Will Blizz ever make frost viable??

[Shatteryoface]

Hey guys I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on if you think blizz will ever make the frost tree a viable spec for pve. I just recently respecced frost for my guild, and plus i was getting bored with the other 2 specs, and pulled 3.2k dps in naxx last night. That dps isnt awfull by any means but its still extremely lower than the other 3 specs. I know blizz said they are looking into buffing icelance for shatters but what else, if anything, do u think blizz can do so that frost mages wont be the 'suck' anymore in pve.

[Hephastis]

Why do you want all 3 specs to be all the same in pve? Of course certain specs will be less viable in pve vs. pvp and visa versa. You have pvp specs and pve specs. Frost is a pvp spec. FFB or arcane is pve. Deal with it.

[Shatteryoface]

Lol I love that people on forums still do asshole replys. I asked a simple question and this dousche bag has to say that. I enjoy playing as frost as many others do and it's not fair that blizz looks as frost as a primarily pvp spec. If they can nerf a spec cause its too bursty in pvp, which nerfs someone using that spec in pve, why can't they buff a pvp spec to help someone wanting to use that spec for pve.

[Conran]

blizzard doesn't want it that way, they feel you should play how you like with the specc you like in PvE or PvP
sure if you want max dps, some specc are better then others

why would they otherwise buff fire for pvp, it's not because they feel that fire should be a pve spec
But i think (what most ppl forget) you should play what you like, even if that means you lose some DPS @boss or die a bit sooner in PvP

and to answer you're question, yes frost will get a bit buffed for PvE uses

[kailtas]

Lol I love that people on forums still do asshole replys. I asked a simple question and this dousche bag has to say that. I enjoy playing as frost as many others do and it's not fair that blizz looks as frost as a primarily pvp spec. If they can nerf a spec cause its too bursty in pvp, which nerfs someone using that spec in pve, why can't they buff a pvp spec to help someone wanting to use that spec for pve.

he didnt do a good reply but atleast he didnt call u a douchebag or what?
L2 be nice

[qae]

The difficulty about frost spec is that it has some burst in pvp, as well as survability..

Giving frost mage more dps could cause them to do really to much dmg in pvp.. in addition to all the cc tools and survability they already have..

I understand this is not an easy thing to balance.. if blizz give more dmg but remove some survability it will hurt mage in pvp.. if they give more dmg and keep the survability as it is it will hurt everyone else :P

edit :

the same thing is true for all spec of rogue.. they are really strong in pvp thanks to all the tools they have, and they do good dmg as well.. Now they are a bit weak in pve..

But I guess they can't just give them more firepower.. it would be devastating in pvp..

[Vergilius]

I want to play full prot on my pally for DPS, because I dont like tanking. Please buff prot DPS.


All specs aren't viable for everything, and never will be. You have two PvP specs and two PvE specs, and all of them works just fine.
It's not like you CAN'T do PvE as full frost, it's just that the other specs are better. Just like Survival is better than MM for PvE DPS for hunters, or whatever.

[Backwardpawn]

I want to play full prot on my pally for DPS, because I dont like tanking. Please buff prot DPS.


All specs aren't viable for everything, and never will be. You have two PvP specs and two PvE specs, and all of them works just fine.
It's not like you CAN'T do PvE as full frost, it's just that the other specs are better. Just like Survival is better than MM for PvE DPS for hunters, or whatever.

Yeah cause that's remotely close to wanting a dps spec of a dps class to do somewhere near the dps of our other specs. QFT.

Blizzards new policy has done wonders for your class so you should probably just rethink posting.. ever.

All your pve specs are playable at a competitive level since bc, and ours are not. All your pvp specs can be played at a close to competitive level where ours cant... maybe not arena so much but a tankadin with pvp talents that know how to play can put a dent in anything.

I think we'd all be better off reverting these changes sometimes, as a mage I have loved the direction they started to take us, but it's a little off balanced seeing every other class getting such a bigger benefit from the 'bring the player, not the class' ideals.

Yeah I'll out dps pretty much everyone at equal gear level, but maybe I want to do that as frost too? If using your abilities are suppose to be a CHOICE then just having certain defensive talents shouldn't mean an automatic nerf to dps. If you have to use those defensive abilities thats where the lower dps should come in.

[Conran]

yeah, you should compare a class that could do basicly everything in each spec (holy pala's and retri pala's are seen in PvP and PvE aren't they??) prot maybe not, but still, with a pure DPS class with 3 different types of spells

you can play arena and PvE with your retri pala, so why shouldn't a fire mage be able to make that decision, or a frostmage
go try and be smart somewhere else

The point wasn't that you should DPS with your healing spec, the point was to make it worth it in PvP or PvE, and that's basicly what is missing in the mage specs
if you like fire but you don't like PvE, you have a problem, which they are trying to fix
same goes for frost

[Vergilius]

Yeah cause that's remotely close to wanting a dps spec of a dps class to do somewhere near the dps of our other specs. QFT.

Blizzards new policy has done wonders for your class so you should probably just rethink posting.. ever.

