Intels Skylake-X and Coffee Lake CPUs Discussion

[Evildeffy]

I wonder if they will even state 8700K final clocks today or not

From what I've read... not likely.

still a while to wait then until 8700K game benchmarks

at least its not 2018 or December

Availability might be December/2018... the mobos of Z370 do not get launched till mid-October earliest.
So... yeah.. ramp up time etc.

also - did they manage to fit 4/8 chips into the same 15W TDP previously held by 2/4 chips ? while having lower base clocks, but slightly higher boost clocks on 8650U/8550U ?

They did and didn't.
No longer configurable TDPs but a fixed one, thereby slightly increasing minimum TDP from 9,5 to 15 flat.

So "yes" and "no" at the same time.

[Thunderball]

Show it to me that you can do it without the use of a modded BIOS on any chip that isn't a non-K Skylake chip.
I will admit to assuming (assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups) they disabled it entirely for K chips as well, though I cannot really find any real "Yes it still works" points because of why you would do it when using multipliers is still quicker and safer.

Multimeter still pointless are you're STILL failing to listen, the iGPU still prevents it because it's tied in with it, as well as the rest of the system if you go Haswell and below (PCIex etc.), the memory controller doesn't give a crap as that has multiple dividers and you can often get close to the original rated speed.

The reason remains iGPU primarily and PCIex etc. in older gens, regardless if Kaby Lake's IME just flat out hates you if you try.

Manufacturers started putting external clock generators since Skylake, and I dont have a 7350K/7600K/7700K around. I didnt have any Ivy Bridge/Haswell/Broadwell CPUs with an iGPU, so I have no idea about the possibilities on those. You could overclock your iGPU on Sandy Bridge on all boards (didnt have to be P67 or Z68) that had BIOS parameters available though.

Yes, iGPU bus is clocked through BCLK (which is generated by the only clock generator Intel chipsets provide), but that doesnt mean 1) That you cannot actually disable iGPU to save power (moreover, since Haswell it's disabled automatically) - this was the whole point by the way; 2) You cannot overclock your CPU via BCLK due to iGPU (I'd actually say that PCIe frequency is the biggest limiting factor here), you just need an additional clock generator.

You never used the PCIe frequency on an LGA775 board to OC, you OCed the FSB which for the C2D/C2Q was actually very robust as you could push it to 400 on some chips/buses.
My 990X and Rampage II Extreme can push 220MHz up from 133MHz without issue if I pour in the voltage.

So tell me again why I should overclock my PCIe bus when it's separated from FSB?

To see the effects of what high PCIe frequency (that was generated separately from FSB, which was effectively a northbridge clock) does to your PC. Since the introduction of DMA bus PCIe clock=BCLK.

Cool... you just called a lot of tech reviewers, including Gamer's Nexus, a fanboi... well done.
The original Fury X was pretty efficient as well if it wasn't pushed to high heavens... the Pro Duo is proof of that.
The APUs will follow that route over balls-to-the-wall overclocking.

Those never said Vega was efficient when underclocked, they said it's a lot better than stock, which is very much true. Also they unfortunately dont have an option to put as much stream processors to an APU, so it's likely going to be a lot like Polaris: fast but hot and hungry.

Vdroop doesn't account for ~60% power efficiency difference, it also doesn't lower TDP because it still uses X amount of power so the TDP rating still stands strong.
VRM Heat dissipation doesn't alter CPU power usage, VRM react to the CPU not the other way around.

And I didn't state power efficiency wouldn't improve, I stated that TDP wouldn't change if power draw does not.
The efficiency will not alter the power draw enough to lower TDP to any meaningful value.

Now stop twisting words when it is pretty clear what's written.

Sure, Vdroop has nothing to do with TDP, but so does power draw. That's my only argument here.

Go ahead then... go cool a 7700K at stock settings with that passive 95W cooler, let's see what happens and if it throttles.
If AMD can do it, so can Intel right? Even though the architectures are different etc.

Especially considering the fact that that's a 65W TDP CPU for a rated 95W cooler... passively.
And the Ryzen chips being soldered which Intel doesn't and it being 77 degrees under full stress, how will it react to a CPU that is rated 30W higher but is CONSIDERABLY hotter, you think it won't throttle?

They aren't the same and they aren't comparable, understand that already.

It's gonna be hotter, that's for sure, but I dont think it will throttle, 77C is still 23C to Tjmax. Assuming no power virus of course. You're saying that they arent comparable but compared them 2 lines before. That's weird.

