Frost DK Bottom Tier for ToS?

[Deleted]

While this might be true for Heroic. On Mythic you have to move a lot more as frost dk. Which will make the gap between Frost - Unholy bigger.
On heroic you can somewhat cheese mechanics and do pretty good compared to unholy.

Also when most logs are unholy, it makes it a bit easier to parse high on frost.
Right now there are only 119 parses on mythic so far for frost vs 360 for unholy.

I understand people saying frost is fine. But it's really not...

I think that even after 2 weeks, the logs prove "a" point
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#difficulty=4 Heroic
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13# Mythic

[Deleted]

I disagree, its too early. Mythic is only out for 3-4 days and there are only logs for a few bosses so far, the number of available logs is super low. And that is actually what i was trying to say. the very best Players in the top guilds will Switch to UH for Progression because it is slighly ahead, flawing the logs.

Looking at the avg. Performance for all bosses isnt a good idea to judge classes anyway. Look at affi or Balance for e.g. they are only rated so high because of the Aoe padding at mistriss or harjatan. But when it Comes to pure single target affi and Balance doenst look so good.

And with more movement in mythic its even more important as frost to learn the fight and know how and when to utilize BoS.

Frost is probably not fine nor great, but ppl screaming "frost is dead" are also exaggerating.

[Deleted]

Well I know that the logs are biased because of the raid only being open for such a short time.
The fact still remains that the UH tier bonus is a lot stronger then the one for frost.

Being 50-100k behind the other spec is an easy choice for players who have the possibility to swap to unholy

I'm also staying and playing frost so indeed it's not dead.
But knowing the fight is not going to give you extra damage. It will just prevent you from losing it.

[Icedcoffeee]

I think frost (and ret, for similar reasons) are justified in saying that their current state is a problem. Being at the bottom of the meters, while also being the least mobile classes (in a relatively mobility-heavy raid) seems like a major balance problem. That's without even touching on Frost having effectively only one build, which often doesn't suit the fights.

I also don't really buy the log-skewing argument. Non-elite players will also swap, diluting the pool, and you can always just look at higher percentiles (95%, 99%), where I cant imagine the difference in player-skill will be meaningful.

[Bisque]

I think frost (and ret, for similar reasons) are justified in saying that their current state is a problem. Being at the bottom of the meters, while also being the least mobile classes (in a relatively mobility-heavy raid) seems like a major balance problem. That's without even touching on Frost having effectively only one build, which often doesn't suit the fights.

I also don't really buy the log-skewing argument. Non-elite players will also swap, diluting the pool, and you can always just look at higher percentiles (95%, 99%), where I cant imagine the difference in player-skill will be meaningful.

Yes the whole "moving slow as molasses but our dps requires tunneling and not moving for extended periods of time" is a raid balance issue that I am not sure blizz saw coming. I would argue that if obliteration was made just as viable as BOS, it would allow a competitive playstyle when BOS doesn't cut it.

That being said I don't see a redesign or buff/fix to obliteration and glacial advance this tier and probably not for the rest of the expansion. If I had to wager come next expansion Blizz will say something to the effect that "BOS was a success but we just didn't know what to do with Glacial advance and Obliteration etc..." They will acknowledge the shortcomings of GA and obliteration but will not fix it during the legion era.

My guess that if frost gets any buffs or hot fixes its going to be something similar to the Survival buffs, "5% increased damage on all abilities" , "frost strike does X% more" something along those lines.

[Icedcoffeee]

I would argue that if obliteration was made just as viable as BOS, it would allow a competitive playstyle when BOS doesn't cut it . . . That being said I don't see a redesign or buff/fix to obliteration and glacial advance this tier and probably not for the rest of the expansion.

I agree a redesign of Obliteration won't happen this expa, but I could see Glacial Advance getting a substantial buff, along with maybe some of the other talents that don't fit in the typical BoS build. (Shattering Strikes, Avalanche, etc.). If the issue is just parity of damage, then buffing unused abilities would seem like an easy fix. And that's without even touching our overall dps, which ideally would also see some buffs.

The only reason I'm doubtful is that our Tier set so clearly was designed with a BoS build in mind. But I'd take sub-optimal synergy over being just bad for the fights.

[Baddok21]

I am more worried looking down the road that every single FDK is running 2pc 4pc to stay relatively competitive for now (top to bottom is a 11% spread which is actually the best balance for a raid tier so far) but once those 2pc T19 keep falling behind in ilvl (along with CoF which affects Unholy as well) what will the numbers look like.

