i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[Dwill]

I've been playing FFXIV for 2 years. I've encountered exactly ONE toxic group in all that time. And that was on an EU server. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The percentage of toxic players in FFXIV is VERY VERY low.

I've been playing since release, I don't know why you even brought that point. Speaking of point, you're going to have to come with a better argument than "You're anecdotal evidence is anecdotal so here's my own anecdotal evidence to prove my point."

[Anon56]

Because in MMO's when you are bad you make a pure dps character and bad players have the right to pay to play the game. WoW is an exception.

[Wrecktangle]

Fair points. I know I sound like I don't want them, which isn't exactly true. I am just legitimately concerned with how the trolling, douchebaggy, asshole population will use it if literally EVERYONE has it.

I'd be 100% on board if it was a personal thing, that way trolls couldn't abuse it in random groups and the information was available to high performing groups who would willingly share it amongst themselves.

1) SQEX just needs to punish harassment. Simple as that. And they need to punish people who falsely report people who hurt their feelings.

a) If I say "BRD you're complete fucking shit you cuck. You need to uninstall and go to Home Depot and buy some rope to hang yourself. In this instance, you report me (whole party likely) and I get banned.

b) If I say "BRD, we have to replace you because you're only doing 450 DPS." If the BRD reports me, he should be punished. Obviously not super severe, but to make people not report for stupid shit.

2) A personal parser doesn't do anything because unless you make completely equal circumstances each and every instance/pull/fight, etc. it won't give you good data. I don't want people to keep suggesting this because those that do don't understand the reasoning for seeing the entire party's contribution.

The real question is though should it show everyone's DPS or only your own? I'm on the side of that it should just show yours with no ability to share it. Of course the issue remains that how would they know that they're doing bad? One idea I had is maybe when an instance run is over it would ask you to upload the logs to the lodestone (there would be an option for automatic upload too) so you can go into detail about what you were doing. At the same time you can also see the performance of the rest of your party on the same lodestone page. Of course it would keep the logs of maybe the last 10 instance runs to have some comparisons.

Just food for thought.

See above.

Regarding the logging feature, I think its a fine idea, but I don't think its any better than just having it in the game as is. The problem with it is that the bad player isn't going to look because they don't care. The only way that this player has HOPES to ever change is if they see their stuff real time and failures. If these people don't look up guides online, they're not going to look at logs, thus the only thing you're doing is inconveniencing players like me by forcing me to go off-game to get the data.

Because it leads to a toxic community. I'm happy with the FFXIV community not being toxic like WoW for example.

FF14 is just as toxic as any game. The segregation is just as bad by ilvl/bonus/achievement as it is in other games. In fact, it's arguably worse because bad players can hide behind the lack of a parser and just do whatever they want with no repercussions and healers often sit completely afk in dungeons because they refuse to DPS. At least in other games healers actually have jobs to do and buttons to press.

Ehm, what? It's still super toxic, I had to give up playing mythic+ because of the constant abuse players were giving each other. What in your mind has changed the toxicity within the WoW community? I think it has gotten worse.

Constant abuse? I did M+ everyday and have successfully pugged +18's and higher. Other than one healer who died 5 times on the first dungeon pull I have never seen a toxic environment in M+. It was clear that the healer didn't understand Volcanic and we let him know what we thought. He never said a word except "lol" before leaving.

Your example is clear evidence to what myself and other players have long suspected: People who are against parsers and claim toxicity as a result are likely to be players who love the idea of being able to hide their poor play from others or want to be as deliberately lazy as possible. It's exceptionally likely that you were harassed in M+ because of exceptionally poor performance or laziness". You're welcome to refute my analysis with examples and actual data if you have any.

its called caring about community and moderating toxic behaviour

something what other bigger mmo should learn from FF instead promoting toxicity

Moderating toxic behavior? If they did that they'd punish people who harassed over it, not ban tools.

I mostly do M+ 8-11 with a two friends and mostly randoms and maybe I've ran into 2-3 asshats (mostly a healer trying to rush the tank and a couple runs where a person just leaves randomly). The other group I associate with are only abusive to one another while they're in Discord when they are trying 15-20 M+ runs and make stupid mistakes.

I've found that people that throw around the "toxic" excuse are usually extremely sensitive and can't take criticism (usually being asses themselves).

Truth.

All games are full of idiots?

