Brewmaster tier 20 set bonus

[ReD-EyeD]

5% stagger clear for an orb feels kinda underwhelming for 4p tho. Still infinitely better than previous Enfuse bonus.

I'm actually thinking about running 2p and completely skipping 4p here.

[Tech614]

5% stagger clear for an orb feels kinda underwhelming for 4p tho. Still infinitely better than previous Enfuse bonus.

I'm actually thinking about running 2p and completely skipping 4p here.

The 2 piece is what makes the 4 piece strong.

[ReD-EyeD]

The 2 piece is what makes the 4 piece strong.

Obviously. What's your point? I was saying that even with increased orb generation 5% stagger per orb feels underwhelming.
A page before there is a math about 5% netting a weak 40% purify for 10 orbs.

[PinDrop]

Well keep in mind that the weaker purify from orbs is also 'free' in terms of brews. If your ISB is about to run out (more likely with the cap and bad management) with a big hit imminent, and you only have one brew, but a few orbs, you can safely add to ISB and use the orbs for the weaker purify, keeping you alive. Or pause with the brew, making those orbs purify even more, and hoping that big hit was one where your co-tank taunts after.

In a vacuum yes the orbs purify is weaker, but in a raiding situation with everything else coming in to play, it's not bad considering it's got no cost.

[Lord Baz]

since ironskin purifies 10% .. if u combo orbs with isb its gonna be decent

[Tech614]

Obviously. What's your point? I was saying that even with increased orb generation 5% stagger per orb feels underwhelming.
A page before there is a math about 5% netting a weak 40% purify for 10 orbs.

"Weak" for 10 orbs huh?

Go look at your logs and tell me how many brews you use on a fight.

Now tell me how much stagger clear that will be over an entire raid fight.

Now factor in that purify is the majority of the DR we actually have and you're getting all that for free.

My point is if you think tons of free DR is "underwhelming" you don't understand the class. If you go for the 2 piece there is no reason to not go for the 4 piece. In fact without the 4 piece the 2 piece is actually the one that is "underwhelming" as it really only helps self sustain in easy/solo content with bored healers.

[ReD-EyeD]

"Weak" for 10 orbs huh?

Go look at your logs and tell me how many brews you use on a fight.

Now tell me how much stagger clear that will be over an entire raid fight.

Now factor in that purify is the majority of the DR we actually have and you're getting all that for free.

My point is if you think tons of free DR is "underwhelming" you don't understand the class. If you go for the 2 piece there is no reason to not go for the 4 piece. In fact without the 4 piece the 2 piece is actually the one that is "underwhelming" as it really only helps self sustain in easy/solo content with bored healers.

Now try playing the class without t19 4p and not abusing BOB with capped ironskin.

Just checked average parses on mythic Elisande (as an averge shit-happening-tank-swapping example with relatively long fight ~6-7 minutes) and it averages 60-70 ironskin and 7-8 purify casts with BLACK OX BREW and T19 abuse. This already nets you only ~5.6 amount worth of purify casts (without Elusive Dance of course) plus about ~3.5 purifies coming from normal orb generation during the fight (not talking about wall hugging) . Now get rid of T19 absolutely insane bonus and start limiting your ironskin usage because of duration nerf and you will get what I'm calling underwhelming.
And once again, I'm absolutely happy with that set, especially after the first iteration with Effuse.

[stross01]

Now try playing the class without t19 4p and not abusing BOB with capped ironskin.

Just checked average parses on mythic Elisande (as an averge shit-happening-tank-swapping example with relatively long fight ~6-7 minutes) and it averages 60-70 ironskin and 7-8 purify casts with BLACK OX BREW and T19 abuse. This already nets you only ~5.6 amount worth of purify casts (without Elusive Dance of course) plus about ~3.5 purifies coming from normal orb generation during the fight (not talking about wall hugging) . Now get rid of T19 absolutely insane bonus and start limiting your ironskin usage because of duration nerf and you will get what I'm calling underwhelming.
And once again, I'm absolutely happy with that set, especially after the first iteration with Effuse.

I'm averaging 80+ brews used without using the 4p, but with Black Ox Brew on Elisande. I'm also the explosion tank, if that matters in your calculations.

The duration cap in no way, changes how often I'd use either brew, though.

[Swalload]

The 4piece will be amazing, it will simply keep our HP up and stagger low at the same time, without really changing the rotation, how is that underwhelming?
If you feel fancy you can keep orbs to heal a big dmg spike or clear lots of stagger, which usually happen at the same time, so again, amazing.