[Akusa202]

Just nerf BoS a bit but give the rest of frost's abilities a substantial baseline buff. There done. BoS will still probably be the best tier 100 talent, but all the plebs who cry about being forced into BoS can pick other talents and not be useless. And if you have to move off the boss during breath it's not the end of the world. BoS should be a nice cd to have to supplement your damage. Instead of being all of your damage and your entire build centered around it, and while it's on cd doing dogsh1t damage.

And the cd of the talented hrw needs to be brought down to 2 minutes to match BoS so that frost isn't stuck being married to cof for the entire expansion. Hrw is obviously meant to work with BoS, whether that was planned by the devs or not, doesn't matter. No one ever takes it unless they use BoS and making the cds match and allowing frost to use a real trinked in its 2nd slot isn't going to magically make frost op. Seems like the most logical solution to this cof problem.

[RuneDK]

I am more worried looking down the road that every single FDK is running 2pc 4pc to stay relatively competitive for now (top to bottom is a 11% spread which is actually the best balance for a raid tier so far) but once those 2pc T19 keep falling behind in ilvl (along with CoF which affects Unholy as well) what will the numbers look like.

There's a lot of fights where new chest legendary will be used this tier...I don't see 2pc t19 sticking around long and then for the fights we need snap cleave/aoe we'll be complete shit.

[Bisque]

I agree a redesign of Obliteration won't happen this expa, but I could see Glacial Advance getting a substantial buff, along with maybe some of the other talents that don't fit in the typical BoS build. (Shattering Strikes, Avalanche, etc.). If the issue is just parity of damage, then buffing unused abilities would seem like an easy fix. And that's without even touching our overall dps, which ideally would also see some buffs.

The only reason I'm doubtful is that our Tier set so clearly was designed with a BoS build in mind. But I'd take sub-optimal synergy over being just bad for the fights.

Great point, there are a few underutizled fkd talents I would like to see buffed. They did it for Frost scythe, so maybe it is possible for shattering strikes, frozen pulse etc...

In terms of Glacial advance, I wonder how much would they have to buff GA to make it competitive?

Right now the only advantage of GA is that it is ranged. Id rather much hit obliterate and get the throne breaker proc, the rime proc as opposed to hitting GA. I think if blizz allowed GA to hit bosses more than one time (still keep it at one hit for non boss mobs) and buffed it by god knows how much % increase the talent needs, then GA could be a viable choice.

[Nephcyte]

Even the worst spec will have 99% percentile logs, this has nothing to do with class Performance

For one spec 99% could mean 950k dps wehreas another spec 99% is 1.3 mil dps (made up numbers).

I mean this just shows how much dps you can do if you adjust to the fight and use BoS appropriately. Instead of crying "reeeee i have to run away, my bos dropped, those bosses are shit shit for bos, gg blizzard trashed my spec"

[Cosmic Janitor]

I mean this just shows how much dps you can do if you adjust to the fight and use BoS appropriately. Instead of crying "reeeee i have to run away, my bos dropped, those bosses are shit shit for bos, gg blizzard trashed my spec"

Percentile still has nothing to do with overall DPS. Your percentile is spec based.

[Hctaz]

Nice logs, and point proven. People are like screeching rats yelling frost is dead and its a drwning ship. This particular meumaxu gentleman is so deep in a rabbit hole of blaming blizzard for everything that he clearly lost a few brain cells while digging that whole.


I and a friend on mine play frost dk in same raid and its fine. We are getting 85-99 procentile on hc fights. So its pretty much alive and rocking.

Muh boi Syync who got slightly better gear with t20 4p https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...ormscale/syync
And me who is slightly less geard https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...mscale/cyreasa

However i would say that unholy has a slight edge over frost now. Since some of the fights truly are impossible to maintain 60 seconds breath so i just swap to belt. And as many mention with a lot of run away form boss mechanic unholy just seems more reliable.

All that said the difference is between is very little if you know how to play.

