.

If it's a situation where they're going to unload the entire magazine, then it's not going to make much difference, anyway. For cases where you get pushed and pop a couple rounds into a guy, though, it could save lives.

[Dug]

I was imagining a short barrel shotgun I guess. That may or may not have been illegally sawed off, and that may or may not live in my closet.

Mine's got a 28 inch barrel so it's kind of a pain in the ass to maneuver with heh

[Sesshou]

If it's a situation where they're going to unload the entire magazine, then it's not going to make much difference, anyway. For cases where you get pushed and pop a couple rounds into a guy, though, it could save lives.

You're ignoring my first point on why it makes quite a bit of difference. A hit with a rubber bullet has a much greater chance of not ending the threat than a hit with a normal bullet. If we're already knocking it down to cases that would be considered a lethal threat, why do you want to hamstring the officer's ability to end that threat for their own safety as well as any bystanders? You are right that it could save some lives, but it also puts lives at risk. In this case, I think the better choice is to favor the risk towards the individual presenting a lethal threat to law enforcement / innocents.

[Deleted]

This seems pointless, and somewhat ineffective, it looks like there are far better alternatives.

[zenkai]

Those who think this is a good idea - Never shot a gun.

Those who think this is a bad idea - Understands a gun.


It's pretty easy to not get shot by the police, follow Zenkai's 2 important rules

1. Don't commit crimes.
2. If you fail to follow rule 1, don't resist arrest.

Following these 2 simple rules has kept me from getting shot, by the police, I have had multiple interactions with the police in my youth and 0 times it has resulted in violence.

[Azadina]

Again google comes in handy.

Speed of a bullet is on average ~1700 mph.

Reducing that by 80% = ~340 mph.

http://youthsportssafetynow.blogspot...aths_9867.html

Death can occur from a projectile at ~90 mph to the head or chest.

Police are trained to shoot the center of mass... body.

Conclusion... assuming an officer hits his target. A projectile at ~340 mph to the chest still has a significant chance to cause fatality.

Do not invest!

That's talking about baseballs. Pretty sure baseball has alot more mass compared to a bullet. It's the kinetic energy that matters, and both 90 mph and 340 mph are irrelevant on their own.

[enragedgorilla]

From My personal perspective, with the Laws ,Procedures and Training I have been taught using the Departmental "Use of Force Matrix" ...that I have been taught, yearly if not more,for going on 15 years...(Matrix means you do not HAVE to go in a specific order , like a ladder to Use a type of force You can Pick one that is reasonable/appropriate to the situation and in accordance with the mindset,training and experience of a similar officers at that time....yeah, gets a bit tricky)

Verbal Commands/and Command presence -Hand to hand- OC / Pepper Spray -Baton- Taser (Tazer) - Less lethal bean bag rounds- SIMS type weapons (fast and short think Grenade launchers with "baton" rounds) This thing - Then the Bullet?

I see a use IF the department in question does not use Less lethal Shotguns OR SIMS type weapons , budgets etc.
However , Mainline, beat cops?
Nope.
I was taught, over and over again, IF you are pulling your firearm it means you are already facing an imminent or impending threat , likely to cause permanent harm or death and can respond with lethal force, knowing you very likely will cause permanent injury or death to the suspect.
it is not the time to be thinking,"Here let me slide this over my firearm (small hand movements in a stress situation??) and see if the suspect stop now" that 2-3 seconds? You are or very likely will be DEAD.

With all the other tools available (taking into count the smaller dept scenario I listed above) This just doesn't look worth it.

[Swizzington]

I can see a use for this as an optional add-on, but I think a better practice would just be to have the first 2-3 bullets in an officer's sidearm be rubber bullets, by default. Any situation where you get pushed into firing will thus default to less-than-lethal rounds, unless it's a serious enough situation to justify more than a couple shots, in which case you're into using lethal ammo, without having to worry about changing magazines.

Good idea in theory. Not sure in practice though. I see a lot of cops who can't hold their composure in those high stress situations, they end up firing waaay more than 2-3 bullets, and all the while, I don't think they're keeping count. Maybe additional training could take care of this, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Sesshou]

That's talking about baseballs. Pretty sure baseball has alot more mass compared to a bullet. It's the kinetic energy that matters, and both 90 mph and 340 mph are irrelevant on their own.

The area the force is spread over upon impact also matters, and that is going to be larger with a baseball. You may not realize this, but bean bag bullets to the chest are still fairly lethal which I'm pretty sure have less mass than a baseball. A normal bean bag round is around 1.4 ounces and around 200 mph. I don't know the mass the ball in this device has, but at 340 mph it would have to be quite a bit less to not end up with quite a bit more force than a bean bag round.

[Kathandira]

Just let the cops shoot stupid people who do not want to obey that simple. If a cop tells you to put your hands up and lay on the ground do it. If you don't and get shot your fault. People need to stop thinking that they are above the law.

That is some dangerously slippery slope shit.

All an officer needs to shoot and kill you is you not doing as your told?

Officers aren't completely above the law. They aren't allowed to shoot and kill you if you don't listen. You have to be a threat.

[A dot Ham]

That's talking about baseballs. Pretty sure baseball has alot more mass compared to a bullet. It's the kinetic energy that matters, and both 90 mph and 340 mph are irrelevant on their own.

http://www.alternativeballistics.com/

It doesn't just slow down the bullet. The ball "catches" the bullet and the "now bigger" bullet carries on to the target. It looks slightly bigger than a golfball... not sure about mass or material... but I can't imagine its made out of aluminum.

While your logic is sound... when we are talking about those speeds... and the end result I don't think it matters.

I can't say for certain... but if all it did was "slow" the bullet I think a bullet size object even at 340 mph, would still have penetrating power. The larger the object that more spread out the damage. But as I said in this case, with these objects, at that speed... the point is moot. Hit in the head... you're looking at significant brain trauma. Hit in the chest... and it could easily stop the heart.

Hence why they are referring to it as "less" lethal.

[Brubear]

Those who think this is a good idea - Never shot a gun.

Those who think this is a bad idea - Understands a gun.


It's pretty easy to not get shot by the police, follow Zenkai's 2 important rules

1. Don't commit crimes.
2. If you fail to follow rule 1, don't resist arrest.

Following these 2 simple rules has kept me from getting shot, by the police, I have had multiple interactions with the police in my youth and 0 times it has resulted in violence.

Because that's the only time cops EVER shoot people. Clearly, if a cop shoots you then you must have done at LEAST one of those two things.



Yep. Just follow directions and you won't get shot.