Tinkers In Our Future?

[Teriz]

They're still Orcs, and remnants of the Iron Horde have joined our Horde. Check the garrison shipyard guy, for example.

Yeah, but they're not playable Orcs. Your Orc hero actually begins his adventure way before the Iron Horde invades. Iron Horde Orcs have a completely different history and background than your standard timeline Orcs.

Let's compare:

Many races have their own approaches to tech, but can be condensed into a solid class. Why not? Now take priests, for example. Each race has its unique approach to the light, yet they're still all priests and share the same classes. By that logic, Night Elven priests should be Moon Priestesses (they are, in lore, but not really in actual gameplay), or Undead only Shadow Priests, or... do you see the logic?

The more races involved the richer and more flexible the class is in terms of gameplay, which is what matters in the end. Barring up a wide and rich concept to only Goblins and Gnomes renders the class poorer.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree here. I feel that limiting it to Goblins and Gnomes makes the concept far stronger. When you start putting Tauren, Blood Elves, Humans, Orcs, Worgen, and other races in mechs, it starts getting VERY stupid. It looked cool when Gelbin was piloting a mech because we're used to that character being surrounded by technology. Like so:



Varian or Genn piloting a mech? Not so much.

[Gourmandise]

Oh, look. It's this atrocious idea again.

[Teriz]

I've already provided examples of engineers of other races. That's the lore needed for a tech-class for those races. As for the 'divide' between gnomish and goblin engineering, it's nothing but a petty rivalry in design philosophy than any real divide. So much so you can switch from one to the other at any time, and even technically use both, if it wasn't for gameplay blocking you from doing so.

Profession NPCs that hand out schematics for you to build exploding sheep isn't the lore needed for a tech class.We need something more indicative of an eventual class, like the DKs (Arthas), or DHs (Illidan), or Monks (Chen), or Tinkers (Gelbin).

I'll ask again; Where's the non-Goblin and Gnome lore characters building and piloting mechs into combat? As I said, Sky Golem was craftable back in Mists, there should be at least one prominent non-Goblin or Gnome Mekgineer at this point.

We have engineer NPCs of many different races. That's all we need to say such races can be part of a tech class. If you see a mage NPC you don't go out doubting, lore-wise, that this NPC is able to throw a Pyroblast or not, or any mage ability, are you? If you see a priest NPC, do you doubt if it's able to cast 'resurrection' or any priest ability?

Well no, because we have Mage and Priest lore characters like Velen and Khadgar that show us that Mages are perfectly capable of performing those feats. I have yet to see a human constructing their own type of mech and fighting with it. Gnomes and Goblins both have their race-specific mechs. Where's everyone else's?

Really? the 'monk' class would like to have a word with you. That class was created one-hundred percent outside Warcraft lore. After all, the Celestials didn't exist until MoP. Neither did the monk temple. The WC3 Brewmaster unit? That's not a monk. It has been retroactively made into a monk thanks to Chen Stormstout being made into a monk, and he was a simple Brewmaster before. And it wasn't used as a basis, but as an add-on.

The Brewmaster unit itself was based on martial arts, since Samwise, the creator of the Pandaren was originally going to make it a samurai.

Anyway, yeah, even the Monk class had a basis in Warcraft lore before the class emerged, which is why when Pandaren monks emerged with Brewmaster abilities, no one was scratching their head about. Just like Gnome and Goblin only Tinkers, there's a lore basis for it.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml
http://wow.gamepedia.com/History_of_...en_in_Warcraft

[Ielenia]

Profession NPCs that hand out schematics for you to build exploding sheep isn't the lore needed for a tech class.

This is beyond enough proof that you don't really read other people's arguments and just skim them, looking for buzzwords. Case in point: none of my examples were profession trainers.

Well no, because we have Mage and Priest lore characters like Velen and Khadgar that show us that Mages are perfectly capable of performing those feats. I have yet to see a human constructing their own type of mech and fighting with it.

You really have a hard time wrapping your head around the "proof of concept" concept, don't you? Geez. One more time: engineers of other races exist. Ergo, they are technically capable of building mechs of their own. Ergo, they could part of the tech class race/class combinations.

The Brewmaster unit itself was based on martial arts, since Samwise, the creator of the Pandaren was originally going to make it a samurai.

Except that's not how the unit turned out, is it? There's nothing martial-arts related in it. No spoken lines, no animation, nothing. Also, samurais don't use martial arts like monks do.

As for your links, they're useless. The first one makes not a single mention of monks and martial arts. The second only makes a mention during Pandaria and onwards.