What's even funnier is, since then, I've actually gotten world 1 for frost dks on Harjatan mythic. I think I still have it even. I don't normally link epeen like that but the point I was trying to make is that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Frost is not bad BECAUSE of the fights in Tomb. The fights are not bad for us. We just suck tuning wise. You can easily work around it. I went back to Mythic Nighthold this week and was pulling either the same or even slightly worse as I am doing in Tomb. Frost is just.. not very good right now due to tuning. Has nothing to do with the fights though. I just want people to stop whining about the fact that the fights are bad boohoo, ya know? If you complain to Blizzard that the fights are bad then nothing will get changed. If you prove to them that the fights are not the issue and you focus your feedback as "We need buffs pls" then they know you're not a screeching artistic child.

[Raiz]

Which is definitely a good point, but some people may not have gotten those yet....I still don't. My multispec ones are sephuz, prydaz and drapes...sephuz isn't bad for unholy but the other two are ultimately dog shit stat sticks.

Lol just got Soul of the Deathlord...so looks like I can go unholy now...

You could've gone unholy before. UH isn't as legendary dependant as frost was. prydaz and sephuz are still solid choices. Sure it's not the best but it's wasn't as bad as SoN and belt or tovaron.

Either way, Frost is still pretty solid. Just switch to unholy for the fights that aren't frost friendly.

[Nephcyte]

What's even funnier is, since then, I've actually gotten world 1 for frost dks on Harjatan mythic. I think I still have it even. I don't normally link epeen like that but the point I was trying to make is that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Frost is not bad BECAUSE of the fights in Tomb. The fights are not bad for us. We just suck tuning wise. You can easily work around it. I went back to Mythic Nighthold this week and was pulling either the same or even slightly worse as I am doing in Tomb. Frost is just.. not very good right now due to tuning. Has nothing to do with the fights though. I just want people to stop whining about the fact that the fights are bad boohoo, ya know? If you complain to Blizzard that the fights are bad then nothing will get changed. If you prove to them that the fights are not the issue and you focus your feedback as "We need buffs pls" then they know you're not a screeching artistic child.

I disagree If you compare NH and TOS average BoS uptime is gonna be much less on bosses just because of certain mechanics that are unavoidable. There is a point when u just can not be in melee longer then for 30-40sec, so IMO the ring is useless for the most fights due to that. So that makes us weaker then in NH already since that was bis.
When we drop CoF its gonna become even worse i assume. I m sure people are gonna pull decent dps with it bust still.. it would feel ever clunkier

I however agree that blaming the fights is not going to devs change the fights that is never happening.
The best solution imo would be if people just provide constructive feedback that would like someting like "keeping BoS up is much harder then before due to ToS fights, unholy got buffs, can we have alternative build to BoS, like KM buffed?"

This could work since there were a lot of feedback how people hate BoS mechanic and feeling of it while KM alternative did way less dmg.
Iv read so many posts where people describe BoS as ruining around with a fire extinguisher is a stupidest thing in the world(spell design wise) and u get punished so much for fucking it up. I hate wish there was another viable frost build.

P.S. I personally don't mind playing either but would like to try unholy when i get a few legendaires and see how it preforms since it should be much easier/versatile gameplay that doesn't have punishing mechanics like BoS. However the transition is painful. It so sad farming all legendaries for a spec and then suddenly it becomes worse then the other on in every way. Even if the difference isn't that big numbers wise.

[Nangz]

I disagree If you compare NH and TOS average BoS uptime is gonna be much less on bosses just because of certain mechanics that are unavoidable. There is a point when u just can not be in melee longer then for 30-40sec, so IMO the ring is useless for the most fights due to that. So that makes us weaker then in NH already since that was bis.
When we drop CoF its gonna become even worse i assume. I m sure people are gonna pull decent dps with it bust still.. it would feel ever clunkier

This is getting parroted so much and its just wrong. You have roughly the same number of fights where breath can be even slightly difficult and in many cases its actually better for breath than Nightold ever was. Goroth, Harjatan, Mistress, Sisters, Host, and Kiljaeden all just take your breath with virtually no problem. Only 3 fights are even slightly difficult to breath on and those are debatable at best. You've got Inquisition, Maiden and Fallen Avatar.

Inquisition isn't particularly bad. If you manage torment well you will simply run from one boss to another depending on who is doing their aoe. Going down may cause you to lose your aoe. This fight isn't really more difficult to keep your breath going than a fight like Trilliax or Chronomatic Anomaly. Honestly Krosus bridge slams and soaks are more annoying than this fight.