Also 100% truth.

I never said I was being treated that way. I usually tend to shut up and do my job because it seems that any discussion people have leads to arguments and name calling really fast. It's the same reason why I play with both voice and text off in Overwatch, I don't personally get abused (I probably do now though since I don't read chat) but just seeing how people treat each other is exhausting and offputting.

There are SO many telling details in this statement that further prove my analysis up above:

1) Plays a team PVP game with no voice or chat. That means he refuses to communicate with other players intentionally.
2) Claims he doesn't get abused in OW, except he wouldn't ever know because he has all communications turned off.
3) Based on this data and his above statements it's likely that this person either instalocks Torb/Genji regardless of team comp/map/objective and just runs around willy nilly regardless of the impact the others in the game are forced to deal with as a result.

I've been playing FFXIV for 2 years. I've encountered exactly ONE toxic group in all that time. And that was on an EU server. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The percentage of toxic players in FFXIV is VERY VERY low.

Funny, my experiences are the complete opposite. I've encountered a ton of toxicity. People excluding people, People excluding certain jobs, ilvl segregation, bonus/achievement segregation, AFK healers who rage if you ask them to DPS, DPS who are only able to output sub ARR level DPS despite being decked in full 260 gear, AFK DPS just mashing 1 button over and over, People telling me how to play DRG, despite me doing almost triple his DPS and parsing in the 95%+ percentile, etc.

Now that's not to say I haven't encountered toxicity in other games, because I have, but to imply it isn't widespread in FF14 when in actuality it is just as rampant is beyond silly.

[Katchii]

1) SQEX just needs to punish harassment. Simple as that. And they need to punish people who falsely report people who hurt their feelings.

a) If I say "BRD you're complete fucking shit you cuck. You need to uninstall and go to Home Depot and buy some rope to hang yourself. In this instance, you report me (whole party likely) and I get banned.

b) If I say "BRD, we have to replace you because you're only doing 450 DPS." If the BRD reports me, he should be punished. Obviously not super severe, but to make people not report for stupid shit.

2) A personal parser doesn't do anything because unless you make completely equal circumstances each and every instance/pull/fight, etc. it won't give you good data. I don't want people to keep suggesting this because those that do don't understand the reasoning for seeing the entire party's contribution.

All fair points, but I bolded why exactly I think SE will likely never implement this. Your solution to solving the harassment issue that is likely to ensue as a result of these being implemented is to advocate for SE's GM's to become inundated with reports.

How would you feel about a meter that could be personal and/or public with a toggle? Or have personal information be linkable so others can view it and dissect it?The point is to allow individuals to access the information they might need to improve without broadcasting to the world in an effort to curb hostility, but also, allow the information to be broadcast when they WANT to share it so statics and FC dungeon runs or whatever can help. Basically, I'm trying to come up with a solution that still allows people to get the information they want and share with those who need to have it and reduce the likelihood that someone could be harassed about it.

That said, I wish I could tell sensitive snowflakes to grow a pair and/or some thicker skin and deal with it. But I can't very well tell people to just "get over it" as much as I can tell an asshole to stop being an asshole (I could say it, but it wouldn't be very effective). So the best we can do is try to limit the opportunities assholes have the opportunity to lash out and for snowflakes to get offended.

[Wrecktangle]

Basically, I'm trying to come up with a solution that still allows people to get the information they want and share with those who need to have it and reduce the likelihood that someone could be harassed about it.

That said, I wish I could tell sensitive snowflakes to grow a pair and/or some thicker skin and deal with it. But I can't very well tell people to just "get over it" as much as I can tell an asshole to stop being an asshole (I could say it, but it wouldn't be very effective). So the best we can do is try to limit the opportunities assholes have the opportunity to lash out and for snowflakes to get offended.

Limiting opportunity to create safe spaces is an absolutely frightening thing to be a part of IMO and is exactly what you (and SQEX) are advocating. It literally terrifies me that we as human beings have come this far to be held back by such a pathetic lack of self-confidence/respect that we can't distinguish criticism from harassment.

The even more glaringly obvious issue is that you're casually dismissing that an asshole is an asshole regardless. This person is already likely harassing people in some fashion, adding a tool merely changes the avenue in which he delivers it. I'm not even convinced adding the tool would increase the frequency at which he would harass another player.

