Flying Next Expack

[-Joker-]

Why is this still an issue? Pathfinder is the de facto standard going forward.

Now if Blizz would just put that in writing. Might shut up a vocal minority. Seems like this is the new norm.

Will there be flying in 7.3?
Will there be flying in 7.4?
Will there be flying in (insert all 8.x patches individually)
etc

[Fabinas]

Why is this still an issue? Pathfinder is the de facto standard going forward.

Because it's a shit de facto and we discuss different ways to access flight.

[SirCowdog]

Will there be flying in 7.3?
Will there be flying in 7.4?

These are legitimate questions. Because according to Blizzard the reason why they didn't have flying in at launch is because it presented too many problems for the presentation of the content. They wanted players to experience it in the "intended fashion" before getting flight.

But if that still holds true, it means that any open world content planned for after 7.2 either won't have flying or MUST be designed to incorporate and include flying. Or worse, Blizzard just doesn't plan on releasing any more open world content after 7.2; it will all be instances, dungeons, or raids.

And you're right that it would nice if Blizzard would just come out and explain their intentions. People would shut up, but many of them would probably also quit. And Blizzard would never risk that when they can keep leading people on with bullshit like Pathfinder.

[Coffeh]

Because it's a shit de facto and we discuss different ways to access flight.

It's been a complete and utter failure the last two expansions (especially Legion) and Ion still loves it. It seems almost impossible to be so out of touch with your playerbase.

[-Joker-]

These are legitimate questions. Because according to Blizzard the reason why they didn't have flying in at launch is because it presented too many problems for the presentation of the content. They wanted players to experience it in the "intended fashion" before getting flight.

But if that still holds true, it means that any open world content planned for after 7.2 either won't have flying or MUST be designed to incorporate and include flying. Or worse, Blizzard just doesn't plan on releasing any more open world content after 7.2; it will all be instances, dungeons, or raids.

And you're right that it would nice if Blizzard would just come out and explain their intentions. People would shut up, but many of them would probably also quit. And Blizzard would never risk that when they can keep leading people on with bullshit like Pathfinder.

I could care less if they quit. Game has enough whiners as it is. And no. Neither is a legitimate question since the majority of players could care less about flight and will buy it anyway. In this poll alone the ratio is 2:1 for people who will buy and play the expac either way. I don't need to know I can pull out a pocket dragon and fly off to have a good time.

Is the storyline strong and engaging?
Does it make sense with the existing timeline?
Is there enough 5M content?
Is there enough raid content?
Should there be a stat squish to balance out future movements?
Do the rotations make sense?
Is one class OP and another obsolete?
Do the fight mechanics make sense?
Are the quest hubs fairly linear?
Is the time between patches sufficient?

All of these are actual, legitimate questions. That said, regardless of these questions, I will still buy and try the next expac regardless of any of these including flight. If I enjoy it, I will continue to play. If I do not, I will unsub like an adult and go find something better to do until 9.0. I won't continue to pay a sub for an expac I don't find exciting, nor will I haunt a forum and bitch about it. I will however make my way to FF or SWtOR for awhile and let the recent let down of WoW fade from my system.

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It's been a complete and utter failure the last two expansions (especially Legion) and Ion still loves it. It seems almost impossible to be so out of touch with your playerbase.

Weird how a large chunk of the base is not bothered by it and actually appreciate the same things he does. It's not possible to please 100% of the people 100% of the time, so Blizz aims for 50.1% of the people 50.1% of the time. Seems to be a successful formula the brings players back every time there is a new expac.

[SirCowdog]

I could care less if they quit. Game has enough whiners as it is. And no. Neither is a legitimate question since the majority of players could care less about flight and will buy it anyway. In this poll alone the ratio is 2:1 for people who will buy and play the expac either way. I don't need to know I can pull out a pocket dragon and fly off to have a good time.

Don't you ever get sick of the "Everyone should play the game the same way I do, and like the same things I like, or GTFO" routine?

All of these are actual, legitimate questions. That said, regardless of these questions, I will still buy and try the next expac regardless of any of these including flight. If I enjoy it, I will continue to play. If I do not, I will unsub like an adult and go find something better to do until 9.0. I won't continue to pay a sub for an expac I don't find exciting, nor will I haunt a forum and bitch about it. I will however make my way to FF or SWtOR for awhile and let the recent let down of WoW fade from my system.

So you're going to give Blizzard money no matter what they do. I shouldn't need to explain why this is bad, and how this is one of the worst things a consumer can do.

