Do Ret Paladins need to be nerfed?

[Zarcob]

I haven't come remotely close to killing anyone save maybe a mage or non-soul link warlock in a single HoJ since people started getting 700+ resilience. The reason for the MS request is because with that same HoJ stun I cannot even drop a priest, shaman or druid healer to 75% without getting super lucky on every hit. After which the healer can immediately top themselves off again.

I know it's been said before but it really is just a product of your gear. If you don't want to be killed instantly then you can't get lots of +damage enchants and gems, you have to sacrifice some and pick up stam and resilience instead.

As for kiting, it's already been pointed out that every class that would want to kite the paladin already has a means to remove Hand of Freedom except druids. It's a non-issue.


I saw a post on the PvP forums a while back that asked an interesting question: How do you want to die?

Rather than getting mad that you die within a single HoJ, how would you prefer a ret paladin kill you? Assume for the moment that I've already won the fight. Pretend I outplayed you, or if you prefer, that I have better gear or I jumped you before you were ready. How do [b]you want a ret paladin to kill you?

Because currently, they have many more ways they can't kill you than ways they can.

They can't kill you by wearing you down because they don't have MS, they don't have mana drains and they don't even have a snare or gap closer. Most importantly, they will run oom if they're forced to use any utility.

They can't kill with a stun lock in the traditional rogue sense because they only have two cooldowns, repent and HoJ, to use. They have no interrupts or disarms, no way to lock out opponents. Not to mention that the community hates being stun locked anyway.

They can't reliably cc a healer and kill you like a mage, warlock, or even a druid can.

All they can do is bubble and hope everything crits. Annoying? To be sure. Almost as annoying as BM hunters immunity to snare and stun, but it's also ALL they can do. They have no other dangerous tactics. No lethal combinations besides lucky crits. No game-changing utility. No mechanics to block out or negate healers. LoH cannot be used in the arena while BoP and Bubble are both on long cooldowns. It's been shown many times before that classes that have shorter cooldowns with slightly less powerful abilities are far more powerful. Their single greatest utility is cleanse, which at the moment is only particularly useful against polymorph and strangulate.

So yes, at the moment, Death by Crit Chain is a stupid way to die, but paladins have been asking for the class to be redesigned since LONG before wotlk and blizzard has made at best, half-hearted attempts. The class is still burdened with ridiculously long cooldowns as far as arena goes and a very narrow set of abilities.

Basically every 1v1 fight can be decided before it begins. "If bubble is up, I win. If not, you win." Thrilling pvp.

Death by HoJ stun and Crit is the only way the class works at the moment. If they remove that without redesigning the functionality of the spec, then what you're effectively asking for is the complete removal of all Ret paladins from the game. Amusing, but hardly ideal and not likely to happen. No, if you want a solution, you have to join the rest of the ret paladins back at the drawing board.

[Segar]

/sigh,

at least this post is becoming abit like a dissuction<sp I know>.

Before I retried my pally and game. PVP and PVE will always be two kind of beasts.
Right now as is The Devos for Wow is working on PVP, which means things are not gonna be
balanced for PVE. That being said.

The Retri spec has always been laughed at until launch of WOTLK, where the tree got reworkd and loved.
But now that its time to look at it from a pvp point of veiw, there will be alot of changes done.

The abilities that a retri pally has when it comes is this:

HOF, Bubble, Bubble for team mate, sacrifice, two stuns (resistable), and heals.
This is from my own point of view of it.

People complain about "instant 20k shot" when it comes to realitime. ITS A FREAKING MACRO
that gets used with it under HOJ. You got trinkets use them. otherwise keep that pally distant until
he stuns someone else or uses it. dont like it try to go for stun immunity<if it still exsist> or XX%
off when it lands.

Dps will be bursty but you know what, Resiliance is what nearly killed the retri spec in pvp why
because the spec needed to have high crit to burst. Now since its gonna be 900+ resiliance as a
standard thats gonna go down. CCs people if you have them USE THE HELL OUT OF THEM.
Why becuase it might be the "I WIN" button for you or your group. you figure it out.

Bubbles, Plate, Heals, <and now introducing> stuns. Samething as PVE just stuns were added because
its pvp. Before you go and PVP in BG/Arena remember the following.

Bubbles are dispellable.

Plate was never an issue, it was Resiliance. Armor maybe high but its pretty much worthless
in pvp. <Am I wrong? Someone correct me on it>

Heals Are Inturptable<sp?> silence is also good. why because Nearly everything we have IS ONE school of
magic, HOLY.