That also doesn't take into consideration that your avg DF player does less DPS than I did in ARR patch 2.2 despite almost 150 more ilvl. To me that is a player harassing the party by deliberately wasting our time, but no one has an issue with that person, or the healer AFK'ing because there is no healing to be done. With clear and present data people will be held accountable equally (like tanks and most healers are now) and DPS won't get a free pass.

As far as a toggleable meter goes, it still doesn't solve the problem of player x won't use it unless he's forced. Thus he/she will never improve because they don't have too and can sneak in and be AFK in any content they want and still be rewarded.

[Katchii]

Limiting opportunity to create safe spaces is an absolutely frightening thing to be a part of IMO and is exactly what you (and SQEX) are advocating. It literally terrifies me that we as human beings have come this far to be held back by such a pathetic lack of self-confidence/respect that we can't distinguish criticism from harassment.

The even more glaringly obvious issue is that you're casually dismissing that an asshole is an asshole regardless. This person is already likely harassing people in some fashion, adding a tool merely changes the avenue in which he delivers it. I'm not even convinced adding the tool would increase the frequency at which he would harass another player.

That also doesn't take into consideration that your avg DF player does less DPS than I did in ARR patch 2.2 despite almost 150 more ilvl. To me that is a player harassing the party by deliberately wasting our time, but no one has an issue with that person, or the healer AFK'ing because there is no healing to be done. With clear and present data people will be held accountable equally (like tanks and most healers are now) and DPS won't get a free pass.

As far as a toggleable meter goes, it still doesn't solve the problem of player x won't use it unless he's forced. Thus he/she will never improve because they don't have too and can sneak in and be AFK in any content they want and still be rewarded.

Here's the rub, because I too am as huge a fan of safe spaces as you and wish I could just say grow up, get over it and move on. The game, and the world by extension, is made up of different kinds of people who sometimes like the same thing for different reasons. For the sake of simplicity, I'll categorize people into two categories. Metric/ performance (Objective by nature) driven and experience/ not metric (Subjective by nature) driven. Obviously it's much more nuanced than this, but I think you'll get the idea. Coupled with this is the fact that most people don't take too well to an ideal that they don't necessarily subscribe to being shoved in their face.

Metric/ performance driven people use cold hard facts and numbers to drive decisions. They get enjoyment out of measuring their performance, finding ways to improve their performance, and just being able to know HOW they're performing and then doing everything...or at least enough... to keep performing well.

Experience driven people may or may not care about performance, but they do care about having an enjoyable experience. They just want to play the game (live life) and experience the different things it has to offer and are usually perfectly content with just getting by.

Neither of these people are right or wrong, however as we know, it can difficult for a performance tuned encounter to be cleared by a group of experience driven people for a variety of reasons. I fully expect that someone will live up to a certain level of performance in certain content/ situations. Random Duty Finder groups in outdated and overgeared content is not one of those.

Given the discussion going on around MMO's and the changes both WoW and FFXIV have made, the second category of people is larger than the first. I accept that. I am personally a little bit of both, in the sense that once I know I'm performing at a certain level I'm less worried about my performance than I am about my experience. For me, as long as a group is clearing a dungeon/raid/encounter it's fine regardless of how rough it could get.

To me, the best way I can frame it is this: bringing up someones DPS performance to a person or group that really doesn't care about that kind of thing and has little to no interest is like bringing up religion and/or wanting to talk about Jesus. Even other religious people sometimes find talking openly about it to be somewhat awkward an uncomfortable, and to those who have no interest it can be a little more volatile. To push this analogy a little farther, in the US there's freedom of religion so people have the freedom to believe and practice whatever religion they wish (so long as the practice doesn't break any laws). This is similar to how anyone can purchase and subscribe to the game and are therefore, technically, free to experience it however they wish. It should be obvious that someone of religion A shouldn't go into the house of religion B and start spouting off, or if you want to participate in the activities of religion A you should adhere to certain expectations religion A has. Aside from that, while you're free to do so, it's not usually a great idea for a variety of reasons to go spouting off about your beliefs in a public place though you may get some people interested, the overall effectiveness is incredibly diminished and you're likely to be more successful by simply acting normal with a sign or something that provides some context to who you are and what you're doing and answer questions in a civil manner. This to me is similar to groups in FFXIV. Duty finder = public place, with Extreme/Savage raiding being the "house of worship" for performance driven people and the MSQ and class quests being the closest thing to a "house of worship" for the experience driven people.

