Does ToS already killed any guilds?

[Deleted]

Mistress, Avatar and KJ are some of the blandest and most poorly designed encounters ever.

They might be tuned high and some might say my opinion is based on my not having killed them but where the actual difficulty was within the design team must have been designing a fun boss...

Tier 11 and 15 are good examples of how tuning precision and entertainment value coincided.

[Deleted]

Nice jokes you are spewing there mate.
Saying Avatar is still fine for progression especially when the top guilds set the norm of 3-5rogues and the sheep follow and say "this is almost impossible without a certain number of classes".
Learn how human behavior works before you say something like what you said above.

What most of you seem to not understand is that the standart way of killing the boss will be to have at least 4 rogues on top of 2-3 hunters or mages.
Just because that is how the 1st couple of kills have been done.
This is what Jamesmarcus speaks about poaching rogues/guardians left and right from other guilds under yours just so you can make it easy for your self and your guild to kill the boss and forget that this atrocity even made it to live servers.

I'm not even gonna bother with KJ as this is probably the worst designed fight i've seen in my entire WoW life on all difficulty's.

I do agree with TheBurned though on a few levels - mechanically I quite enjoy Fallen Avatar as progression and I think it's pretty straight forward. My issue with it lay within the fact it's not really changed mythically in my eyes with the addition of beams. We were trying 2 rogues on it, and for the most part were going OK for the first 1-2 minutes, but we've just moved to gearing up alt rogues due to a saturation of desired classes so we can have beam groups that aren't reliant on not getting daggered per se.

Think you both have good points with this (if not a little too heated). The fact is though, when you have bosses where classes will make it easier, the further down the progress pool you go the more difficult it is to do fights where those classes will make it easier as your players will be approached and therefore you have to look to new alternatives (other classes or gearing up). You just have to play around that. Avatar I think that it is possible to do this as gear is a heavy nerfer. However I haven't begun to progress KJ yet and therefore won't throw an opinion at it in that way - I just will say that initial looking at the fight and previous points about the fact that 50% of guilds (at best metric - real figures are significantly lower) which killed Gul'dan after 2 months have killed Kil'jaeden. Gear doesn't seem to help on that much.

We look forward to the challenge, but many other guilds probably can't (or won't). We've picked up so many recruits from guilds disbanding at Mistress and Avatar now for this reason. Healthy for us, not healthy for the game at all. Sure, the argument can be that the weak will perish, new guilds are born out, and I support that argument, but again stat wise when you are looking at an over 50% dropoff of guilds to kill the last boss that's not healthy for the game and the long term raiding model IMO.

[ONCHEhap]

The raid is not overall that hard,but there are some brutal difficulty spikes (hello mistress and avatar).so the contrast makes them seem like unbreakable walls...no doubt some have given up

[Queen of Hamsters]

Every tier has been a "guild killer".

[epLe]

The accessibility and availability of raiding has caused a lot of guilds to venture into mythic raids without actually being the correct audience for such content.
This has scattered the few mythic compatible raiders over many guilds for a single server.
Which makes all those guilds struggle, whereas the decent raiders historically would gather in the one single "elite" guild on each server.

This is what makes the guilds struggle and die. A raid instance has never ever killed a guild, only their players got that kind of power.

[theburned]

Nice jokes you are spewing there mate.
Saying Avatar is still fine for progression especially when the top guilds set the norm of 3-5rogues and the sheep follow and say "this is almost impossible without a certain number of classes".
Learn how human behavior works before you say something like what you said above.

What most of you seem to not understand is that the standart way of killing the boss will be to have at least 4 rogues on top of 2-3 hunters or mages.
Just because that is how the 1st couple of kills have been done.
This is what Jamesmarcus speaks about poaching rogues/guardians left and right from other guilds under yours just so you can make it easy for your self and your guild to kill the boss and forget that this atrocity even made it to live servers.

We always killed FA with 3 rogues, never seen the need for more, 5 was maybe necessary before the dark mark nerf, but method was the only guild it was relevant for.
Same with KJ don't need more than 3 rogues there anymore either, you did when it was 8-10 small armageddons to soak. KJ was a horrible fight for a lot of reasons though. Hard for all the wrong reasons.

[ONCHEhap]

let's see your cutting edge then

If you intended to look like an idiot,you succeeded,congratulations

[Ebalina]

We always killed FA with 3 rogues, never seen the need for more, 5 was maybe necessary before the dark mark nerf, but method was the only guild it was relevant for.
Same with KJ don't need more than 3 rogues there anymore either, you did when it was 8-10 small armageddons to soak. KJ was a horrible fight for a lot of reasons though. Hard for all the wrong reasons.

And while what you say is true, the norm is set long before you started doing progress on the boss.
Having more rogues will make the fight more simple and easy to progress regardless if you do not need them.
And again i'm gonna say what said early'er it is human nature and people will seek the path of least resistance therefor many will be convinced that fight is unkill-able or significantly harder with less then 4/5 rogues.

[theburned]

And while what you say is true, the norm is set long before you started doing progress on the boss.
Having more rogues will make the fight more simple and easy to progress regardless if you do not need them.
And again i'm gonna say what said early'er it is human nature and people will seek the path of least resistance therefor many will be convinced that fight is unkill-able or significantly harder with less then 4/5 rogues.