- - - Updated - - -

Z200 series boards are not compatible with upcoming Coffee Lake, earliest availability being mid-October.

These are 6 core SKUs, we knew that 2 weeks ago. Still waiting on the info about the most interesting chips.

[Evildeffy]

Manufacturers started putting external clock generators since Skylake, and I dont have a 7350K/7600K/7700K around. I didnt have any Ivy Bridge/Haswell/Broadwell CPUs with an iGPU, so I have no idea about the possibilities on those. You could overclock your iGPU on Sandy Bridge on all boards (didnt have to be P67 or Z68) that had BIOS parameters available though.

You still can overclock the iGPU if it has it's own Frequency Parameters, but it still is preventing a system overclock if using the BCLK since that's tied into not the actual iGPU frequency but the "architecture" of it which is the CPU's, this causes catastrophic syncing issues among others.
Huge difference... try again and no you still cannot OC Kaby Lake on Z170 with external clock generators.

Yes, iGPU bus is clocked through BCLK (which is generated by the only clock generator Intel chipsets provide), but that doesnt mean 1) That you cannot actually disable iGPU to save power (moreover, since Haswell it's disabled automatically) - this was the whole point by the way; 2) You cannot overclock your CPU via BCLK due to iGPU (I'd actually say that PCIe frequency is the biggest limiting factor here), you just need an additional clock generator.

PCIe bus is more forgiving than the iGPU's, still not connected in current tech and yet again irrelevant.

To see the effects of what high PCIe frequency (that was generated separately from FSB, which was effectively a northbridge clock) does to your PC. Since the introduction of DMA bus PCIe clock=BCLK.

Nope, it was present in iGPU chips only because HEDT chips still could and they offered the same technologies.
Or is the HEDT line some sort of miracle of technology that disobeys all laws of electrical engineering.

PCIe Frequency was never a part of this discussion, it was raised only (by you) as a point of being tied to it and used as something that'll burn out your PC.
In all eventuality the BCLK increase will crash (potentially destroy) your iGPU/CPU before it can reach harmful PCIe speed levels.

Those never said Vega was efficient when underclocked, they said it's a lot better than stock, which is very much true. Also they unfortunately dont have an option to put as much stream processors to an APU, so it's likely going to be a lot like Polaris: fast but hot and hungry.

They actually did as performance difference was minimal going lower with speeds/power savings whilst saved power was very close to 1070s/1080s.
Following the same logic an APU can be extremely efficient as long as you don't try to put a 300W TDP chip in there.
Also don't be pedantic, APUs will never reach (with current technology levels) the performance a dGPU does, so stating "Also they unfortunately dont have an option to put as much stream processors to an APU" is repeating what my statement implied twisted into something to further your own argument.

Sure, Vdroop has nothing to do with TDP, but so does power draw. That's my only argument here.

And your point would be wrong.
Let me ask you this, because apparently I have to dumb it down so you can understand: "Why is it that TDP is rated in Watts?"

I'll give you a hint:
It has something to do with the power draw of specific CPUs as it's tied to the amount of heat generated by said chip/CPU when it's consuming power.
Power draw is a very large part of the TDP rating, stating it's not makes me wonder if you are just trolling this thread now or not?

It's gonna be hotter, that's for sure, but I dont think it will throttle, 77C is still 23C to Tjmax. Assuming no power virus of course. You're saying that they arent comparable but compared them 2 lines before. That's weird.

I honestly still cannot believe you still aren't seeing the point of why I drew that comparison for you.
I drew a stark contrast between a 65W TDP CPU by AMD and 91W TDP CPU by Intel to show you exactly what the TDP ratings are meant for.
And why I SPECIFICALLY made an example earlier of false ratings and possible consequences including that of Turbo clocks.
But it's fine, I've given up with trying to teach you, you will not (or simply do not have the ability to) comprehend it.

These are 6 core SKUs, we knew that 2 weeks ago. Still waiting on the info about the most interesting chips.

Keep hoping for that magical wish for the i3s to be 100/200 series motherboards compatible, it's never been done in Intel's history and they aren't about to start now.
Even with the information being delivered to you by Intel's Press Release you still think otherwise.

Coffee Lake is 300 series, understand that already as well.

[MonsieuRoberts]

I just finished the livestream. What in the fuck was that?! No details, no demos, no benchmarks or comparisons, they didn't even show off the eclipse like they wanted to do.

Fucking lol.

[Life-Binder]

did they state 8700K clocks ?

I guess not

[MonsieuRoberts]

did they state 8700K clocks ?

