Are rogues under performing right now?

[Cyanix]

Assassination(Sin) is top-end (aka within top 5 on ST fights), but you have to understand that the other specs Sin competes with, are MILES above Sin in cleave and AOE.
These specs include, but are not limited to, Frost DK, Fury warrior, Demo Lock, Aff Lock, BM Hunter, MM hunter, Havoc DH and Frost mage.
Out of these contestants Frost DK, Fury warrior, Aff Lock, BM Hunter and DH completely destroys Assassination on cleave fights. It's not even funny.

Also, the only reason we are even on the meter in the first place, is Agonizing Poison, which enables good scaling for the spec.
For comparison, my rogue (918 eq ilvl) gains 25 dps pr. mastery point, 18 pr. vers point, 14 pr. crit point and 10 pr. haste point.
A DH of equivalent ilvl gains 30 dps pr. crit point, 26-28 pr. mastery point, and above 20 dps pr. point for both haste and vers.
As you see, DH will (and does) outscale assassination by insanely much.
So far, few changes have been made to DH, meanwhile they are going to attempt removing Sin scaling.

The other rogue specs scale worse than Sin in almost every way. Especially Outlaw (due to passive crit, energy and attack speed from buffs, among other things).

But surely tomb has a soak mechanic, where we can use feint, don't you think?

Incoming people who say Sin is OP, but haven't considered the fact that this spec is quite similar in ST dmg to the aforementioned classes, but COMPLETELY and UTTERLY useless in any kind of cleave scenario; for example mythic+ dungeons. - Ok, useless is a stretch, but compared to these other classes, you might as well just afk on trash packs. I've defaulted to outlaw in m+ for the time being, and it performs quite decent, assuming you get rolls.

So basically, unless this AP replacement is not happening, or if it's a really good nuke ability that does both good ST and AOE dmg, then assassination is probably in the gutter for Tomb of Sargeras.

This.

Single target fight, 'sin dps is competitive.
Add a single add, trash, whatever, and watch other classes pass you by.

My guild is currently working on M Elisande and they'd rather bring DKs, DHs, or whatever melee cleaver than a rogue. I suspect it'll be the same on Guldan.
Bench here i come.

There's currently no interest to bring rogues in current content. Nearly any other melee has give or take similar single target dps, but a shitload more cleave and probably better target switching.

Old combat spec was miles better than anything we have now. I wish Blizzard would stop with this "Yarr, pirate !" nonsense and just restore our good old raiding spec to, say, Cataclysm state, with a TRUE cleave, cooldown reduction mechanisms and basics which dont cost you half of your energy bar...

Amusing detail: our old killing spree, which is now a talent, has been granted to the Demon hunter standard arsenal, in the form of blade dance ><

But surely tomb has a soak mechanic, where we can use feint, don't you think?

At least we dont suck at soaking

[Deleted]

All three rogue specs are middle of the pack currently, so that's not particularly "underperforming" as much as it is just us not having a "top tier" spec right now.

Sub looks promising for Tomb, assuming they're going ahead with current PTR changes.

[shaunika123]

All three rogue specs are middle of the pack currently, so that's not particularly "underperforming" as much as it is just us not having a "top tier" spec right now.

Sub looks promising for Tomb, assuming they're going ahead with current PTR changes.

not being top tier for a pure dps melee, IS underwhelming though

[Marrilaife]

Since rogues were kinda mantadory for Tich & Gul'dan progression be glad they aren't the level of DKs in HFC (hey you got a mass grip that secures your raid spot, why do you need dps lol).

[Deleted]

Rogues are arguably one of the most valuable classes right now in a mythic raid setting, not only do they supply great single target DPS but they've also got a huge amount of personal utility abilities / talents which allows them to perform tasks most other classes can't. I.e. cloak, feint and cheat death which allows them to soak certain mechanics with little to no loss.

[Cyanix]

Since rogues were kinda mantadory for Tich & Gul'dan progression be glad they aren't the level of DKs in HFC (hey you got a mass grip that secures your raid spot, why do you need dps lol).

