Armor ignore now worthwhile PvE/PvP stat (Ret).

[Dugarax]

When is before? Before 3.0 or before the DS change to physical damage?

ArP and haste should be compared for a few reasons:

A) They both can be gemmed for
B) They effect different abilities
ArP effects white swings, crusader strikes, and divine storm
Haste effects white swings and frequency of seal procs from white swings
C) They both scale with the same stats (AP and crit)

Before = in this thread. I posted some maths that explained how its value is now really low compared to other stats.

For itemization cost, 1 ArPR = 1 Str.

For efficiency, 1 ArPR = ~0.12 Str.

That is for warriors, but ArPR is even better for warriors so it would be worth even less for paladins.

[Dugarax]

Itemization cost of 1 Haste = 1 ArP = 2Ap = 1 non-sta Stat

Haste/Arp rating for 1% ~ 16

Using previous avg Ret damage distribution against 40% reduction (most mobs):

1 Haste gives ~ +0.0278% dps
1 ArP gives ~ +0.0254% dps

0.5 haste + 0.5 ArP gives ~ 0.0282%

What do you mean by "Previous" ? Sources ?

I can't see how 1 ArPR can be anywhere near 1 haste in dps gain right now.

Also, you can't give a specific % of increase in dps if you don't specify the target's armor, because ArPR removes a % of the target's armor.

[Gomexus]

Pretty sure that after the 3.03 patch (today) that the numbers for SoB procs and Judgements will derease pretty drastically...but we will have a new dmg source from Righteous Vengeance...

Considering RV is a dot applied after getting a crit with DS/Judgement then it seems that ArP would increase the damage of RV, White, CS, DS...which is alot of damage sources compared to haste only affecting White, and Seal Procs.

I'm sure Haste will still be very good...but ArP is sure looking much much better.

With this build being the closest we'll be to our "lvl 71+" state I'd suggest running numbers after the changes.

[Dugarax]

I think there always seems to be the comparison between haste and armor pen because most gear is going to be set up with

xx Str
xx Crit
xx Hit, Haste or Armor pen

as much of it is currently in TBC. People will not, or I should say should not (because someone will) sacrifice Str/Crit/Hit for haste or armor pen but once a desirable amount of hit is reached you are going to be choosing between haste and armor pen on gear. I believe that is why there always seems to be a lot of discussion on Haste vs. Armor pen. Like I said earlier I will be sticking with haste because as you pointed out, it scales with everything. I have never been a huge fan of armor pen myself and now that it is this percentage based stat, I like it less.

You're right, sorry.

Pretty sure that after the 3.03 patch (today) that the numbers for SoB procs and Judgements will derease pretty drastically...but we will have a new dmg source from Righteous Vengeance...

Considering RV is a dot applied after getting a crit with DS/Judgement then it seems that ArP would increase the damage of RV, White, CS, DS...which is alot of damage sources compared to haste only affecting White, and Seal Procs.

I'm sure Haste will still be very good...but ArP is sure looking much much better.

With this build being the closest we'll be to our "lvl 71+" state I'd suggest running numbers after the changes.

ArP does not look better, it looksactually MUCH worse. Let me quote myself, because it seems no one read the post at all.

WARNING: This is a post exclusively concerning Armor Penetration Rating in PvE

Warriors used to stack ArP (Armor Penetration) before the patch until the cap, which was 1050 with Madness of the Betrayer and 1350 without it (assuming the said warrior had executioner on one of his weapons). The principal interest of ArP was that it scaled with itself making it a better stat when you had more. 7 ArP was considered equivalent to 1 str for warriors with low ArP, and was worth more as you gained more ArP.

Now everything is converted to a rating, meaning it will ignore the target's armor by a % AFTER the debuffs and buffs (sunder armor, expose armor, faerie fire, executioner, etc.). Assuming the numbers in this thread are correct, the value of ArP would be as follows:

1% * 1350 (Boss' armor after debuffs) = 13.5 ArP

13.5 ArP = 15.83 ArPR (Armor Penetration Rating)

13.5 / 15.83 = 0.85

Each point of ArPR is equivalent to 0.85 ArP. The itemization cost spent on ArPR is almost the same as Str, so on 2 items with the same budget spent on Str and ArPR, 1 Str point = 1 ArPR point.