I guess not

"8th gen CPUs are going to be in plenty of devices! We're rolling them out through the rest of 2017! K bye!"

That's as specific as they got.

[Denpepe]

"8th gen CPUs are going to be in plenty of devices! We're rolling them out through the rest of 2017! K bye!"

That's as specific as they got.

Looks like we got trolled hard by intel and their 8th gen launch.

[kaelleria]

8700k clocks probably won't be announced/leaked until May of 2018 going by past history.

Its also worth noting that intel's CPU generations going forwards multiple architectures and die sizes.
Here's a slightly more digestible article to read in regards to this - https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/13...ore-processors

ps - evil deffy and tball as fun as your last x pages of going after each other were please stop. Tball, you're wrong, get over it.

Edit - forgot Kaby Lake was super delayed

[Life-Binder]

https://www.techpowerup.com/236313/i...boxes-pictured




TPU is claiming 4.7-4.3 boost for 8700K, though Im not sure what their source is

[Kagthul]

8700k clocks probably won't be announced/leaked until May of 2018 going by past history.

Its also worth noting that intel's CPU generations going forwards multiple architectures and die sizes.
Here's a slightly more digestible article to read in regards to this - https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/13...ore-processors

ps - evil deffy and tball as fun as your last x pages of going after each other were please stop. Tball, you're wrong, get over it.

They wont. I put em both on ignore about 2 years ago. Instant 40% increase in forum readability.

On topic, a lttle bummed that Z370 wont be available until early Oct, but... whatever. My current rig is fine, i just want to get started on my new Shift build asap because bored.

Also have no idea why you think the 8700K isnt coming in October with the Z370 boards.

[Life-Binder]

personally if you are in no hurry and do want a 8700K - I would wait to get a Z390 board with the 8700K

1) they will be better (maybe with better VRMs too) and more up to date than Z370 and Q1(Q2) 2018 isnt that far off
2) IMHO there is a good chance Z390 will support future 10nm desktop CPUs like Ice Lake and maybe even Tiger Lake .. Z370 is less likely to do so

[MonsieuRoberts]

Sauce

4.3 stock boost across 6 cores sounds awesome. 4.7 on a single core is still plenty of speed for games as well.

I hope no one here was dumb enough to invest in Kaby Lake X!

[kaelleria]

They wont. I put em both on ignore about 2 years ago. Instant 40% increase in forum readability.

On topic, a lttle bummed that Z370 wont be available until early Oct, but... whatever. My current rig is fine, i just want to get started on my new Shift build asap because bored.

Also have no idea why you think the 8700K isnt coming in October with the Z370 boards.

Yep, my mistake. I forgot that Kaby lake was super delayed.

[Life-Binder]

that table says 4.5 SC rather then 4.7

but the 4.3 6-cores is more important I guess

you should get a good cooler and overclock all cores anyway if you are paying for a 8700K over 8700


looks good from a pure performance PoV, I hope they use ringbus and not mess up the gaming perf in any other way

we want a new "gaming king"

- - - Updated - - -

the 8400 clocks are pretty low, but I hope they make up for that in lower price

the 8600K may displace Ryzen 5 in the ~$200-250 bracket for pure gaming performance

will there be a 8600 (non K) ?

[mrgreenthump]

we want a new "gaming king"

I have a feeling a 7700K may OC higher on 4 cores than 8700K on 6 cores.. So dunno about the gaming part. In everything else though it will probably wipe the floor with the 7700K.

[Kagthul]

personally if you are in no hurry and do want a 8700K - I would wait to get a Z390 board with the 8700K

1) they will be better (maybe with better VRMs too) and more up to date than Z370 and Q1(Q2) 2018 isnt that far off
2) IMHO there is a good chance Z390 will support future 10nm desktop CPUs like Ice Lake and maybe even Tiger Lake .. Z370 is less likely to do so

Not really a concern for me. Ive NEVER actually understood how butt-hurt people get over the "ZOMG INTEL MAEKS ME BUY ANNUDER MOBO" shit, PARTICULARLY given how little of an upgrade variouss CPU generations from Intel are anyway. Virtually NO ONE Is jumping from Skylake to Kaby Lake to Coffee Lake. If you have Skylake, Cannon Lake offers no particular upgrade. If you do workloads that need the extra 2 cores and already have Skylake or better....you should be looking at Ryzen or HEDT (from wither manufacturer), not wasting money on Coffee Lake.