There's no such thing as a "mandatory rogue".

Hunters can soak the seeker swarm on Tich.

As for Gul'dan, i fail to see your point. If you're referring to the "medic rogue" then you should know that any class with similar mobility could do it as well.

[Naiattavain]

pve rogue seems fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Rogues are arguably one of the most valuable classes right now in a mythic raid setting, not only do they supply great single target DPS but they've also got a huge amount of personal utility abilities / talents which allows them to perform tasks most other classes can't. I.e. cloak, feint and cheat death which allows them to soak certain mechanics with little to no loss.

that were all true in warlords of draenor. legion stripped it all away.

[Xanatu]

We're not the strongest class right now but progression is over, and during progression, we were very strong and very useful. Other classes are just starting to pull ahead of assassination.

[testing123]

There's no such thing as a "mandatory rogue".
Hunters can soak the seeker swarm on Tich.

he was saying they were during progression and yes they were. it's not the soak, it's the debuff. anywhere from 2-5 debuffs doing 200k dps each lasting 40 seconds. rogues could talent and take 30% less damage, toss legs legendary for heal on feint and we could free up a tank for adds.

rogues dont scale as well as others and start to fall off during farm mode. dont play it for the dps, play it because you enjoy it

[elfporn]

pve rogue seems fine.

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that were all true in warlords of draenor. legion stripped it all away.

Its also true in legion. But you wouldnt know right? You quit before legion and never resubbed?

[Deleted]

Rogues are the most energy starved specc which was in a nearly perfect position before legion while right now its just mediocre both in pvp and pve.

[elfporn]

Rogues are the most energy starved specc which was in a nearly perfect position before legion while right now its just mediocre both in pvp and pve.

Everything about what you've said here is incorrect.

None of the specs are energy starved at all. At this point in legion, energy starvation is not an issue at all, though it was early on.

Neither is rogue "mediocre" Though that could be a skill issue.

[Mafic]

A pure DPS class should not be "middle of the pack"

Rogues need help.

[Cyanix]

dont play it for the dps, play it because you enjoy it

That's bullshit and you should know it.

Raid leaders dont give a shit if whether you enjoy a spec/ class or not. All that matters for a dps class is your damage output.
I've been maining a rogue since beta, doing raids/ HL content, and it's always been like this.

Legion is the first time i've seen myself benched.
Not because my parses are bad, not because i suck at mechanics, but because i play a less desirable class.

Oh, yeah, they'll bring me on Tichondrius because my class can soak better. Great deal if i have to watch Elisande/ Gul'dan on streams...

[Marrilaife]

Great deal if i have to watch Elisande/ Gul'dan on streams...

Wtf rogues are amazing for soul soaking because of feint and all the defensives they can use to mitigate the dot, who in the right mind benches rogues on Gul'dan... Most top guilds used at least 1-2 rogues for Gul'dan while they used only token amount of ranged for dropping the fires and the mage spellstealing job.

I see feral druids being benched because they bring very little (especially if you have a druid tank for stampeding roar and most guilds in NH did), I've seen spriests benched because after s2m stopped being a thing they barely shine on anything, I've seen mages having tons of problems at the start of NH when they were still fire and fire was bad ST unless you had BIS leggos, and they didn't have good gear / leggos / artifact traits & relics to insta switch to frost, hunters pre 7.2 were also not in a great spot, but I can't recall a rogue being benched for being a rogue in NH.

Last time I remember a fight that was really not favourable for rogue was mythic Odyn because dot / bleed classes weren't good for bursting the rune adds.

Before Star Augur was nerfed and he was a prime example of a ST fight most world top parses on him were from aff locks, fury warrs, assa rogues, frost dks and frost mages. So assa was one of the top performing specs. 7.2 shook a bit the rankings but I'd still say rogues aren't performing like shit: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11/#boss=1863

And be mindful that some outliers like aff locks and frost mages are facing 7.2.5 changes soon (for example no more perma icy veins on mage).