Weird how a large chunk of the base is not bothered by it and actually appreciate the same things he does. It's not possible to please 100% of the people 100% of the time, so Blizz aims for 50.1% of the people 50.1% of the time. Seems to be a successful formula the brings players back every time there is a new expac.

Ignorance is Bliss. Not being bothered by something isn't the same thing as something being good.

Also, why shoot for only half the people for half the expansion, when you could raise those numbers? Aiming low and not even trying to improve is a great path towards mediocrity. Is that what you want WoW to be? Just another standard, mediocre MMO? Because that's the direction it's going.

[Atrea]

I'm fine with how they did it this time around.

August (honestly, almost September) to April isn't that long of a wait. Most of us unlocked it the 2nd week of April.
Flying isn't "required". It's a nice thing to have, but you can play the game without it. Case in point; there are plenty of people who still are doing that right now.

Blizzard wants you to fully experience the world content of Legion. That's why flying is gated like this.
It gave a clear objective from the launch of the expansion, as they included Broken Isles Pathfinder part 1. Having that early goal gave a lot of meaning to doing the content, too. You knew what your reward was going to be.

It also made it possible to catch up rather easily. My wife started from scratch back in March, and ended up getting flying unlocked yesterday. If you actually put in effort, it is not a complex task at all.

[Bathory]

I don't care either way, but I like this new system of flying. I like having to work for it a bit, but I guess one could make the argument that leveling IS the work. So, /shrug. I'm fine with whatver.

[SirCowdog]

It's a nice thing to have, but you can play the game without it. Case in point; there are plenty of people who still are doing that right now.

Yes, because the open world was designed to exclude flying. But what if the open world had been built to include flying as part of the experience?

Think of it this way: People could play the game without their artifact. Do they? Or did they enjoy working on it over the course of the entire expansion? Now imagine if players spent all that time and effort to improve their artifact, but didn't get it until right now in 7.2. Do you think they'd have been ok with that? Would that have been an acceptable experience?

Blizzard wants you to fully experience the world content of Legion.

Yes, and that experience included flying from TBC to MoP! It's part of what made the open world of WoW so good. If Blizzard wants people to FULLY experience the content, maybe they should stop taking pieces of it out?

It gave a clear objective from the launch of the expansion, as they included Broken Isles Pathfinder part 1. Having that early goal gave a lot of meaning to doing the content, too. You knew what your reward was going to be.

The content itself should provide the meaning. If you're only doing the content because of some ambiguous "reward" at the end of it, then why is it so important to "fully experience" it? Another way of looking at it: If the reward is the only thing really giving the content meaning, then maybe the content should be improved instead of forcing people into it by holding the "reward" hostage. Do the ends justify the means?

It also made it possible to catch up rather easily. My wife started from scratch back in March, and ended up getting flying unlocked yesterday. If you actually put in effort, it is not a complex task at all.

Putting in effort to get something is good. Being forced to slog through a list of tasks that aren't in any way actually relevant to what you're trying to achieve, however, is not. I think it's fair to say that Blizzard could have done a better job on the presentation side of Pathfinder. I mean...come on, they can make a series of quests for crafting skills, but couldn't be bothered to explain why our dragons and griffons forgot how their wings work? o_O

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I don't care either way, but I like this new system of flying. I like having to work for it a bit, but I guess one could make the argument that leveling IS the work. So, /shrug. I'm fine with whatver.

What would you think about a system of obtaining flight where you started out with a slow, weak ability to fly that you slowly improved as you completed the content of the open world? Sort of like how the artifact started out relatively weak, but improved with the more time and effort a person spent playing the game.

Also, what would you think about Blizzard actually giving the flying unlock some context with a series of quests that actually explained why you have to do all the pathfinder tasks?

[-Joker-]

Don't you ever get sick of the "Everyone should play the game the same way I do, and like the same things I like, or GTFO" routine?

There's your first mistake. I am not saying play the way I do. I am saying, "Play the game the way it is designed. Devs don't need people who just sit and bitch about their game, and certainly should not cater to them."

So you're going to give Blizzard money no matter what they do. I shouldn't need to explain why this is bad, and how this is one of the worst things a consumer can do.

Again. Not what I said. I will buy the game and play it as long as the previews look interesting and it holds my interest. I made the mistake of buying Pandaria, but quit with 5.2 and stayed gone until WoD. Paying for a game I like is not "paying them no matter what they do". If I dislike a change, I can always unsub and wait for the next Patch/Expac. It's only a game and I have far more important shit to think about in my real life.

