Armor (nerf?)

[Xalick]

So I was just testing out some numbers a moment ago in regards to armor levels now vs. what I believe they will be after patch 3.0.8.

From what I determined, I am going to lose about 5.5k armor from the change to Bear armor, and it not being multiplied by trinkets, rings, necklaces, and staves. My calculations were assuming that the bear form multiplier is calculated AFTER the new 66% increased armor contribution from SoTF (which is actually a best case scenario).

Now I am not in uber gear. I have primarily blues from 75-80 instances and some crafted gear. I did focus on having armor on all of my rings, necklace, and stave for tanking. However, I do not have any trinkets with armor on them.

I really hope my calculations were done wrong ... because I'm sure losing more than 5k armor is going to hurt, big time. I have already been told by a friend that Druids aren't really viable tanks in Heroics at present without really good gear. He may have been wrong ... but now I am certainly worried.

[TerryBogard]

you should still have more HP and stam than any other tanks. Also stacking dodge/agi gems will definately help your mitigation. Remember warriors still take damage while blocking.

[EtherMan]

So I was just testing out some numbers a moment ago in regards to armor levels now vs. what I believe they will be after patch 3.0.8.

From what I determined, I am going to lose about 5.5k armor from the change to Bear armor, and it not being multiplied by trinkets, rings, necklaces, and staves. My calculations were assuming that the bear form multiplier is calculated AFTER the new 66% increased armor contribution from SoTF (which is actually a best case scenario).

Now I am not in uber gear. I have primarily blues from 75-80 instances and some crafted gear. I did focus on having armor on all of my rings, necklace, and stave for tanking. However, I do not have any trinkets with armor on them.

I really hope my calculations were done wrong ... because I'm sure losing more than 5k armor is going to hurt, big time. I have already been told by a friend that Druids aren't really viable tanks in Heroics at present without really good gear. He may have been wrong ... but now I am certainly worried.

It is because of your gearchoice that you are seeing such a hit in reduced armor. Also SoTF increase the same armor as bearform so which order they are applied in, does not matter. There's still time before patch to gather up other gear, as has been said before, overall, this is a nerf only to those with the high armor trinks and stuff. This unlocks a whole world of trinkets and rings for you to explore. Take advantage of it.

Druid tanks ARE very much viable in heroics, even more so than the other tanking classes because you dont even have a critcap to reach. A druid that just dinged 80 can tank heroics with a healer thats actually ready for it, you cant make up for the loss of a healer that isnt though. Plate tanks NEED that defencecap (or atleast go very close to it), before they are viable for heroics.

[deathsclaw]

What is suggested for Rings/Neck/Trinkets/Weapons without armor?

I feel that I'm really going to be hurting when this actually happens. I have 33k Armor today and 29k HP Self buffed. I do have the staff of trickery in my bank and figured I would probably use that post change. But for rings/trinkets/necks I have not really found anything nice. I have the badge tank neck with Stam/Strength but I don't use it currently. All the rings/trinkets i have seen have a lot lower stam than these current armored rings but also include AGI.

I know this change is coming but i just feel like there are no real good options out there. The rings and necks with STAM/AGI are a lot lower than thoughts with armor today. I would feel different if they were closer in stats but that just isn't the case.

In the end I just don't understand the need for the change. Obtaining the tanking items are not hard to do, they are sill in game and the goal of all other tanks. Why the need to change this aspect? I can see it's going to really hurt the viability of me being the MT for our guild and I'm going to just have to go roll another toon to tank with I suppose and toss in the towel here.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...h&n=Deathsclaw

Armor from items : 5885
Armor from Rings/Trinkets/Weapons/Neck : 2538

Today Total Armor : 32182
Under New Model : 28902 = 10% Reduction (Not Changing Any Gear)

[Logabas]

What is suggested for Rings/Neck/Trinkets/Weapons without armor?

I feel that I'm really going to be hurting when this actually happens. I have 33k Armor today and 29k HP Self buffed. I do have the staff of trickery in my bank and figured I would probably use that post change. But for rings/trinkets/necks I have not really found anything nice. I have the badge tank neck with Stam/Strength but I don't use it currently. All the rings/trinkets i have seen have a lot lower stam than these current armored rings but also include AGI.

