Fire in ToS?

[leeb23]

I am leveling my mage and plan on playing it lots. I want to go fire but how is it performing in ToS? I just came back to the game a few days ago.

[Diggster]

I've been playing fire since the start of the expansion, raiding normal and heroic, and doing 13+ M+s more recently. I've found fire to the more than sufficient for all of it. There's some fights in ToS that are really good with fire. I can't say from experience if it's better or worse than frost and arcane as I don't play either of them to the level I play fire, though sims would suggest frost is still ahead.
Overall, fire is certainly fine for normal and heroic, and probably OK for mythic at this point (might be some bosses worth switching to frost for there) but you'd ahve to get a mythic raider to tell you that.

[Tehterokkar]

Both Fire and Frost are performing well in ToS. Arcane is up there too, but suffers from movement and doesn't bring high enough damage for most people to switch around due to the high movement requirements of ToS.

Fire is much more dependent legendaries than Frost though, especially the bracers.

[Xirev]

Sims are just for single target damage, which Frost is still better at. But overall I would say Fire is better, according to warcraftlogs Fire is performing better overall in Tomb of Sargeras on all percentiles on Mythic. Frost performed better in Nighthold because there were a lot of single target fights, whereas Tomb has a fair bit of AoE and cleave fights which Fire is better at. Also the high HP values make Firestarter (level 15 talent) very strong, you basically start bursting with cooldowns once everyone else has run out of their cooldowns while still doing comparable damage due to that talent up to that point, which sets you ahead for the remainder of the fight. I also think Fire is better in M+ due to the AoE capabilities and comparable single target to Frost, Firestarter is again very good against Tyrannical bosses and godlike on Odyn.

[Zenfoldor]

It's apples and oranges and as mentioned a lot on this forum, I think it is best to at least keep up 2 specs. Having optimal fire/frost gear/spec is ideal for ToS.

To answer your question, in Mythic, it is hard to recommend anything but fire. it is preforming exceptionally well across the 75th percentile on most bosses. If it loses to frost, it loses little. If it wins, it wins big.

On heroic, where you can tunnel and the >90% health doesn't last so long, frost pulls ahead on Goroth, maiden and sisters. The rest is nearly a wash or fire wins in my experience, though frost can perform very well on some other bosses like Harjatan and Engine and probably now edges out fire on parses in heroic.

Frost is a great spec for farm, fire is a great spec for progression, because:

1. Fire has 100% passive extra life/survivability, second ice block requires reaction from you the player, plus shimmer heals fire, imho fire is way ahead in survivability. Always the last one alive as fire.
2. Fire has much better movement because of the scorch belt, and the always available GCD wasters such as PF, which allow you to continue nearly optimal rotation while moving at nearly any point.(frost is pretty forgiving itself, and icy floes exist, but so does shimmer). Frost has the advantage of a simpler rotation, but when it's muscle memory, fire less penalty for movement.

Fire has higher legendary requirements. You want the bracers, belt, helm to perform well as a single spec, but the hero ring can be traded out for the first two and still perform okay. Ice can take any legos and do well. Ideally you want the hero ring as frost, but since that hero ring is a shared lego chances are you may already have it(another reason fire lego is hard to get is you have to specifically target them but can get very good frost legos by accident in another spec).

[Deleted]

All 3 specs are perfectly fine now. So go for Fire if you like it

[SFBayGamer]

Fire is going well and will be doing even better with T21 4pc. Almost as if we have come full circle..

[Erolian]

If you want to know which spec is better for Mythic ToS the only correct answer comes from what your specific raid needs you to accomplish. Like if you look at just overall mythic at some random % that tells you what overall damage numbers were done but it doesn't tell you which spec killed the important mob, pushed the boss fast enough for their raid, did tons of irrelevant add damage, etc. There's really nothing wrong with any of the three specs but on some level people want simple or absolute answers where they don't really exist

[Alvito]

Sims are just for single target damage, which Frost is still better at. But overall I would say Fire is better, according to warcraftlogs Fire is performing better overall in Tomb of Sargeras on all percentiles on Mythic. Frost performed better in Nighthold because there were a lot of single target fights, whereas Tomb has a fair bit of AoE and cleave fights which Fire is better at. Also the high HP values make Firestarter (level 15 talent) very strong, you basically start bursting with cooldowns once everyone else has run out of their cooldowns while still doing comparable damage due to that talent up to that point, which sets you ahead for the remainder of the fight. I also think Fire is better in M+ due to the AoE capabilities and comparable single target to Frost, Firestarter is again very good against Tyrannical bosses and godlike on Odyn.

Avatar is the only boss fire consistently comes out on top. Every other fight frost is the clear winner or they leap feog each other over and over based on item level brackets and ranking bracket. KJ is probably the best rxample of this, but as you get into higher gear and parse rankings frost pulls ahead again.

[SherriMayim]

Avatar is the only boss fire consistently comes out on top. Every other fight frost is the clear winner or they leap feog each other over and over based on item level brackets and ranking bracket. KJ is probably the best rxample of this, but as you get into higher gear and parse rankings frost pulls ahead again.

Would you mind showing your work on this? I just looked over the logs and found this for Mythic Parses

Goroth: Frost
Demonic Inquisition: Fire
Harjatan: Fire
Mistress: Fire
Sisters: Frost
Desolate Host: Fire
Maiden: Arcane -> Frost -> Fire
Fallen Avatar: Fire
Kil'Jaden: Frost


So your statement that Avatar is the ONLY boss Fire consistently tops on is kind of misleading.