Ignorance is Bliss. Not being bothered by something isn't the same thing as something being good.

Also, why shoot for only half the people for half the expansion, when you could raise those numbers? Aiming low and not even trying to improve is a great path towards mediocrity. Is that what you want WoW to be? Just another standard, mediocre MMO? Because that's the direction it's going.

I agree. But if I am not bothered by something, I happen to believe it to be good. If it sucks, it will bother me. At that point I can unsub and go on with my life. I don't feel the urge to sit and whine in a forum to a bunch of strangers. WoW is hardly mediocre. Never will be. People come and go, but even pissed off, unsubbed individuals still stick to the game like glue. Legion is far better than WoD, but miles worse than Wrath. TBC and Wrath were pinnacle moments in this game. People who refuse to move away from the past, and accept the present will have the toughest times in the future.

I refuse to tell Nintendo to improve Mario Bros. I won't ask EA to improve the Sims. I'm certainly not going to waste air asking Blizz to "improve" WoW when I am already happy with the existing product. Sadly, entitled snowflakes will continue to barrage Blizz with unreasonable and out of line requests simply because they have played since Vanilla and feel they deserve to be heard. When I bought the game, I read this:

The Truth About The Game and Your Rights With Blizzard

Ownership.

All rights and title in and to the Service (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, “applets,” transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games) are owned by Blizzard or its licensors. The Game and the Service are protected by United States and international laws, and may contain certain licensed materials in which Blizzard’s licensors may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

No Ownership Rights in Account.

NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU SHALL HAVE NO OWNERSHIP OR OTHER PROPERTY INTEREST IN ANY ACCOUNT STORED OR HOSTED ON A BLIZZARD SYSTEM, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY BNET ACCOUNT OR WORLD OF WARCRAFT ACCOUNT, AND YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL RIGHTS IN AND TO SUCH ACCOUNTS ARE AND SHALL FOREVER BE OWNED BY AND INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF BLIZZARD.

As for "making suggestions", you would be better served with following the ACTUAL procedure to have your ideas viewed:

https://us.battle.net/support/en/art...blizzard-games

World of Warcraft Suggestions
To submit an in-game suggestion:

1. Press the Esc key to open the Game Menu, and click Help.
2. Click Submit Suggestion.
3. Follow the guidelines on the submission form, and enter your suggestion.
4. Click Submit.

^ this is how to get Blizz to see you.

[SirCowdog]

There's your first mistake. I am not saying play the way I do. I am saying, "Play the game the way it is designed. Devs don't need people who just sit and bitch about their game, and certainly should not cater to them."

Except that you're not advocating just playing how the game was designed. You're also heavily implying that no other way besides what the devs intend, in a very narrow and strict sense, is acceptable.

This entire argument boils down to that. Some people being unable to comprehend that it's not only possible, but entirely acceptable, for different playstyles to co-exist. But I wouldn't expect you to be able to see that with your head so far up Blizzard's ass.

Again. Not what I said.

Actually that's exactly what you said. Here, let me quote you again:

"That said, regardless of these questions, I will still buy and try the next expac regardless of any of these including flight."

That seems pretty cut and dry. You went on to explain that you might discontinue playing later, if it turned out you didn't enjoy it. But your words clearly indicate that you're going to buy first and think later. Which is clearly upheld by your attempts at rationalizing it.

Paying for a game I like is not "paying them no matter what they do".

You paid the box price without thinking. Once they have your money they don't care what you think. Once they have your money, in fact, your opinion no longer matters to them until the next time they want your money. This is why a combination of speaking with your wallet AND expressing what you want from a game company is so important. Just shutting up and leaving quietly isn't useful. Continuing to fork over money and using "official" channels is highly ineffective for the above reasons.

[-Joker-]

But I wouldn't expect you to be able to see that with your head so far up Blizzard's ass.

Ironic considering your signature line: "If you have to attack a person instead of what they're saying, then you've already lost the argument."

We're done here. I don't mind a debate, but I'm not stooping to name calling and trolling. Plus with your ability to cherry pick what you need, it's not worth my time. You are willfully capturing only the portions you need to suit your narrative.

[SirCowdog]

Ironic considering your signature line: "If you have to attack a person instead of what they're saying, then you've already lost the argument."

We're done here. I don't mind a debate, but I'm not stooping to name calling and trolling. Plus with your ability to cherry pick what you need, it's not worth my time. You are willfully capturing only the portions you need to suit your narrative.