Maiden has 2 moments where you will be out of melee range: when you cross the streams from the random boss ability and during the aoe phase. There is nothing you can do about getting randomly chosen to get screwed during breath. This sucks but its not any different than Guldan's Flames. In fact it might be less impacting if you position yourself well. The AOE phase isn't particularly bad either. You can use your breath here with the damage buff for massive benefit and you only lose a few moments running to the boss.

Fallen Avatar isn't as bad as you might think. His fel nova style aoe only happens every minute by a quick log check and all of the other movement can be done in melee range if you ask your other raiders to give you some space during your cooldown.

Compare these to Elisande and Guldan who frequently cause you to be out of melee range and targets for 20+ seconds while they are on the other side of the room doing their abilities.

Now I do agree that frost could use an alternative spec that is less dependent on Breath but this has little to do with Breath's usability and more to do with people hating the playstyle.

[tweakoli]

BoS is ok as a mechanic but our dps relies way too much on it. I'd rather have it do less and have Oblit/Frost Strike damage be buffed up so our sustained is higher. Due to relic/helm/trait nerfs the only skill/talent that scales with any noticeable difference is Chains of Ice with Chest leggo.

This is failed class design. Why does Unholy get to scale so well with Mastery and Haste, same with fury warriors, enh shamans, etc.
Why out of all our talent rows did they pick the gathering storm row? They could nerf BoS a little and given us ICECAP instead. This would give us the sustained boost we need, probably being able to keep PoS 100 up all the time with t20. Would this make us OP currently, NO, Why? Because our oblits/froststrikes/gathering storm and hblasts hardly scale at all now.

Enh shamans received unasked for talent changes back in 7.1.5 at the start of nighthold due to Blizzard having the view that cookie cutter shouldn't be the only option. What did they do to frost dks. They completely put them into a cookie cutter with the tier set and how the raid was developed. Now due to performing well in Nighthold, they didn't even consider adjusting us for ToS raid. Which now lands us down the bottom with rets.

If they want BoS to stay IT HAS TO BECOME A PET LIKE DARK ARBITER! Runic power spent via frost strikes gives the BoS pet extended time instead of the power boost DA pet gets. This lets us finally use frost strikes more and we get higher chance of getting runes back from frost strikes.

[Hctaz]

I disagree If you compare NH and TOS average BoS uptime is gonna be much less on bosses just because of certain mechanics that are unavoidable. There is a point when u just can not be in melee longer then for 30-40sec, so IMO the ring is useless for the most fights due to that. So that makes us weaker then in NH already since that was bis.
When we drop CoF its gonna become even worse i assume. I m sure people are gonna pull decent dps with it bust still.. it would feel ever clunkier

But the fact of the matter is that, according to current sims with T20 gear, the ring is no longer BiS even if you were to sit on a training dummy that never moved. This means that Breath uptime is less of a factor in whatever we do anyway. The best single target legendary items are the chest and the wrists now on sims that are single target Patchwerk fights (meaning you don't ever move an inch). Having a 26 second Breath is good enough because of the value you get elsewhere. The belt is only very slightly behind chest as well because of the synergy it has with the t20 4pc.

CoF needs to be baseline basically if we aren't going to hate ourselves come Argus, though. I agree with that but that's just different. Having HRW every other Breath is aids.

[Gathed]

the ring is no longer BiS

While I generally agree with that statement, it does have its uses on Kil'jaeden even if its just a QoL thing. Mind you its value is highly dependent on your group dps, if its low you'll get next to no value out of it, if its high BoS and HRW will be desyncd by the end of the first intermission.

CoF needs to be baseline basically if we aren't going to hate ourselves come Argus, though. I agree with that but that's just different. Having HRW every other Breath is aids.

While I do agree it would be nice to have to baseline i highly doubt it'll end up that way, the only reason our current legendary setup is so strong is because of the 4set. Once that's gone i highly suspect we'll go back to ring/x depending on the new tier, although i'd laugh if the new tier 4set is CoF.

[Hctaz]

While I generally agree with that statement, it does have its uses on Kil'jaeden even if its just a QoL thing. Mind you its value is highly dependent on your group dps, if its low you'll get next to no value out of it, if its high BoS and HRW will be desyncd by the end of the first intermission.

You can help that actually. My guild usually gets KJ to intermission right at the one minute mark. I usually still have HRW up for Breath when he lands. How? Howling Blast spam during the intermission phase. Just keep hitting him and praying you get procs. It works pretty well if you can afford it.