I know this change is coming but i just feel like there are no real good options out there. The rings and necks with STAM/AGI are a lot lower than thoughts with armor today. I would feel different if they were closer in stats but that just isn't the case.

In the end I just don't understand the need for the change. Obtaining the tanking items are not hard to do, they are sill in game and the goal of all other tanks. Why the need to change this aspect? I can see it's going to really hurt the viability of me being the MT for our guild and I'm going to just have to go roll another toon to tank with I suppose and toss in the towel here.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...h&n=Deathsclaw

Armor from items : 5885
Armor from Rings/Trinkets/Weapons/Neck : 2538

Today Total Armor : 32182
Under New Model : 28902 = 10% Reduction (Not Changing Any Gear)

While I can't say anything about the reasons behind the change, your change in armor value will result in a ~2% net reduction in damage mitigation through armor. While its a nerf, its not as monumental as people first think.

On a side note, your amory link currently has kitty gear. On that note, you might want to check your expertise as I believe you're over the cap. (I don't play a druid, but I'm pretty sure the cap is the same for all melee)

[Xalick]

I believe he is over the dodge cap, but not the parry one. So for tanking, he is not wasting any of it.

[dwillpower]

If you do not have the armor trinkets I can almost promise u its a buff. I have armor on rings, neck, staff. and sitting at 31k armor unbuffed. Logged onto PTR and im sitting at 33k armor. My recommendation for you and all tanking druids is move your character to PTR. This is a major change and you should be prepared for it. Seems like all without the armor trinkets end up near the same or a buff.

PTR is a million times better than trying to do flakey math on it. I for once am happy with this change because of the options right now it opens for me for rings and everything else. I also dont have to hope for armor trinket drops.

[Zealic]

It will be available on live realm

[Dooudad]

you should still have more HP and stam than any other tanks. Also stacking dodge/agi gems will definately help your mitigation. Remember warriors still take damage while blocking.

we can consider warrior block to be equivilent to our potp 12 % dammage redux, this comes after armor is taken out of the hit, so a 10k hit, - say 60% redux due to armor.  thats 4k left -12% of 4k is 3520.  Its not perfictly = to block but its not sposta be.  The main diff now is that warriors will take hits just as hard as you do, they will also have perry and miss rateings we dont get advantage of due to lack of parry and lack of defence on items because were forced to take dps gear instead of tanking gear.  heck im at the point of viewing bears being based on furry warriors more then based upon protection warriors now, our dps is up there) prot warrior in = gear to me gets 1k dps, i get upwords of 1800 dps in a 10 man raid in bear form the whole time.

oh and i have only 2x rings and the 10 man naxx 400 something armor cloak, estimated loss of armor in patch 1400, my rings are both level 70 violet eye exalted ring and the 60 badge ring from sunwell badges... yeah those with out the high end gear will still lose armor its a lie for bliz to say other wise, if you have a neck ring trinket cloak or weapon with armor on it, your likely going to lose.

[Degrador]

yeah those with out the high end gear will still lose armor its a lie for bliz to say other wise, if you have a neck ring trinket cloak or weapon with armor on it, your likely going to lose.

They did say well in advance that they were going to nerf those items for feral druids - I guess their point was that druids with those items were rather OP while those without them were rather UP. This balances it quite well - a good change IMO.

[deathsclaw]

Well i receed my complaint. I just copied my toon to the PTR and my armor isn't really changed maybe by 2-300 tops. So I'm happy and the gear I have worked hard to obtain isn't for not.

Check it out for yourself. The change is active in the PTR. Be sure to spec you talents first they are refunded too you when you first log in to the PTR.

[Natgul]

With my alt char: On live: 18.880 AF in bear form (no armor on trinket-staff-ring-neck)
On live server: 29500 AF...

This patch is a huge physical boost.

Now druid is stil the best HP pool (My DK, in Blood Tank, equivalent equip 30k hp with MotW) - Druid 32,7k

DK Armor, after patch 26.500 AF - 15% (Frost & Blood) magical mitigation + IBF (BS 20% for 10 sec if unholy, but less hp & + 5% mag. mitig.)