Sorry you can't handle the truth. You keep contradicting yourself, and blinding defending Blizzards actions. But when I call you out on it and quote your own words back to as evidence, somehow it's unacceptable. Maybe next time you should keep a consistent story when trying to make a point. And maybe next time have the moral and intellectual courage to recognize when you're wrong.

Yeah, I didn't stick to my signature with you. But sometimes bullshit needs to be called out.

[ComputerNerd]

With the introduction of pathfinder part two, I had to meet the requirement of exploring the broken isles.
It turns out that I had only 2 criteria to meet there, 1 location in Highmountain and one in Stormheim.
My near complete exploration of the zones was not from a choice to go out and see what was there, but in having to work around awkward terrain I discovered much of it by accident.
The repetition for the reputation seems to be destroying exploration as a choice.
It being more something that just happens, passively.

[-Joker-]

Sorry you can't handle the truth. You keep contradicting yourself, and blinding defending Blizzards actions. But when I call you out on it and quote your own words back to as evidence, somehow it's unacceptable. Maybe next time you should keep a consistent story when trying to make a point. And maybe next time have the moral and intellectual courage to recognize when you're wrong.

Yeah, I didn't stick to my signature with you. But sometimes bullshit needs to be called out.

You can call someone on things without insulting them. You should try it some time.

[SirCowdog]

You can call someone on things without insulting them. You should try it some time.

Yeah, I did. Repeatedly. And your response? Pretending like you didn't say them.

Screw it. S-class troll identified and ignored. Can't believe I let you get me so angry.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

You can call someone on things without insulting them. You should try it some time.

You are either new to these threads or a troll account. But if you are newer you should just realize who you are replying to. He isn't someone interested in discussion or opposing views. He has had the same 5-8 things he has repeated for years and pretty much just parrots them in every thread with the word flying in the title. It always starts off as "hey guys it's cool let's talk" and then boils into "fuck you, ignored, because you're an asshole (aka don't share my view)." After that for some reason I guess keeping threads with the word flying in the title on the first page becomes the priority because that's when the parrot in all of them goes into automatic.

Just sit back and enjoy the show. So much effort for so little gain is how I view this tragedy. Don't let it slip by you. Although I understand the need to engage. Most of us were there one. Won. Then moved on. You will do the same. But thanks for the spice.

[Dhrizzle]

Without flying Wow is essentially Diablo-like 2D game. You can project whole accessible area onto some plane and then have 2D map of world. And in this case any change of height > some X - is essentially just a wall in this 2D world. And the biggest question is - do we actually need so many walls in a game, that isn't about navigating in mazes? Don't you think, that majority of this walls - just unnecessary artificial obstacles on your route? Remember Vanilla? Mulgore? Barrens? See, how mountains were implemented in the past? No mazes of impassable walls. That's, what I call "ground-friendly content".

Spoiler: 

You're not entirely accurate comparing Diablo with WoW, other than the fact that a full 3D environment is (in my opinion) much more enjoyable to explore than an isometric view, there's also the point that (as far as I can remember) Diablo actually is 2D, there are no points where you can take a higher path over a lower one, wheres WoW has things like caves and bridges etc. So whilst it doesn't really handle 3D movement very well (one of the reasons the devs aren't keen on implementing flight as a central part of the gameplay) it isn't truly 2D in the way you think. However even if it was, wouldn't that make WoW with flight a 2D game with a no-clip cheat to walk through walls? I don't think that's much of an improvement to gameplay.

I remember Mulgore and Barrens as being pretty boring zones, but as an alliance player I was mostly just running through them on my way elsewhere. I preferred places like Dun Morog, Ashenvale, STV, Feralas, Plaguelands etc, many parts of which had what you would call a "maze" but what I would consider more interesting terrain that takes a couple of moments to look around and figure the path, or some degree of exploration rather than pointing your character in the right direction and hitting auto-run.

BTW why do you call mountains and other barriers "artificial," but don't consider open plains to be "artificial?"

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It's because the reasoning given by blizzard about having to explore and experience the game from the ground is nothing more than a reasonable-sounding excuse to cover turning Flight into a carrot for players to chase instead of being an active part of the overall experience of WoW. I can understand the part about not wanting to ruin the presentation of the regular questing/leveling experience, even if I disagree with it. But trivializing WQs where we land and auto-group with people to kick squirrels around and steal their nuts? LOL? The explanation just doesn't hold up.