And there's no real reasons to sit on orbs and wait for a perfect moment like we do now, cuz you'll just keep shitting orbs like there's no tomorrow, that bonus is nuts lol, a lot stronger than you make it seem.

[ReD-EyeD]

The duration cap in no way, changes how often I'd use either brew, though.

We already talked about that. It does. You can't even do the standard opener IB-IB-IB-BOB-IB if you are be capped with x3 duration (not even talking about x2).

[stross01]

We already talked about that. It does. You can't even do the standard opener IB-IB-IB-BOB-IB if you are be capped with x3 duration (not even talking about x2).

You CAN do exactly that, if you want. There's nothing stopping you.

I did not agree with you. You may've missed/forgotten about that.

This change has literally zero change on my possible playstyles. You should already be playing like this if you're trying to min/max Brew-stache.

[Tech614]

We already talked about that. It does. You can't even do the standard opener IB-IB-IB-BOB-IB if you are be capped with x3 duration (not even talking about x2).

I didn't realize being "capped" disabled your brew buttons from being usable.

I can't believe you're trying this weak argument again like you did over SD in the main thread.

Good brewmasters now don't waste brew charges.

Good brewmasters with T20 4pc and new cap still won't waste brew charges.

If you're not keeping a brew on CD at all times and BoB(if talented) on CD at all times you're doing it wrong, before or after the cap.

The cap is irrelevant outside of convenience.

[ReD-EyeD]

The cap is irrelevant outside of convenience.

Seriously, I have nothing to say after this statement.

[gramz]

Now try playing the class without t19 4p and not abusing BOB with capped ironskin.

abusing? the hell are you talking about. If playing to the classes highest potential is abusing then sure i guess were abusing a lot of things as a monk. Yes your brew gen will go down a bit without 4pc, but we get more stats as we get higher ilvl so itll avg out a bit.

Have you actually tested the new 4pc out on the PTR? Theres no need to limit brew usage in anyway, if your ISB is between 17-25s, dont hit it, just hit purify instead regardless of your stagger. You'll get more consistent DPS with the SD change and you get orbs which you can use with expel harm (does anyone really wall hug, like ever? maybe on Blackhand..)

Also elisande is probably a bad fight to look at, since theres almost no tank dmg at all (7-8 purifies lol) and most monks are going to be running ablating explosions out the entirety of p2/3.

[ReD-EyeD]

abusing? the hell are you talking about. If playing to the classes highest potential is abusing then sure i guess were abusing a lot of things as a monk. Yes your brew gen will go down a bit without 4pc, but we get more stats as we get higher ilvl so itll avg out a bit.

Abusing as in non-intentional by developers. Pretty much why Blizzard decided to fix/nerf it right now. If someone is running minutes worth of IB that is what I would call abuse of mechanic.

Have you actually tested the new 4pc out on the PTR? Theres no need to limit brew usage in anyway, if your ISB is between 17-25s, dont hit it, just hit purify instead regardless of your stagger. You'll get more consistent DPS with the SD change and you get orbs which you can use with expel harm (does anyone really wall hug, like ever? maybe on Blackhand..)

Yeah, I did. More to it I'm actually running Fast Brewing instead of BOB and limiting my IB duration just to get used to the new possible changes. As I said previously it is actually kinda fun to be honest.

Also elisande is probably a bad fight to look at, since theres almost no tank dmg at all (7-8 purifies lol) and most monks are going to be running ablating explosions out the entirety of p2/3.

I absolutely agree, but at the same it is actually a long fight with a lot of very different stuff happening.

[keqe]

Light brewing is obviously very fitting for these changes. But BoB raw power will still beat it in my opinion. It just takes more finesse than before as you have to time your IsB duration to be low when BoB comes up.

You will also run out of energy with "standard rotation" without BoB filling you up once in a while. Though even small downtime will fix that.

[stross01]

Seriously, I have nothing to say after this statement.

He's irrefutably correct, so that's your best course of action.

Abusing as in non-intentional by developers. Pretty much why Blizzard decided to fix/nerf it right now. If someone is running minutes worth of IB that is what I would call abuse of mechanic.

You're kidding, right? You didn't see this change coming a mile away? You don't think they saw it a mile away half a decade ago in every raid tier since monk has been around? You don't think they could imagine this scenario, given they gave it to the other tanks' active mitigation?

Edit: this exact scenario was a pretty hot topic in the beta.