I don't know what can I say either you don't perform as amazing on your rogue as you're selling yourself, or your guild officers are plain retarded for benching rogues on Gul'dan, top used specs on mythic Gul'dan by the number of parses: 1. Assa Rogue 2. Havoc DH 3. Fury Warr

Top 3 specs on Elisande by the number of parses (= i.e. who gets a raidspot): 1. Assa Rogue 2. Havoc DH 3. Frost Mage
Absolutely zero proof rogues need to be benched on Elisande. If we check which melee specs have low representation on that boss it's Monks, Shamans, Ferals (I don't count Surv as Hunters will nearly always be asked to go ranged esp. on Elisande to interrupt the back adds) and the specs of Rogue, Warr and DK no one plays because everyone plays the other one.

[ymirsson]

That's bullshit and you should know it.

Raid leaders dont give a shit if whether you enjoy a spec/ class or not.

That's a matter of your own goals and which kind of raid you chose to join.

If you raid in a mythic progression guild, surely your RL will have priorities which are different then the goals of a casual, laid back, 1 evening per week raiding group of friends.

[Deleted]

Everything about what you've said here is incorrect.

None of the specs are energy starved at all. At this point in legion, energy starvation is not an issue at all, though it was early on.

Neither is rogue "mediocre" Though that could be a skill issue.

People like you destroyed the class, it's so obvious the the class was nerfed dramatically, starting with stealth and finishing with the energy starvation. Not sure if you actually play the class or trolling.

[ymirsson]

People like you destroyed the class, it's so obvious the the class was nerfed dramatically, starting with stealth and finishing with the energy starvation. Not sure if you actually play the class or trolling.

Where exactly is the rogue energy starved?

[testing123]

That's bullshit and you should know it.

i don't find it bs at all. i'm in an 8/10M guild. dps-wise i fall somewhere between 4 and 13. i constantly tell them sit me anytime so we can get new people in and you know what the officers say

"you do mechanics, we aren't sitting you"

play what you like, play it well (including mechanics, not just dps/hps) and enjoy yourself

[permp]

Assassination(Sin) is top-end (aka within top 5 on ST fights), but you have to understand that the other specs Sin competes with, are MILES above Sin in cleave and AOE.
These specs include, but are not limited to, Frost DK, Fury warrior, Demo Lock, Aff Lock, BM Hunter, MM hunter, Havoc DH and Frost mage.
Out of these contestants Frost DK, Fury warrior, Aff Lock, BM Hunter and DH completely destroys Assassination on cleave fights. It's not even funny.

Also, the only reason we are even on the meter in the first place, is Agonizing Poison, which enables good scaling for the spec.
For comparison, my rogue (918 eq ilvl) gains 25 dps pr. mastery point, 18 pr. vers point, 14 pr. crit point and 10 pr. haste point.
A DH of equivalent ilvl gains 30 dps pr. crit point, 26-28 pr. mastery point, and above 20 dps pr. point for both haste and vers.
As you see, DH will (and does) outscale assassination by insanely much.
So far, few changes have been made to DH, meanwhile they are going to attempt removing Sin scaling.

The other rogue specs scale worse than Sin in almost every way. Especially Outlaw (due to passive crit, energy and attack speed from buffs, among other things).

But surely tomb has a soak mechanic, where we can use feint, don't you think?

Incoming people who say Sin is OP, but haven't considered the fact that this spec is quite similar in ST dmg to the aforementioned classes, but COMPLETELY and UTTERLY useless in any kind of cleave scenario; for example mythic+ dungeons. - Ok, useless is a stretch, but compared to these other classes, you might as well just afk on trash packs. I've defaulted to outlaw in m+ for the time being, and it performs quite decent, assuming you get rolls.

So basically, unless this AP replacement is not happening, or if it's a really good nuke ability that does both good ST and AOE dmg, then assassination is probably in the gutter for Tomb of Sargeras.

Rogues right now are pure garbage only with extreme luck on NBF and PB we can make good parses, on single target we lose to enhancement shaman sometimes.

If they want to make us a PURE ST class so be it but we need to performace at lease 20% higher than other classes otherwise is useless to bring a rogue to hit the boss.