Also probably because Ion or Afrasiabi would be crucified by the community if they were honest enough to come right out and say, "I'm in charge and I don't like flying, so fuck it."

I really have to ask why you struggle so much with the squirrel quest, it seems to be a massive problem for you considering how often you bring it up. How do you think flying will improve that quest? It's already right next to a flight path and the objectives are really close together.

[SirCowdog]

He isn't someone interested in discussion or opposing views. He has had the same 5-8 things he has repeated for years and pretty much just parrots them in every thread with the word flying in the title.

False. I'm just not interested in hearing Blizzard's words regurgitated for the billionth time. I'm perfectly willing to have a normal discussion with someone who's willing to see reason. But if all a person has to say is the same, tired, boring "Groundeded iz t3h only wayz fer games to hav fun!!!11!1one1!!!" then I'm not interested. And yeah, I'll use the same responses to those kinds of posts.

It always starts off as "hey guys it's cool let's talk" and then boils into "fuck you, ignored, because you're an asshole (aka don't share my view)."

For the record, I've never called anyone an asshole. Your words, not mine.

But also for the record, usually when I start out talking to a new person I keep it reasonable. I've had a few perfectly normal discussions with people in this very thread. But if I dig a little deeper and see the aforementioned rehashing of the same nonsense, yeah, I'll pick it apart. And if that person isn't willing to see that there are perfectly reasonable and viable alternatives to how flying was implemented, I'll call them out on being narrow-minded. If they take it up a level, then I'll follow(up to a point).

If that seems like I'm being unreasonable, it's because I'm constantly willing to tangle with unreasonable people. Don't confuse the two.

Won. Then moved on.

If you consider "winning" to be refusing to even look at points of view other than your own, or just falling back on "Well Blizz said so!" then I don't know what to tell you. Say whatever you want about me, but you can't deny that I at least look at people's arguments before responding. But if you identify yourself as just another mindless Blizzard drone, then that's exactly how I'm going to treat your posts. If people don't like that, then they should maybe think before responding. I guarantee you if they did I wouldn't get into so many arguments.

[WowIsDead64]

You're not entirely accurate comparing Diablo with WoW, other than the fact that a full 3D environment is (in my opinion) much more enjoyable to explore than an isometric view, there's also the point that (as far as I can remember) Diablo actually is 2D, there are no points where you can take a higher path over a lower one, wheres WoW has things like caves and bridges etc. So whilst it doesn't really handle 3D movement very well (one of the reasons the devs aren't keen on implementing flight as a central part of the gameplay) it isn't truly 2D in the way you think. However even if it was, wouldn't that make WoW with flight a 2D game with a no-clip cheat to walk through walls? I don't think that's much of an improvement to gameplay.

I remember Mulgore and Barrens as being pretty boring zones, but as an alliance player I was mostly just running through them on my way elsewhere. I preferred places like Dun Morog, Ashenvale, STV, Feralas, Plaguelands etc, many parts of which had what you would call a "maze" but what I would consider more interesting terrain that takes a couple of moments to look around and figure the path, or some degree of exploration rather than pointing your character in the right direction and hitting auto-run.

Illusion of 3D world can be created in 2D game via portal tech. When it seems to you, that you climb to 2nd floor, that is above some other location - you actually just port to some other part of map, that is still on the same level, as any other locations. This is how some old pseudo-3D games worked. Like Duke Nukem 3D for example. So, at the end any 3D map can be represented as some 2D maze. But that's not, what we are talking about.

I just try to say, that for me "Open world" - is location with complete freedom of movement. What we have now - is essentially bunch of 3D mazes of small rooms and narrow corridors. Something like mine cave in your Garrison, but with illusion, that it's open world location, created via removing celling of this cave and showing you sky. But it's still essentially a cave, cuz "artificial" walls prevent you from moving strait from point A to point B - you have to clear your way through maze of corridors, filled with crowds of mobs. And if you also will combine this already bad enough design with competition - you'll get simply unbearable design.

So, what I actually want - is "World of OpenWorldCraft" not "World of CaveMazeCraft". And in this case flying simply brings feeling of open world back.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not completely against any 3D features. Yeah, they can be parts of scenery and immersion. But they shouldn't be parts of gameplay.

Can't find proper picture to use as example. Just imagine, what will happen, if you will project this hill onto horizontal plane. You will get 2D maze, that can be represented as some sort of cave.

P.S. This is the reason, why this design is called "claustrophobic" - because you feel, like you're in narrow cave, not in open world.