If you build Intel, you have no compelling reasons to upgrade for 4-5 years anyway... which is just as long as AMD is claiming AM4 will last. Hell, i have no ctually compeling reason to upgrade my Z97 4790K. It in no way bottlenecks any games that wouldnt ALSO be bottlenecked by Coffee Lake.

The only reason im doing this upgrade is purely for hobby/bling reasons. If i could add RGB RAM and RGB headers to my current MoBo, i wouldnt even be bothering at all. Unfortunately no one is making DDR3 RGB RAM, so.....

"upgrade" it is.

Z390 isnt going to offer a single feature that matters to me for my use case over Z370. This isnt a productivity computer or daily driver; i use a Mac for those things, and when my 2012 MBP finally becomes too slow for that, itll likely be replaced with a Hackintosh/Ryzentosh barring Apple actually making a headless non-Mac Pro consumer machine that isnt useless. Hell, i dont even need or use USB 3 on my PC, much less things like Thunderbolt (i do mITX anyway, so usually thats not an available feature) or USB-C/3.1.

If it will accept the 8700K, and overclock to 4.5-5.0 ghz stable in the case ive selected, and has either an extra USB 2.0 header (or just one i wont be using) and/or RGB headers, thats all it has to do.

Now, for people who arent me and actually use their PCs for daily driving, productivity, streaming, et al, then waiting for Z390 might be beneficial, if the chipset is going to have any worthwhile features that Z370 wont.

Future compatability with Ice Lake seems both HIGHLY unlikely (Z390 is still going to be Socket 1151v2, 10nm will ASSUREDLY be on a new socket entirely), and pointless. Youre not going to be seriously jumping from Cannonlake to Ice Lake, or the one after, barring an absolute MIRACLE in IPC advancement that Intel hasnt been able to manage in a decade.

[Life-Binder]

^ agreed in general, but I mostly said it since there will be a pretty small time gap this time between Z370 & Z390


but if you dont need it and want 8700K this fall to play on then yeah

[Kagthul]

... did anyone else notice on that chart that the i3 8100 and the 8350K say they support 200-series boards?

BUT all the others are 300 series.

Weird.

And for this new build, ill probably actually be going with the 8600K depending on pricing and Microcenter sales around launch. It may end up like the 4790K in my cirrent rig, where the launch-week sale + mobo combo had the 4790K only 25$ more than the i5, but barring that, hex-core even without HT will do me just fine for gaming over the expected life of the machine.

[Evildeffy]

8700k clocks probably won't be announced/leaked until May of 2018 going by past history.

Its also worth noting that intel's CPU generations going forwards multiple architectures and die sizes.
Here's a slightly more digestible article to read in regards to this - https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/13...ore-processors

ps - evil deffy and tball as fun as your last x pages of going after each other were please stop. Tball, you're wrong, get over it.

Edit - forgot Kaby Lake was super delayed

Meh I should indeed stop, but having someone spew out wrong information annoys me.
Therefore my posts do end up being a bit long in order to correct them, I am passionate (as you've noticed) about Tech.

Also ignore Kagthul .. he's a person who'll call you an idiot if you don't agree with him by stating facts, among other things.
(Example: nVidia's Volta release with GDDR6 or that a PSU fan exhausts air instead of being an intake)

Regardless ... I still regard any information, even if from TPU, as rumours and leaks until final specs are out.
And my belief remains that Intel is going to play shenanigans with TDP values for cooling as I also am still convinced their 8700K will not yield any IPC increase and certainly not the 11% Intel claims in a leak.

Whether that turns out to be true or not is a matter we'll see in a few months.
Either which way, as much as I'd like the 8700K to be Single Core boosting to 4,7GHz and All-Core 4,3GHz along with that IPC uplift .. technically they can reach the frequency, IPC uplift is doubtful since it's still the same uArch as Skylake/Kaby Lake but for reasons explained earlier I doubt it'll be in the 95W power envelope.

And @Life-Binder suggest something I agree with actually, if going Coffee Lake .. best wait for the Cannon Lake PCH instead of the Kaby Lake R PCH.
(Z370 vs. Z390) .. it'll allow the chipset to reach more maturity and possibly indeed be compatible with the next gen chips, whether that's Cannonlake or Ice Lake (still a toss-up at this point because Cannonlake CPUs is likely mobile only at this point).

That said if you need an upgrade now.. you have a plethora of options to go with from 2 companies.

[RuneDK]

when can I upgrade from my 2500k? It's very weird to have a CPU this old still handling it's business. That's the only question I have regarding skylake and coffee lake or any future cpu.