[Teriz]

This is beyond enough proof that you don't really read other people's arguments and just skim them, looking for buzzwords. Case in point: none of my examples were profession trainers.

Where?

You really have a hard time wrapping your head around the "proof of concept" concept, don't you? Geez. One more time: engineers of other races exist. Ergo, they are technically capable of building mechs of their own. Ergo, they could part of the tech class race/class combinations.

Again where?

Except that's not how the unit turned out, is it? There's nothing martial-arts related in it. No spoken lines, no animation, nothing. Also, samurais don't use martial arts like monks do.

As for your links, they're useless. The first one makes not a single mention of monks and martial arts. The second only makes a mention during Pandaria and onwards.

Clearly Blizzard disagreed and created the Monk class largely based on the Pandaren Brewmaster. No point of arguing that point, because you're clearly wrong.

[Kiradyn]

Nobody's arguing that another class is similar. I'm saying that the fantasy of the tinker is already largely covered by engineering as far as most players are concerned, and there isn't anything in game that suggests the idea has any legs; it's all fan driven.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=90716/gelbin-mekkatorque
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=95664/gazlowes-shredder
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=108308/marins-shredder

[Al Gorefiend]

I legit want Tinkers to happen just so these threads end.

OT: yes tinkers will be cool and will probably happen some day since fan favorite and DH happened.

But they'd make sense as a gnome and goblin hero class which will make them very unpopular until all the elf-wanking weebs find a new game to bitch about. So I doubt they'll happen soon.

[Ielenia]

Where?

On the spirit of fairness, looking back, I noticed that one of the three examples I gave was indeed an engineer trainer. Here's the quote as it appears on the post:

We have examples of human, dwarven and forsaken engineers, at the very least.

However, the human engineer link was supposed to be this one instead. Then again, I have no idea why you think that being an engineer trainer somehow disqualifies one from being considered an engineer.

Again where?

See above.

Clearly Blizzard disagreed and created the Monk class largely based on the Pandaren Brewmaster.

"Largely"? The brewmaster WC3 unit is barely 1/4 of the WoW monk class, and that's being generous. Windwalker and Mistweaver didn't originate from it. The Celestials didn't originate from it.

[Teriz]

On the spirit of fairness, looking back, I noticed that one of the three examples I gave was indeed an engineer trainer. Here's the quote as it appears on the post:

However, the human engineer link was supposed to be this one instead. Then again, I have no idea why you think that being an engineer trainer somehow disqualifies one from being considered an engineer.

Keep in mind, I never said there was no human, Dwarven, or Forsaken Engineers. I said there's no evidence of any of those races being able to produce mechanical feats on the level of Goblins or Gnomes. All the other races' technology is far below that of Goblins and Gnomes period (with the possible exception of Draenei). Like I said before, Orcs are living in huts, Humans are living in cottages, and Gnomes and Goblins are living in post-industrial and/or futuristic cities.

Demon Hunters could have been given to all races, but clearly it was made elven exclusive because those 2 races have the only clear lore connection to that concept. The Tinker concept is no different.

"Largely"? The brewmaster WC3 unit is barely 1/4 of the WoW monk class, and that's being generous. Windwalker and Mistweaver didn't originate from it. The Celestials didn't originate from it.

Considering that the entire class has aesthetics from Chen Stormstout, and all three specs have brew drinking abilities, it's pretty clear that its far more than 1/4. Either way, clearly the class was styled after the WC3 unit. Honestly, the entire MoP expansion emerged from the Pandaren Brewmaster unit.

[Ielenia]

Keep in mind, I never said there was no human, Dwarven, or Forsaken Engineers. I said there's no evidence of any of those races being able to produce mechanical feats on the level of Goblins or Gnomes.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." On that same tune as yours, Teriz, we can also say there's no evidence of any of those races not being able to produce mechanical feats on the level of Goblins or Gnomes. You see how your argument doesn't work? Because it can easily defeat itself.

Considering that the entire class has aesthetics from Chen Stormstout, and all three specs have brew drinking abilities, it's pretty clear that its far more than 1/4. Either way, clearly the class was styled after the WC3 unit. Honestly, the entire MoP expansion emerged from the Pandaren Brewmaster unit.

The only one who drinks beer, which is what the Brewmaster WC3 unit used, is the Brewmaster spec. 'Entire class aesthetics'? Oh please. What, exactly, aesthetically speaking, came from the WC3 brewmaster?

[Super Kami Dende]

The only one who drinks beer, which is what the Brewmaster WC3 unit used, is the Brewmaster spec. 'Entire class aesthetics'? Oh please. What, exactly, aesthetically speaking, came from the WC3 brewmaster?

All 3 specs at release drank Brew.