All your pve specs are playable at a competitive level since bc, and ours are not. All your pvp specs can be played at a close to competitive level where ours cant... maybe not arena so much but a tankadin with pvp talents that know how to play can put a dent in anything.

I think we'd all be better off reverting these changes sometimes, as a mage I have loved the direction they started to take us, but it's a little off balanced seeing every other class getting such a bigger benefit from the 'bring the player, not the class' ideals.

Yeah I'll out dps pretty much everyone at equal gear level, but maybe I want to do that as frost too? If using your abilities are suppose to be a CHOICE then just having certain defensive talents shouldn't mean an automatic nerf to dps. If you have to use those defensive abilities thats where the lower dps should come in.

I assume by "your" you mean paladins. Then, please, enlighten me as to exactly how viable "on a competitive level" Retribution was in BC. Or prot, for that matter. Most guilds just considered prot to be a waste of raid spot and rather brought druids and warriors. The amount of prot paladins that existed, and raided as main tanks, where maybe one or two per server. That's not a whole lot, you know. The rest were just alts who were brought out to tank waves in MH.

I can agree that the prot->DPS part was a bit overexaggerated, but it still gets down to the main point of the post.

Oh, and to the part where you say that there are players that can play prot in pvp, sure. There are.

But then again, there sure are more people who can play firemage in pvp. So that point is still null.

[Vergilius]

yeah, you should compare a class that could do basicly everything in each spec (holy pala's and retri pala's are seen in PvP and PvE aren't they??) prot maybe not, but still, with a pure DPS class with 3 different types of spells

you can play arena and PvE with your retri pala, so why shouldn't a fire mage be able to make that decision, or a frostmage
go try and be smart somewhere else

Yeah, I can play arena and PvE with my retri paladin. And so can you, with your arcane mage.

[Conran]

and that's the point, did you read anything i said??
i don't play arcane because i don't like it
i don't play frost because i don't like it
i like playing with fire
you guy's have options in you spec
i don't

so yo completely of track, m8
and that's the basis of this tread
he's asking if he ever get's an option for frost for PvE, why should he spec fire if he doesn't like that
only because there is no other option, that's wrong, you should be able to play with your prefered spec in arena or PvE, what you like

now go play somewhere else

[Vergilius]

and that's the point, did you read anything i said??
i don't play arcane because i don't like it
i don't play frost because i don't like it
i like playing with fire
you guy's have options in you spec
i don't

so yo completely of track, m8
and that's the basis of this tread
he's asking if he ever get's an option for frost for PvE, why should he spec fire if he doesn't like that
only because there is no other option

now go play somewhere else

Then again, I never mentioned anything about playing retri, and you still assumed I did. So therefore I assumed you like to play arcane.

But, if you put it this way instead, maybe you'll understand:

Would you rather remove the extra survivability from frost, and make it a mindless frostball spamming spec, in return for higher PvE DPS, and thus killing it in PvP? Because giving it equal DPS to arcane, while still keeping the survivability and utility, would make both the other specs inferior, and frost overpowered. As several of the other posters have stated, you can't have both superior survivability and equal DPS.

[Lysah]

I see frost mages beat FFB mages all the time in damage. Beating arcane might be another story, though.

[Backwardpawn]

I assume by "your" you mean paladins. Then, please, enlighten me as to exactly how viable "on a competitive level" Retribution was in BC. Or prot, for that matter. Most guilds just considered prot to be a waste of raid spot and rather brought druids and warriors. The amount of prot paladins that existed, and raided as main tanks, where maybe one or two per server. That's not a whole lot, you know. The rest were just alts who were brought out to tank waves in MH.

I can agree that the prot->DPS part was a bit overexaggerated, but it still gets down to the main point of the post.

Oh, and to the part where you say that there are players that can play prot in pvp, sure. There are.

But then again, there sure are more people who can play firemage in pvp. So that point is still null.

Seeing as I was quoting you, yeah.. paladins. You mentioned your paladin in your first sentence.

More people that can pvp well as a fire mage over a tankadin with pvp talents? Doubt it.

But.. I agree with what you're trying to express. I happen to arena as fire because im a cheap ass and don't want to spend money respecing for pvp. I'm not saying all our specs are completely unusable in certain situations, but the learning curve is much more steep. It doesn't excuse the fact that not only do you get to wear plate, you get to do the same damage being ret and you're melee. This isn't really just targeted at paladins, because imo paladins are lesser to any other non-mana based melee class.

If they're going to equalize classes like they want to, then they really need to rework a lot of shit. I'm fine with being squishy and not being a face rolling melee class, (actually im not, I'm now lvling a dk (oh my god a dps class that can dps with all it's trees.. and tank!)) but if they're going to do that they can't give everyone else the defensive tools and dps a mage has and not take into account that those classes also wear plate and are already able to do well against melee... we can't.

You can't sit still as a mage and have a paladin or warrior smash your face in and expect it to be an even fight, it's just not. We're put in a defensive position and are expected to constantly struggle to find a situation where we're able to stand still with not even a pet looking at you to do some dps. What do melee have to do? They have to press another key.. they don't have to stop, they don't have to worry about that use of a GCD destroying their dps.