Druid have a flat -12% physical & magical mitigation

Druid gain more HP from Stamina Buff (50% buff from WordStamina-Priest+Pally-King buff) - DK gain +10% from all sources (best from lock imp)

DK have -5,6% hit/crit from def ---- 21% dodge + 16% parry (im using defence runeforge proc) + 10% parry from bladed armor

Druid have barskin every minute, frost/blood have a big useful button.

Now i have a problem....who choose for tanking???

[Xalick]

Excellent Deathsclaw. I believe you and I are about even, you probably have a slight edge up, in terms of the amount of Armor we have from special items. So I am very happy to hear that I should end up around the same Armor post patch as I am now.

[Yeran]

Its obviously a nerf to bear-tanks, even more so as the current raid-items are anything but hard to get, so its a fair assumption quite a few druids got them, including me and the other feral druid in our guild.

The argument you can get other rings now isnt all that great because in most cases the armor-rings are still the best ones you can get (yes, after the nerf). This is because there are many tanking stats you cant use at all (blockvalue/rating, parry) or get very small benefit of (defence).

That being said im not cursing blizzard for that nerf, as they hopefully did their calculations properly and feral druids will be competitive in ulduar.
And while my tank-gear wont change much (maybe not at all) and I will lose a good chunk of armor (as I got all the armor-items) im 2nd OT in our 25naxx runs so im doing damage in cat-equip most of time. With my armor buffed in cat-equip it will be much easier to switch between roles midfight if something unexpected happens.

Of course this will be another argument against druid MTs. Im ok with that as I enjoy the offtank role, but its not what blizzard said and I guess some ferals wont be happy about this.

[Dooudad]

They did say well in advance that they were going to nerf those items for feral druids - I guess their point was that druids with those items were rather OP while those without them were rather UP. This balances it quite well - a good change IMO.

Yes they have said these canges are comeing, but i had the dang rings im still useing at 80 sence freaking bc. cuse theres no non armor rings that offer as much medigation as them, because they wont give us damm midigation were the medigation tank and were loseing all of it and its stupid. i know of 2 druid tanks who are still tanks includenig my self. all the others did roll other classes. to say that they wont make changes that cause people to quit their druid they arnt actually then looking at the number of druids with more then 20 points in feral at 80 then. many druid tanks on almost every server that went into sunwell and tanked are now freaking boomkins no offence to boomkins but they shouldnt have to have become caster dps if they would stop lieing about them not makeing changes that make people hate to play their spec and open their damned eyes and see they have done that. its all well and good to keep us from geting the cap at t7 but to nerf us to lower armor then plate tanks and still not give us any form of avoidance other then dodge when the other tanks have both dodge and perry oh and they get miss cuse their armor has FREAKING DEFFENCE cuse they dont share their armor with stupid rogues! they are doing to feral druids what they did to enhancement shamans and when they finnally changed something to make them viable once moer it was 18 months after they nerfed their class/spec to hell, i dont want to wait 18 months to be a viable tank as a druid at 90 when i was one at 70.

[Kolarian]

Yes they have said these canges are comeing, but i had the dang rings im still useing at 80 sence freaking bc. cuse theres no non armor rings that offer as much medigation as them, because they wont give us damm midigation were the medigation tank and were loseing all of it and its stupid. i know of 2 druid tanks who are still tanks includenig my self. all the others did roll other classes. to say that they wont make changes that cause people to quit their druid they arnt actually then looking at the number of druids with more then 20 points in feral at 80 then. many druid tanks on almost every server that went into sunwell and tanked are now freaking boomkins no offence to boomkins but they shouldnt have to have become caster dps if they would stop lieing about them not makeing changes that make people hate to play their spec and open their damned eyes and see they have done that. its all well and good to keep us from geting the cap at t7 but to nerf us to lower armor then plate tanks and still not give us any form of avoidance other then dodge when the other tanks have both dodge and perry oh and they get miss cuse their armor has FREAKING DEFFENCE cuse they dont share their armor with stupid rogues! they are doing to feral druids what they did to enhancement shamans and when they finnally changed something to make them viable once moer it was 18 months after they nerfed their class/spec to hell, i dont want to wait 18 months to be a viable tank as a druid at 90 when i was one at 70.