Since 7ArP was generally considered equivalent to 1 Str before the patch and now that 1ArPR is worth 0.85 ArP on a fully debuffed boss, we can conclude that ArPR is a significantly inferior stat compared to other stats like Str, Crit and Haste. Its value however increases with a target's armor, and level 80 bosses are expected to have much more armor than level 70 bosses, so this might change.

To make ArPR marginally equivalent to Str (make 1 ArPR = ~7 ArP), the target needs at least 11,000 armor, 11,081 be exact, to have 1 ArPR be worth exactly 7 ArP (see calculations below).
1% * 11000 = 110
110 / 15.83 = 6.95

I understand these maths are more accurate for warriors, but the value of ArPR can't be much different for pallies, and it can only go down compared to warriors since warriors' damage is 100% physical and not paladins' damage.

I may have made minor or major mistakes, but this is what logic and maths lead me to right now.

TLDR; Armor Penetration Rating is currently an significantly inferior stat compared to Str, Crit and Haste in PvE, on a fully debuffed boss.

Edited a few times for clarity/confusing sentences.

[zarondd]

What do you mean by "Previous" ? Sources ?

I can't see how 1 ArPR can be anywhere near 1 haste in dps gain right now.

Also, you can't give a specific % of increase in dps if you don't specify the target's armor, because ArPR removes a % of the target's armor.

Check near the beginning of the post where some people posted their %damage spreads.

I clearly see 40% reduction for average mobs in my post.
In case your wondering, Armor pen is now a rating and lowers reduction by 1% for 16 rating at 70.

[Dugarax]

Check near the beginning of the post where some people posted their %damage spreads.

I clearly see 40% reduction for average mobs in my post.
In case your wondering, Armor pen is now a rating and lowers reduction by 1% for 16 rating at 70.

Yeah I said it in my math post. Came to the conclusion that on a fully debuffed boss at level 70, 1 Armor Penetration Rating gives 0.85 Armor Penetration. So ArP is now 7 times less effective than before in PvE on a fully debuffed boss.

You need to hit a target with at least 11k armor for it to be worth it, and now bosses only have 6.2k/7.7k armor BEFORE any debuff, and ArPR is applied AFTER debuffs.

Here is a link to my previous post with maths, because people wont look at it and see my logic if it's not on the last page..

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.ph...9554#msg409554

[zarondd]

Your right about the value of ArP, I thought they had changed it to -1% of %reduction (ie half %reduction at 50% ArP) per 16 rating, but it seems to be a rather weak -1% armor per 16 rating instead.

Mistake on my part.

It was written against 40% reduction (mob average) in my post.
Around 7500 armor (Player formula).
10% ArP would give +0.6% relative dps to 0 ArP
20% ArP would give +2.6% relative dps to 0 ArP
30% ArP would give +4.68% relative dps to 0 ArP
40% ArP would give +6.8% relative dps to 0 ArP

[Dugarax]

Your right about the value of ArP, I thought they had changed it to -1% of %reduction (ie half %reduction at 50% ArP) per 16 rating, but it seems to be a rather weak -1% armor per 16 rating instead.

Mistake on my part.

It was written against 40% reduction (mob average) in my post.
Around 7500 armor (Player formula).
10% ArP would give +0.6% relative dps to 0 ArP
20% ArP would give +2.6% relative dps to 0 ArP
30% ArP would give +4.68% relative dps to 0 ArP
40% ArP would give +6.8% relative dps to 0 ArP

Seems about right. But 40% ArP = 633.2 ArPRating lol.

I hope it will be fixed / get better at level 80

BBL :P

[zarondd]

I thought it was a different formula hence why I had mistakenly thought it was useful.

Unless the formula changes for armor, equal level itemized ArP will be equally bad at all levels.

Except for twinks.