This is a little off the topic of frost pve dps, but still I at least ask that our tree's be a little more even across pve and pvp if they're going to continue this making everyone equal bs.

And NO MAGE wants frost to become a mind numbing spam fest... ohhh wait IT ALREADY IS. All's we want is blizzard to get off their asses and figure something out. There is a problem with that, being the whole idea behind the mage in the first place.

I apologize for being so cranky about this subject, but I love my mage and the playstyle that comes along with it. I was afraid of hating my mage in bc, but it's becoming more of a fear now. Don't let the rant confuse you. I don't want to be equal to melee in all rights. I like having to actually lock down my opponent, but I don't like being penalized just because I'm a clothie.

edit: I missed the enlighten you part. Well... that's bc. Is that the case for wotlk? No. Why shouldn't mages be able to ask for the same?

[Conran]

Then again, I never mentioned anything about playing retri, and you still assumed I did. So therefore I assumed you like to play arcane.

But, if you put it this way instead, maybe you'll understand:

Would you rather remove the extra survivability from frost, and make it a mindless frostball spamming spec, in return for higher PvE DPS, and thus killing it in PvP? Because giving it equal DPS to arcane, while still keeping the survivability and utility, would make both the other specs inferior, and frost overpowered. As several of the other posters have stated, you can't have both superior survivability and equal DPS.

i never assumed you did play retri, i made an example, because you started with paladins, but next time i shall be more clear about it :P
and i never said it should be completely the same, but yea, if they can buff fire to more survivability, then they should buff frost to do more PvE dmg
I just made a statement, that you should be able to play PvE or PvP, what you like, with the tree you desire

And you are putting words in my mouth, i never said they should take away frost surivability, i never said they should take away PvE firedmg
i just think they should tweak it, which they are going to do, to make it more valuable, not to be completely equal, or to be the best specc
but to be an option

like paladins, for example have

[Zelimagi]

I highly doubt that frost will ever get any buffs at all, but if it did and it became comparable to the other specs now I would go frost.

Those who think frost is a spam spec, are absolutely incorrect and have not truely raided as frost at all. Frostbolt is your core spell, which activates all of your secondary abilties that increase your DPS. You must learn to use Fingers of Frost correctly, plan your Brain Freezes, know when to use your water elemental, and know the right time to use your Icy Viens.

My thoughts is that this is the most challenging spec of all the mage specs. Arcane, from what I've been reading, has become a "spamming spec" from the current ABar coeff nerf, and Fire/Frostfire is all about spamming one spell too. All mage trees revolve around spamming one spell, provoking reactive spells from the main spells, useing a DPS increase spell to speed up or power up your damage, and keeping a raid DPS increasing ability on a target up at all times.

Both Arcane and Fire trees have a single reactive ability, but Frost has two which can be used together. The two reactive abilties from Frost are differently used than the other two mage trees, because they require timing and reaction unlike the two other trees where you use them whenever it is provoked.

If you don't like or cannot play spam specs, then you should not even be playing a mage at all. I hear hunting is easy!

[Steady]

There seems to be an underlying sense of Arcane being the top mage DPS spec, and comparing it with frost and FFB. Where is the fireball love? Fireball specs are EASILY competitive with Arcane after the arcane changes.

To the person saying frost is the hardest to play. It might be the case at lower gear levels, but the majority of the time when geared fairly well using either GCD on a Ice Lance or Fireball turns out to be a DPS loss, not a gain. Thus it is simply Frostbolt spam. Regarding cooldown usage also, it's not even remotely as involving as Fire specs. With fire you have to think about whether you'll get a 2nd usage in, and if not whether it's worth saving for sub-35% for Molten Fury. As frost, like arcane, it's basically use it as many times as possible, because there are no damage boost at a lower percentage. Frost = Icy Veins + Elemental right away, Cold Snap, Icy Veins after first use runs out, Water Ele again after first one runs out, then use whenever CD comes up.

[Frenz]

Lol I love that people on forums still do asshole replys. I asked a simple question and this dousche bag has to say that. I enjoy playing as frost as many others do and it's not fair that blizz looks as frost as a primarily pvp spec. If they can nerf a spec cause its too bursty in pvp, which nerfs someone using that spec in pve, why can't they buff a pvp spec to help someone wanting to use that spec for pve.

He was posting a reply with his opinion & is a viable answer, by posting this directly flaming him wouldnt that make your reply an 'asshole' reply?

Blizzard would like to make as many specs playable as can be, and this game is a constant up & down game of tug-rope as class/spec balancing is pretty hard. I know it is a generic answer, but it is the only definite answer you can get.

Im not trying to be a smartass here, but that's my opinion.

[Abandon]

Well, hypothetically speaking, frost mages should be doing the same amount of damage as shadow priests/ret paladins next patch as they are all "utility" specs, able to provide replenishment.

I don't see how people can actually argue that frost should not be viable for PVE. Either you are so afraid of your own spec not being the absolute best any more that you complain about possible buffs to your own class, or you play another class and do not want frost mages to be stronger in PVP as a side-effect of making them a DPS class.