Ok, first L2Spell.

then, remember that you're getting a huge bump in Armor from the new SotF. And if you're using 70 rings, you're doin' it wrong at this point. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784 and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37591 are easy enough to get, and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43250 is now under 200gold on Lothar US.

Also, the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42643 becomes an AMAZING ring after this change, something no Bear would have ever given up armor for before.

And a few more things: Defense isn't wasted for us. It gives us slightly more dodge than it gives other tanks, and due to the miss chance, it eventually picks up after DR kills dodge for us (right at the end of current content).

[Natgul]

Like the LIVE Druid position, the next patch comes with a big bost, not a nerf, L2count:

You have now armor formula = ALL ITEM AF X 1,1 x 4,7 X 1,02 = 5,27

An example: 350 neck+463 ring + 480 ring + 348 back+ 700 staff + 1.400 (2 trinket) + 3.500 leather item = 35.720,06

After patch the multipler will be: Cloth+Leather AF X 1,1 X 4,7 X 1,02 x 1,66 = 8,75 + Accessories AF

So, Acc. = 350+463+480+700+1400 = 3.393
Wearable Item = 3.500 + 348 = 3.848

Result: Total AF = 3.393 + (3.848*8,75) = 33.670,00 + 3.393 = 37.063,00

Why you still talk about nerf?

[Dooudad]

Like the LIVE Druid position, the next patch comes with a big bost, not a nerf, L2count:

You have now armor formula = ALL ITEM AF X 1,1 x 4,7 X 1,02 = 5,27

An example: 350 neck+463 ring + 480 ring + 348 back+ 700 staff + 1.400 (2 trinket) + 3.500 leather item = 35.720,06

After patch the multipler will be: Cloth+Leather AF X 1,1 X 4,7 X 1,02 x 1,66 = 8,75 + Accessories AF

So, Acc. = 350+463+480+700+1400 = 3.393
Wearable Item = 3.500 + 348 = 3.848

Result: Total AF = 3.393 + (3.848*8,75) = 33.670,00 + 3.393 = 37.063,00

Why you still talk about nerf?

where are you geting 8.75% modifyer? even with full armor bonus tallents and meta gem the best mod your geting in game is 370% from db, 10% from thick hide, 66% from SotF and 2% added in from the meta after everything ele. thats 446% x your leather + Cloak's base armor, not 8.75. so try more of your 3,848 armor x 5.46 = 21,010 armor. then add yoru estamated accesries of 3,393 = 24403. and finnaly the meta 2% to all of it so another x 1.02 = 24891. so in the end your roughly 12k off.

look at it this way if you dont see the nerf. BC any armor (not enchanted) x 5.1 + your base armor from agi = your easy 32k+ armor. Hell you didnt even need the suppozed hard to get ultra rare drops you could get the 35k needed to be caped on a raid boss with freaking rings and 1 armor trinket. Now. we have lost the ultra new neck armors, the 2x trinkets the 2x rings and the weapon armors. oh and just for laughs over 50% of the armor on a high armor cloak wont be given a mod. so we have gone from a possible full modd of x5.1 on 15 items, to a at best 5.48% mod on 8.5 items. (really its less then 8.5 cuse the cloaks base armor is less then 1/2 of the armor it would of been if you counted in the bonus armor) that means almost 1/2 of the gear that would of been giveing you a bonus in bear form WONT. To say thats not a nerf is to be drinking some funky punch from blizzard.

now to kolarian my comments on defence were that we no longer have any gear with it. i do think being crit cap from tallents is a great thing, i however think not alowing us to get decent defence from either said tallent or armor is giveing us a lower avoidance rate then we should have. DR on dodge is bad enough with out haveing the 2.6% miss rate we were required to get from defence in BC. that wasnt the best avoidance for a druid in game but in the stat of not geting dodge for crap any more them refuseing to give us parry and our form of block (potp) not ever going to scale as we get gear (it actually get less useful as you get gear) we need the avoidance some where sence our armor is now going to be laughable. we can stack all the stam we want, a = gear warrior is now more mana efficent for a raid to bring. after patch they will have the same armor as us, they will have much higher medigation due to block scaleing much better then potp, an their parry + dodge will typically be at or higher then our dodge. especcaly if you count in the fact that they have a 5.6% miss rate due to needing defence to get to the cap. flat out bliz saying many times these changes wernt ment to make people reroll their char to another class or spec is a freaking joke, their chances since the first nerf of lowering db armor to a 370% mod instead of 400% mod caused a lot of the tanking druids to lose hope. And the changes sence of makeing our class even more nerfed have not just upset many druids its made many of them not even level their druid past 70 as they see no point in being 4th class in a game with only 4 classes filling the role.