I hope I'm not coming across as too preachy, I'm just trying to explain my frame of mind, where I'm coming from, and why I feel the way I do.

[Wrecktangle]

Metric/ performance driven people use cold hard facts and numbers to drive decisions. They get enjoyment out of measuring their performance, finding ways to improve their performance, and just being able to know HOW they're performing and then doing everything...or at least enough... to keep performing well.

Experience driven people may or may not care about performance, but they do care about having an enjoyable experience. They just want to play the game (live life) and experience the different things it has to offer and are usually perfectly content with just getting by.

Neither of these people are right or wrong, however as we know, it can difficult for a performance tuned encounter to be cleared by a group of experience driven people for a variety of reasons. I fully expect that someone will live up to a certain level of performance in certain content/ situations. Random Duty Finder groups in outdated and overgeared content is not one of those.

While it's true you can cut up people into categories the bottom line IMO is that no person should be either extreme. You and I likely agree on this which is why we both fall in the middle. I work in business and a lot of people try to push metrics over feels all the time, and trust me I fight back when the slider gets too far to one direction.

Here's the thing though. Sit down and apply these to real world situations: If you're in a DF dungeon and everyone does 450 DPS and the dungeon takes 56 minutes. They don't care because they're all the same experience based personality (since you claim they are the majority, this is by and far most common outcome).

If I get put in a group with these people, there's no change to current. I see their abysmal DPS, and they see it and don't care. The benefit is that they see mine and might go damn how did you do so much. They might not. The point is in this situation there's no change. I don't harass them, they don't harass me.

If some edgelord wannabe DRK comes in and does 1.5k dps and everyone else is below, he harasses them (he'd likely have harassed them regardless due to dungeon taking forever, you report him and move on. Again no change here. The delivery method of his harassment changes (from length to DPS), but ultimately no change. The advantage of this is maybe these players go damn a tank with worse gear really did just out DPS me maybe I am doing something wrong. Others will continue to be bad, thus again no net change, with a minor chance for improvement.

Do you see what I am saying? Look at real world examples and apply them logically. The parser doesn't add any negativity. What negativity that already exists will still exist, there's not even a guarantee it will completely shift to DPS, it could stay in its existing avenues. The benefits are fairly noticeable though, those who care will use the data, those who don't will be business as usual.

Your point about freedom of religion is irrelevant, because you're only taking into account "their side" and not mine. How do you think i feel having to be subjected to their babling about their right to get carried and do AFK DPS. Just because its DF doesn't mean it belongs to them or that they're entitled to be AFK/terrible lol.

- - - Updated - - -

I dunno. I feel like if you're doing pug content that you're going to clear regardless of who is in the group (Which is what almost everyone does in the first place) then you should probably just get some perspective and not make such an issue out of your daily Tam-Tara run. No matter how strongly you feel about the "principle" of the matter.

Now if you're in a guild/progression group of some sort, or even trying to pug content that's legitimately challenging...then sure, everyone should be on board with analyzing meters in the first place. That's just natural. No reason to be doing that sort of content without analysis tools and aiming for improvement.

The problem is that 99% of people are doing the first type of content and still wanting to complain about everyone's place on DPS meters and it gets ridiculous. Sooner or later, a lot of people just stop having fun with the content because they feel like every little thing is going to result in a fight, even just queuing for a simple daily duty thing.

Who has fun doing trivial dungeons when 1-2 people are AFK or doing less than 600 DPS. I know I don't. There needs to be clarity into a players contributions.

[Katchii]

While it's true you can cut up people into categories the bottom line IMO is that no person should be either extreme. You and I likely agree on this which is why we both fall in the middle. I work in business and a lot of people try to push metrics over feels all the time, and trust me I fight back when the slider gets too far to one direction.

Here's the thing though. Sit down and apply these to real world situations: If you're in a DF dungeon and everyone does 450 DPS and the dungeon takes 56 minutes. They don't care because they're all the same experience based personality (since you claim they are the majority, this is by and far most common outcome).

If I get put in a group with these people, there's no change to current. I see their abysmal DPS, and they see it and don't care. The benefit is that they see mine and might go damn how did you do so much. They might not. The point is in this situation there's no change. I don't harass them, they don't harass me.