[Teriz]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." On that same tune as yours, Teriz, we can also say there's no evidence of any of those races not being able to produce mechanical feats on the level of Goblins or Gnomes. You see how your argument doesn't work? Because it can easily defeat itself.

The evidence would be the overall tone of the WoW races that have been established for the better part of a decade. Non-Goblin and Gnome races suddenly being able to construct and utilize high technology would be jarring for many players. Like I said earlier, it works for Gnomes and Goblins because its been long established that their societies are high tech, and they've been shown using robots to fight in battle since WC3.

Blizzard tends to not implement classes without some pre-established lore basis.

[Ielenia]

All 3 specs at release drank Brew.

"Brew" is a generic term describing liquids made by combining different elements, and they don't even have to be alcoholic, either. Case in point: potions are brews, as well.

[Teriz]

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=90716/gelbin-mekkatorque
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=95664/gazlowes-shredder
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=108308/marins-shredder

You forgot one;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C78yl3eXQAAIELu.jpg

[Ielenia]

The evidence would be the overall tone of the WoW races that have been established for the better part of a decade. Non-Goblin and Gnome races suddenly being able to construct and utilize high technology would be jarring for many players.

What? Where did that even come from? 'Jarring to players'? First time I ever hearing about this. You don't speak for the players to claim that it would be 'jarring'. On that same token: no, it won't.

Like I said earlier, it works for Gnomes and Goblins because its been long established that their societies are high tech, and they've been shown using robots to fight in battle since WC3.

And it works for all the other races because they can all be engineers as well and by being engineers they are perfectly fully capable of building mechs as well.

Blizzard tends to not implement classes without some pre-established lore basis.

Monks were established. That disproves your point. They had no lore. But a tech class has more than enough, abundant lore to fit a myriad of races.

[Teriz]

What? Where did that even come from? 'Jarring to players'? First time I ever hearing about this. You don't speak for the players to claim that it would be 'jarring'. On that same token: no, it won't.

Uh, yes it would be. Orcs for example are living in huts made of animal skins, and sailing around in wooden ships with sails. Suddenly they're building high-tech robot suits loaded with high tech weaponry? That's quite a shark jump.

And it works for all the other races because they can all be engineers as well and by being engineers they are perfectly fully capable of building mechs as well.

Nope, no evidence for that. In fact, all the evidence from lore points against it.

Monks were established. That disproves your point. They had no lore. But a tech class has more than enough, abundant lore to fit a myriad of races.

Pandaren Monks were established from the Pandaren Brewmaster, which is why the Monk class took its aesthetic, its abilities, even its attire from that unit.

[Super Kami Dende]

"Brew" is a generic term describing liquids made by combining different elements, and they don't even have to be alcoholic, either. Case in point: potions are brews, as well.

Well by your definition of Brewmaster only drinking BEER there was no Beer skills, only ever Brew.

[Ielenia]

Uh, yes it would be. Orcs for example are living in huts made of animal skins, and sailing around in wooden ships with sails. Suddenly they're building high-tech robot suits loaded with high tech weaponry? That's quite a shark jump.

The proverbial 'shark' has been jumped, already, with the Iron Horde. Your point is moot.

Nope, no evidence for that. In fact, all the evidence from lore points against it.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Don't be dishonest.

Pandaren Monks were established from the Pandaren Brewmaster, which is why the Monk class took its aesthetic, its abilities, even its attire from that unit.

The pandaren race got the aesthetics from the Pandaren Brewmaster. Even the attire. Proof of that is that no outfit of the monk even comes close to resembling the attire from the WC3 unit, other than random pandaren NPCs.

- - - Updated - - -

Well by your definition of Brewmaster only drinking BEER there was no Beer skills, only ever Brew.

You're mistaken when I was talking about the WC3 Brewmaster, where everything about it was about drinking beer.

[Darktbs]

And it works for all the other races because they can all be engineers as well and by being engineers they are perfectly fully capable of building mechs as well.

Then all races can be any class.

But thats not how it works, Humans can be Shamans, but, its not in their culture, so even if the oportunity present itself, the majority would not follow this path.It would need a new story telling to make it happen.

Yes, in theory all classes can be Tinkers, but the likehood is that the majority is of races with cultural aproach to techonology, Gnomes and Goblins.

[Ielenia]

Then all races can be any class.

More or less. But...

But thats not how it works, Humans can be Shamans, but, its not in their culture,

I am pretty sure humans cannot be shamans because they lack a connection to nature like Orcs, Dwarves and other shaman races do. Shamanism is not something someone opts to do. I could be wrong about this, though, but I'm pretty sure this is the case.