So why all the QQing? simple. Facerolling, bubble kill, stun kill. <<<take your pick.
Every class will Always have something that will take someone down. All it takes is just the time
to find that special set of moves to do it to it. ~.o

Now Stop QQing, crying, calling for nerfs and get out there and bring home some Ratings with that
Epic PVP armor. Because in THIS game: Its ither you have it, or you havent learned it.


P.S QQ = Lazy @$$ >

[soaps]

With this, I will say I will not post in this thread after this, as the predictable wrath of people who are afraid of change, and like to be overpowered, will rage on with illogical responses. I will read them however, and myself and my friends will be amused by your bickering.

It's about time. It's clear resilence is only going to make the paladin stronger when the BG's Arena's go on. Best Defense and High Burst combined with resilence with a barely noticeable and exploitable weakness is going to ruin things.

AND I see threads of them asking for Mortal Strike. Absolutely ridiculous.

I can deal with the bubble. I can deal with the partial bubble. I can deal with lay on hands. I can deal with the fact they can heal themselves. I can deal with the fact that Holy Damage is largely unmitigated and has no resists from anything, at all. I can even deal with the fact that they have the capability of killing a target from 100-0, within a single hammer of justice stun.

What I cannot deal with is a paladin with the freedom of mobility, to go anywhere without the fear of being snared/rooted, and removing stuns from the talent Divine Purpose. This is wrong, and is very unballanced. Paladins NEED this weakness. It's the only thing that will bring them down to a balanced level without touching anything else about a Ret Paladin.

Why is it Paladins can kill targets (even resilenced targets currently) within a single hammer of justice stun (or right after) AND they can remove stuns afflicted upon them? Or be granted immunity of movement impairing effects?

Please consider this alternative, to nerfing Retribution Paladins.

Well since you mentioned LoH, Im assuming you almost never do Arenas because LoH has more then 10 min CD therefore making it unusable. So now that we know we are talking about World PVP and BG's its safe to assume that your fighting pallies who are either part of pre-mades (entirely possible and most likely plausible) and are therefore buffed to the best possible ability (kings/might/horn of winter etc etc)

Now, the reasons pallies dont need to be nerfed, with RESILIANCE, like you say, it doesn't affect JUST paladins, but however it effects all classes positivly and negatively. So what your saying is if a Pally with capped Resil comes at you, you have no chance of winning. Keep in mind his bubble may be on CD (check his buffs for Forberance) if you dont see it, then obviously you should expect that he is saving it and should try to make adjustments based on what class you play to prepare for it. Hand of Freedom is something pallies have always had, L2Kite, or dispell/spell steal/CC (almost every class has something that will either force the buff off or make it ineffective)

Now, to help you better understand why Pallies would want a healing debuff on one of their attacks. Pallies depend very heavily on their burst damage. All of the pallies skills have a 6second + cooldown (any they can use to burst your ass down) So if you can survive the initial burst of a paladin, the chances that you have to beat them have now just tripled. Triple those chances again if they landed no crits (omg Resiliance helps other classes its a miracle) so the pally just effectivly did, maybe 1.2k with CS, maybe another 1.2k with DS, and maybe 1.4k with Judgement... and 900ish with White (random numbers, my pally aint 80 yet) On any level 80 player even the clothies, thats about what 5k health not quite. So thats a grand total of (based on avg) 1/3rd a clothies health (full 80 dungeon blues) Wow, Pallies have to wait for 2 more sets of CD to kill them. Or use clutch skills like LoH or Divine Shield.

Now, those are reason the pallies would want a healing debuff A lot of those RNG's I mentioned above would cause anyone to want to see a change in their class (those ppl are just qqing cuz their gear sucks bawls), consider this, only a few classes in this game can not heal themselves. You wanna know what they are. Rogues, Mages, and Hunters. Every other class can heal. And since Rogues have evasion, blind, vanish, They might not even need to heal (nulling the reduced healing effect), Hunters can force a change target and use deterrance, then sprint away (pallies have virtually no ranged, so kite away ppls), and Mages can Blink out of pallies range and then hit invisiblity and vanish...

So in short, any class that can survive a pallies initial burst (assuming they instantly stun you, and you can trinket their repent once you try to heal) now has a massive upper hand on pallies. The longer it takes for a person to heal (50% healing debuff = 2X longer to heal) the better a chance a pally would have to win.

In the grand scheme of things, its really quite a simple request.

[R0my312]

Well to all of you guys who can't drop a retri in arena (you fail btw) you dont have to ask whether or not we should be nerfed...because we are GETTING nerfed. On top of that, the one buff we WERE getting, just got reverted, so it's not happening.
Oh and as for you pvp junkies out there, don't forget that pve is kind of the main point of the game, and further nerfing ret dmg in arena's is gonna bone us in pve, which would be completely unfair, so stop qq-ing, i'm drowning in tears here, and l2pvp