If some edgelord wannabe DRK comes in and does 1.5k dps and everyone else is below, he harasses them (he'd likely have harassed them regardless due to dungeon taking forever, you report him and move on. Again no change here. The delivery method of his harassment changes (from length to DPS), but ultimately no change. The advantage of this is maybe these players go damn a tank with worse gear really did just out DPS me maybe I am doing something wrong. Others will continue to be bad, thus again no net change, with a minor chance for improvement.

Do you see what I am saying? Look at real world examples and apply them logically. The parser doesn't add any negativity. What negativity that already exists will still exist, there's not even a guarantee it will completely shift to DPS, it could stay in its existing avenues. The benefits are fairly noticeable though, those who care will use the data, those who don't will be business as usual.

Your point about freedom of religion is irrelevant, because you're only taking into account "their side" and not mine. How do you think i feel having to be subjected to their babling about their right to get carried and do AFK DPS. Just because its DF doesn't mean it belongs to them or that they're entitled to be AFK/terrible lol...

In a situation with a gap as large as the one you're describing you/they wouldn't need a meter to see you were destroying them. You can provide feedback and they can ask questions without having the numbers there. Of course it makes it more apparent, but the meter doesn't NEED to be there for the situation you're describing to happen.

I also never tried to say the parser adds negativity, it just adds a tool assholes can use to be more precise on what they're going to be an asshole about. Obviously it's useful, but as someone said earlier, so are crowbars. I'm a huge advocate of giving everyone access to the tool so they can use it when they need it, but I'm not such an advocate for just flat out giving a tool to everyone regardless because that's when you get a bunch of people who won't know what to do with it, misuse it and cause damage.

The argument I'm hearing suggests that people want it built into the game, meaning everyone would have it and it be on all the time. But as I'm typing this I'm realizing that even if this were the case it could be a toggle-able option with it being "off" as the default.... Honestly the more I think about it, the more it seems that SE controlling the tool makes sense so it can be managed better. Also, as I reflect on my recent experiences in WoW (to which I am still subscribing and playing), I'm having difficulty finding a stand out example of the meter being used in a hugely negative way. So yeah...fuck it... give me the meter. Any problems, if any, will work themselves out over time anyway. I'm still not 100% on board with your reasoning, but regardless of how it's being used, it's available to those who want it and find it the most useful.

In the example I provided I was envisioning you in the metric centric crowd given how hard you're pushing for this completely metric driven tool, if that helps. But it's a moot point now.

[Wrecktangle]

Eh. I mean, a slow dungeon run isn't really fun, but frankly stuff like daily roulette isn't really a barrel of laughs to begin with.

I ran a meter, and I was generally always at the top of it (though if I remember right the popular meter at the time was supposedly a tiny bit inaccurate so you often looked a little higher than you really were in relation to others?) but I just couldn't get angry over someone doing super low DPS in content that was trivial and rather boorish to begin with.

So in the end I just think, "I'm awesome, you're lazy, but I'm literally not even going to remember the run by the time the little hand on the clock has moved on to the next number." So meh. Not gonna let it bother me.

I don't get angry. Frustrated sure. I've said this countless times. I don't mind bad players or bad DPS. I don't mind teaching people raid strategies or helping people get hard EX trial kills they can't or even wiping. The difference is that these people are trying and failing. I want to reward them for putting effort in. As a person who used a parser you can tell the difference between a bad player and someone who is deliberately not trying. I hate to say it, but the amount of people who deliberately don't try is pretty staggering in FF14.

In a situation with a gap as large as the one you're describing you/they wouldn't need a meter to see you were destroying them. You can provide feedback and they can ask questions without having the numbers there. Of course it makes it more apparent, but the meter doesn't NEED to be there for the situation you're describing to happen.

I know that people like to rely on that argument that I can tell what other people are doing intimately, but the fact is no you can't, at least not as a melee DPS. I also turn other players spell effects off.

The argument I'm hearing suggests that people want it built into the game, meaning everyone would have it and it be on all the time. But as I'm typing this I'm realizing that even if this were the case it could be a toggle-able option with it being "off" as the default.... Honestly the more I think about it, the more it seems that SE controlling the tool makes sense so it can be managed better.