[mrgreenthump]

If you want to know which spec is better for Mythic ToS the only correct answer comes from what your specific raid needs you to accomplish. Like if you look at just overall mythic at some random % that tells you what overall damage numbers were done but it doesn't tell you which spec killed the important mob, pushed the boss fast enough for their raid, did tons of irrelevant add damage, etc. There's really nothing wrong with any of the three specs but on some level people want simple or absolute answers where they don't really exist

Pretty much this.

Fire though, is sort of overshadowed by Boomkin being extremely good atm and doing much of the same things. But again, this only applies to Mythic, On Normal/heroic anything goes.

[Erolian]

Would you mind showing your work on this? I just looked over the logs and found this for Mythic Parses

Goroth: Frost
Demonic Inquisition: Fire
Harjatan: Fire
Mistress: Fire
Sisters: Frost
Desolate Host: Fire
Maiden: Arcane -> Frost -> Fire
Fallen Avatar: Fire
Kil'Jaden: Frost


So your statement that Avatar is the ONLY boss Fire consistently tops on is kind of misleading.

What's the point of even making this list though? Like Arcane at the highest end is currently better than fire on Harj. DI is kind of busted because of guilds creating ~100 adds for fun. Host top end is arcane atm. Your maiden ranking nearly flips upside down depending on the % you're sorting at etc

[Alvito]

Would you mind showing your work on this? I just looked over the logs and found this for Mythic Parses

Goroth: Frost
Demonic Inquisition: Fire
Harjatan: Fire
Mistress: Fire
Sisters: Frost
Desolate Host: Fire
Maiden: Arcane -> Frost -> Fire
Fallen Avatar: Fire
Kil'Jaden: Frost


So your statement that Avatar is the ONLY boss Fire consistently tops on is kind of misleading.

Check various ranking levels and gear brackets. Avatar will be the only one fire hold top on.

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What's the point of even making this list though? Like Arcane at the highest end is currently better than fire on Harj. DI is kind of busted because of guilds creating ~100 adds for fun. Host top end is arcane atm. Your maiden ranking nearly flips upside down depending on the % you're sorting at etc

Which I mentionef to them and they glossed right over. How and why things happen is extremely important, yet many ignore that or don't understand what yhey are looking at or why they are.

[Xirev]

Check various ranking levels and gear brackets. Avatar will be the only one fire hold top on.

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You must have missed Sassz'ine then, because Fire is completely busted on that fight. Also I'm just comparing Fire to Frost, not Arcane because it isn't the dominant spec in ToS and not that many play it either way.

One thing lower percentile Fire Mages are doing wrong right now is simming for single target or not gearing with enough Mastery, because in this raid that's overall the best way to go.

[Zenfoldor]

Check various ranking levels and gear brackets. Avatar will be the only one fire hold top on.

WRONG /10char

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What's the point of even making this list though? Like Arcane at the highest end is currently better than fire on Harj. DI is kind of busted because of guilds creating ~100 adds for fun. Host top end is arcane atm. Your maiden ranking nearly flips upside down depending on the % you're sorting at etc

WTF are you talking about? 75% mythic is what you look at, you don't change shit up until frost wins.

Honestly, sick of people on this forum devaluing how well fire is doing in mythic. Honestly, its kicking frosts ass up and down the street(with half the parses, half the players) and I'd love to see your proof otherwise, please link with examples.

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When you got to warcraft logs you click the menu dropdown, then by Tomb of Sargeras you click the little squiggly line. What appears is the generally accepted performance levels in mythic for the last 2 weeks(75 percentile).

For quick viewing

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13

Since the motherfucking beginning fire has been ahead on more bosses.

Goroth = frost
DI = fire(by a motherfucking shitload)
Harj = arcane, fire, frost(way behind)
Sizneen = Fire by a shitload, then arcane, then way behind again, hey frost!
Sisters = frost wins barely
desolate = fire, arcane, frost way behind again
maiden = arcane, then frost and fire(almost tied)
avatar = fire by a country mile
kj = not enough parses

So the reason people are hating on fire in mythic is bias against the spec. Period. Sorry guys, get with the times, you are living off info from weeks ago.

If you are going by heroic, where you can tunnel and there aren't nearly as many mechanics, frost does better than it does in mythic but it's still not kicking as much ass as the frost spec only guys want you to believe.

Nobody should be frost only, you should have a spec of frost and fire unless you had a reroll or something. Honestly, no excuse to just run 1 spec anymore. Gimping yourself because of laziness.

[hameli]

Currently my guild is progressing on mythic mistress and the three of us mages play the three specs, overall, all of them are good this tier and you can compete on the logs with any spec, except mistress and avatar, mistress due to constant add waves and avatar due to his massive health pool which benefits firestarter and the legendary belt.

On mistress frost deals the most damage to boss but for more damage overall, if I switched fire the adds will die too early for the tornados so this is why we're running with one fire mage and we need the boss damage from frost since the enrage timer is so tight.

As for legendaries, frost does not depend heavily on legendaries to be performing good, fire on the other hand needs the bracer on progress.

To sum up, this tier the three specs performs extremely well, play the spec you enjoy the most.

[danniegrrl]

According to warcraft logs fire is out performing other specs in Mythic ToS. Which is fantastic for me as fire is my love, for some reason I can't get the hang of frost.

[jayinjersey]

depends on the legos you get

[davesignal]

I feel like the people who endlessly have to check and parrot mythic raiding rankings to see if they're "able" to play a spec are the same sort of people who won't ever actually do mythic.

[Zenfoldor]

I feel like the people who endlessly have to check and parrot mythic raiding rankings to see if they're "able" to play a spec are the same sort of people who won't ever actually do mythic.

The perception in the community is that fire isn't viable. The perception is based off of old information. We are just presenting the facts. Single spec frost mages who log in only for raids and don't want to farm up fire legos are probably salty.

Personally, I would recommend changing specs based on the fight.