How can you say that with absolutely no clue on when we killed the boss?
You can say method sat the norm for how maiden was killed, but Ive yet to see anyone stupid enough to copy their strat for that boss.

[theburned]

If you intended to look like an idiot,you succeeded,congratulations

Every boss is easy if your only information about the boss is someone else's kill vid.

[ONCHEhap]

why? you can't say a raid isn't hard if you haven't done it lol, I don't think I'm the one who looks like an idiot here

I'm talking about the difficulty curve of the raid.
The raid overall isn't hard as over half of the bosses are piss easy.just because Mistress,avatar and KJ are very hard doesn't mean the raid is overall hard.can't call a raid hard for 3 bosses.
I would know,I'm 8/9 currently,and yes,Mistress,Avatar and KJ are some of the hardest bosses we had.but everything between goroth and host,and maiden are very easy for mythic bosses

[theburned]

I'm talking about the difficulty curve of the raid.
The raid overall isn't hard as over half of the bosses are piss easy.just because Mistress,avatar and KJ are very hard doesn't mean the raid is overall hard.can't call a raid hard for 3 bosses.
I would know,I'm 8/9 currently,and yes,Mistress,Avatar and KJ are some of the hardest bosses we had.but everything between goroth and host,and maiden are very easy for mythic bosses

The 3 hardest bosses is generally what defines a raid, in NH we had star augur elisande and guldan all around 200 pulls each.
Misstress was about 50-60, avatar 400, KJ 650. Maiden was a few pulls aswell, but most 1-2 min pulls, so hard to take the boss seriously.

[ONCHEhap]

The 3 hardest bosses is generally what defines a raid, in NH we had star augur elisande and guldan all around 200 pulls each.
Misstress was about 50-60, avatar 400, KJ 650. Maiden was a few pulls aswell, but most 1-2 min pulls, so hard to take the boss seriously.

depends,while NH had 3 hard bosses,the "less hard" bosses weren't necessarily easy.Botanist and Tichondrius were out of reach of most mythic raiding guilds as well.

In ToS everyone can kill bosses up to host is what I mean

[Gaaz]

More than a few guilds died on our server (Howling Fiord). Of course, there are still many hardcore raiding guilds that farm ToS on a weekly basis (Exorsus being one of them), but thankfully, our guild decided to avoid total burnout and suspended raiding until next content. It is not like we are or were in a race for world's 1st or anything. Many people were on the edge of losing it, and heated exchanges started to become much more common. Basically, unless you do this professionally or a hard core enthusiast, there is no reason to submerge yourself in so much stress.

[Deleted]

depends,while NH had 3 hard bosses,the "less hard" bosses weren't necessarily easy.Botanist and Tichondrius were out of reach of most mythic raiding guilds as well.

In ToS everyone can kill bosses up to host is what I mean

You put maiden in the easy boss category, but you say that botanist and tichondrius were somewhat harder. It's just not true at all. Just look at the wipe counter of those bosses for top guilds compared to their Maiden wipe counter (hell even sisters...). Ticho and bota got trashed under 10 pulls by top guilds and were definitely not harder than Maiden

[ONCHEhap]

You put maiden in the easy boss category, but you say that botanist and tichondrius were somewhat harder. It's just not true at all. Just look at the wipe counter of those bosses for top guilds compared to their Maiden wipe counter (hell even sisters...). Ticho and bota got trashed under 10 pulls by top guilds and were definitely not harder than Maiden

You mean the maiden that blizzard kept toying with to try to force the hammers to oneshot tanks until they just gave up and let top guilds kill her?

[TOM_RUS]

Yes, it killed a lot of guilds, probably more that any other raid ever. ToS tuning is way to high on all bosses, especially healing requirements. Also soak mechanics sucks, especially when you have them on every single boss...
I've heard next raid also has a lot of soak mechanics, blizz how about you go and soak then yourself?

[Kuruption]

Yes, it killed a lot of guilds, probably more that any other raid ever.?

I swear I've heard this before.

[kooz]

mistress is gonna be nerfed within couple weeks

- - - Updated - - -

also try to gear up for lfr kj lol

[Marrilaife]

Heroic guilds and below, I wouldn't know, but Legion overall has been a big plot how to gut mythic raiding, so ToS is nothing new. Extra grinds in a volume unmatched since TBC, diminished rewards by left and right titanforging in hc and everywhere else, no mount from mythic KJ, locking people to specs through artifact and legendaries and then nerfing those specs or designing bosses around playing different classes and specs people didn't have prepared, godawful tank balance (you were not supposed to play blood dk in mythic EN, you're not supposed to play prot Pala in mythic TOS etc.), pretty horrible rollercoaster of what spec you should play as a dps in mythic raiding if your class has more than 1 while it's much harder to swap unlike previous expansions due to relics, legendaries and AP, m+ nolifing for extremely good rewards being a thing for big portion of the expansion, and so forth. That made lots of people go away from mythic raiding, stopped being a test of skill and became playing Blizz roulette of fotm specs, fotm legendaries and whatnot.

My guild has big trouble recruiting suitable dps because only half the classes / specs are desired and people looking for guilds are the "wrong" classes / specs no one wants no matter how skilled they are.