Correct that is my intent and the specific reasoning for SQEX sponsored, not 3rd party. I'd argue on as the default though, not off. I want it to be a conscious decision for a player to turn it off so that they can acknowledge in their own mind. I don't care about my performance, nor do I care how my performance affects anyone, but me. Is that wrong of me lol?

Also, as I reflect on my recent experiences in WoW (to which I am still subscribing and playing), I'm having difficulty finding a stand out example of the meter being used in a hugely negative way. So yeah...fuck it... give me the meter. Any problems, if any, will work themselves out over time anyway. I'm still not 100% on board with your reasoning, but regardless of how it's being used, it's available to those who want it and find it the most useful.

Thank you for taking the time to think logically about real world examples, that's all I was trying to do. I have never disagreed that toxicity didn't exist at some point in other games, but most people's examples when pressed were from 7+ years ago so it's pretty clear time does significantly reduce impact/frequency.

It's fine that you don't agree with my reasoning. We all have different reasons for different tolerances/likes/dislikes, etc.

In the example I provided I was envisioning you in the metric centric crowd given how hard you're pushing for this completely metric driven tool, if that helps. But it's a moot point now.

No worries. I understand how I can come across that way sometimes, but rest assured, experiences, feels, and fun are exceptionally important to me, if not the most important piece of gaming to me!

[Wrecktangle]

Well, not to sound like I'm stereotyping an entire community or anything, but "No Effort" is pretty much WHY a lot of people play MMOs. It's a genre that largely lets you go totally zombie-mode and just let the hours slip by.

If they wanted something more than that, they'd be playing something competitive, or something that requires a lot of engagement, or something that really allows for a degree of mastery. SC2, fighting games, Chess, or even some form of PvP within an MMO.

So yeah, sadly you're just going to run into a LOT of those people. While I don't really like it either I can't fault them TOO much when we're in purely farm/grind content. This is what the genre encourages and is built on. You're not wrong to be frustrated by them, but you have to be mindful of the fact that they're going to be everywhere.

On a personal note, that design is precisely why I try to not get too into MMOs anymore. It's too easy to spend an entire evening with your brain half shut down and realize later that you just threw all that time into a hole while your brain atrophied. And most of the time it wasn't even fun, it was just grinding through the same old stuff because you have to. I ended up almost feeling ashamed about it the last time I played one. ><

Yeah I know. I just wish MMO's weren't designed this way. I want to play a game with other people that engages us to think, work together, and experience character growth together. It doesn't need to be ridiculously hard, just engaging enough that you need to be present and aware.

[Advent]

Well, if there was a parser in the game, I'd probably turn it off. For me, it turns the game into a battle of numbers, statistics and competition. I left that behind when I stopped playing WoW. I got tired of the game always being focused on how much dps everyone did, to the point where fun, interesting and extremely unbalanced and amazing spells and abilities were removed in the name of "balance". It made the game less about the experience, and more about the meta-game of numbers and spreadsheets. At the same time, it also caused a community shift in the game. My first raiding guild was deep into T5 when I joined them in 2007. They brought me along because they needed a body, I wasn't a loot-whore, and they genuinely didn't care what gear I had on. They also were pretty lax on damage numbers, and they didn't require you to read up on bosses before you got to them. They valued learning bosses as they progressed. After that guild separated, I never again found a guild quite like that, and slowly over time things shifted from people valuing the experience of a fresh boss, to how quickly it can be dissected and slaughtered. At some point, MMOs changed, but FFXIV is something of a breath of fresh air on that front. I can be somewhat challenged by the raids and trials without looking up boss encounters beforehand (Which often ruins the experience of seeing a new boss in-game). And it doesn't constantly feel like someone is looking over my shoulder at my damage trying to gauge whether or not I'm worthy of playing in what they consider "their group".

[lawow74]

For me it would just end up another annoying bunch of shit people throw out into chat, like their inane skill macros and 'oh look I made an ASCII Moogle tee-hee-hee!' nonsense. Wrecktangle does have a point in saying that people will be harassing assholes regardless of tools, just like people will try to do well or won't in any content. Recent example, I was in a POTD run and one person got downed. Other two party members just went AFK at the active Cairn, didn't lift a finger to help me res them (not that I needed them to, it just made things take longer as a result). Downed person even called them on it and one said 'salt' and the other didn't respond.

I'd be fine with them adding the parser in, long as I could disable it being echoed to me (specifically, not via completely disabling Party chat).