[Natgul]

U play a Druid or you play a Mage?

66% Armor Contribution New Talent = 1,66 Multiplier
2% Meta Bonus = 1,02
10% Thick Hide = 1,1
370% DB = 4,7 Multiplier CAUSE is Increased, so, your armor + 3,7 times your armor (yours is 1 + 3,7 = 4,7)

if u talk about 348 AD Cloak, it's easy, insert a 150 AF

3500+150 = 3650 x 8,75 = 31.937,5 + Acc. (Best value is 3.393) = 35.330,50
I'm on PTR, copy your char an try.

If player are not using AF Accessories, boosting STAMINA & Dodge/Agi, the AF improvement with this patch is HUGE.

[Dooudad]

U play a Druid or you play a Mage?

66% Armor Contribution New Talent = 1,66 Multiplier
2% Meta Bonus = 1,02
10% Thick Hide = 1,1
370% DB = 4,7 Multiplier CAUSE is Increased, so, your armor + 3,7 times your armor (yours is 1 + 3,7 = 4,7)

if u talk about 348 AD Cloak, it's easy, insert a 150 AF

3500+150 = 3650 x 8,75 = 31.937,5 + Acc. (Best value is 3.393) = 35.330,50
I'm on PTR, copy your char an try.

If player are not using AF Accessories, boosting STAMINA & Dodge/Agi, the AF improvement with this patch is HUGE.

#1 i dont play a mage.

#2 you may be on the ptr and you may have that much armor still and grats to you.  but i still dont get your math, your geting 8.75 mod for a 370% 10% 66% and 2%.  you admit you get your x mod by going 3.7 + 1 x armor to = a 370% increse in the armor, i get that but you are doing 8.75 according to both of your post.  where are you geting all of this % mod.  i add up all the % and i see 370%+10%+66%+2% that = a grand total of 448%, where you get 8.75 i dont understand.

the onlything i can think of is your are multiplying the %'s by them selves before working on the formula for your armor.  so your doing 370%x10%x66%x2% = the mod to go to your armor. which does = 8.75%.  This however is not what they said they would give us.  I will admit if this backwords way of doing math is their intention then fine ill TAKE it.  AS that would be a buff to us and not a nerf. 

as you said your on the ptr, my charractor i copyed to there the day of patch launch keep saying it cant log on so sorry as to copying a char there been there tryed that lock up up loading screen.  which is funny sence i dont typically even have lag in 25 man naxx on sunday nights when every one in my guild is complaning about lag.

but to any one who has done a lot of math (hell i do math for fun and breaking down game mechanics is fun to me) you would add the %'s before you multiply them for all %'s involved in that step, it is just the best way to get a non inflated number. which is the way i was doing it.

you wouldnt go and get 8.75 that way you would do the original 4.46 tell you got the base armor then add in the 1.02 after you had factored in base armorXmod + accesorie armor (still undetermoned if the 2% meta would affect armor gained by agi, roughly 2k-2.5k depending on your agi)

doing it the way you are (and your saying they are) is a way in which any one at a glance would say seems wrong, as it inflates the numbers.  But as i said if they are truely doing it that way then ill take it, hell ill sell my old rings and not switch them on any more over the agi/str + sta rings i have.

(edit) ill leave my old post here im not scaird of being incorrect, i was able to finnally get into the test realm (apparently my name was invalid and had to enter a new one) and my armor value did go up, even with the 70 rings on (which will soon as this hits live be replaced by agi/expertese and str/def+dodge rings that had a lot more sta on them. thank you for puting up with me while i still find the math wonky if thats how they want to do it ill gladly take the 5k increse in armor.