My Idea for Ret Changes...Talents and Trees

[Heidenreich]

Ok, so out of a lot of boredom today (mainly cause I was waiting for my wife to get home with the Credit Card so I could renew my account, stupid Credit Cards expiring and having to add a new one to my account), I decided to make my own Talent Tree for Retribution Paladins (I say for Retribution Paladins, because it is a full Retribution Tree, first two Tiers of the Protection Tree, and first tier Holy tree). So here is "MY" version.

Heidenreich's Retribution Talent Tree (there is now a "newer" version of my talent tree a few posts down. Several things were modified a bit more...lol...I did some nerfing on my own talent tree >.< )

Now I'll explain some of my changes. If you actually bother looking, you will see their aren't too many changes and I personally don't think the changes or additions I made would make our Spec "over powered" in PvE or PvP.

Holy Tree:
Seals of the Pure - Changed to affect ALL Seals and Judgements by 15% (when 5/5)

Protection Tree:
*New Talent*
Piercing Light - Tier 2 of Protection Tree - Credit goes to Saurus

Causes your Consecration spell to be infused with Piercing Light granting all those standing on Consecrated Land to be granted 20% of their Armor Penetration in additional damage. (when 2/2)

I did slightly alter his original write-up to it and made it a 2 point talent, but I really liked the extra synergy it would have Retribution Paladins bring to a raid.

Retribution Tree:
Swift Retribution - Switched with Judgements of the Wise - Added Expertise

Your Auras also increase casting, ranged, and melee attack speeds by 3% and increases the Paladin's Expertise by 6. (when 3/3)

Not a major change other then the move of where it is in the tree. I noticed "almost" every class has something that adds to their hit or expertise and well that's something we as Retribution Paladins were lacking. Just seemed like a good talent to add it too. Gives more of a reason to "want" to spec into this.

Judgements of the Wise - Switched with Swift Retribution - Changed from 15% Base Mana back to 33% Base Mana

*New Talent*
Improved Crusader Strike (I'm not talented with coming up with name!)
Requires Crusader Strike (well DUH!)

Your Crusader Strike now increases Holy Damage by 5% for 10 seconds. This effect stacks up to 5 times. (when 5/5)

Ok this talent may need some tweaking, since 25% increase to Holy Damage "might" be a bit to much. This wouldn't be "over powered" in PvP because it would take you 5 Crusader Strikes (30 seconds) to get the full benefit of this talent. It would be a great PvE talent though and would make up for some of the damage that we lost with Fanaticism and Righteous Vengeance. It would give a reason for Priest to Holy Fire/Smite when bored and for Holy Paladins to Holy Shock when bored (I use when bored loosely here, but there have been pleanty of times Priests and Paladins have been bored during boss fights).

The only downside to this would be Protection Paladins TPS would go through the roof with this. So maybe an alteration to this ability so it is a self buff (ie Shadow Weaving) for the Retribution Paladin.

Righteous Vengeance - Changed to include Crusader Strike as well, kept it at 30%.

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Ok so right now on "Live" servers, we can take everything essential for Max DPS in Raids and we still have 10 points to throw where ever we like (9 if you include Seal of Command).

When 3.1 comes out (assuming the tree doesn't change at all) we can take everything essential for MAX DPS in Raids and we still have 14 points to throw where ever we like (13 if you include Seal of Command).

With my Talent Tree, if you took everything essential for Max DPS in Raids, we would only end up with 2 extra points to spend where we like (1 if you include Seal of Command and yes I know not much room for anything other then "cookie cutter" build).

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The Pros and Cons of a tree like the one I made are pretty simple.

The biggest Pro is we will still be very competitive in DPS and we will not have to worry about our mana. We will also bring more synergy to raids. There will also be multiple possibilities for PvP specs.

The biggest Con would be PvE Paladins would be stuck with a cookie cutter spec, unless your guild raids with more then one Ret Paladin (which mine does sometimes).

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So now that I am done with my massive wall of text (ok it's not a wall I DID after all put spaces ). I would like to know from the Retribution Community your thoughts on it. Flame it, say it sucks, say it's great, suggest other changes, say you wish Blizzard would implement this! I don't care. I just want to see what people think of it.

[enbee]

Those ideas are actually reasonable, usually posts like these call for anal lightning bolts and laser eyes.

<3

[kailtas]

great ideas, thumbs up.

tho i disagree having a talent that takes 30 second to get up to full, what about 2 stacks when crit and 1 when normal?
also 10 second is a bit penalising, makes the paladin force to go crusader strike instead of judgement.


im also pretty sure this wont happend, blizzard dont want 2 much damage come from 1 source.
by theese changes ure sugesting a total of 40% increase damage to judgement.
this is already our main source of damage and this can lead to OP'nes or 1 spell OP while rest are just there for 10% increase eccept consecration wich 25% increase is non-noticable in pvp but good in pve.
excorsism will also recieve a nice boost too, not OP but good.

great idea but making something as unrealistic as 40% increase damage to judgement is plain sick.

great ideas but ure buffing the wrong sources of damage.

buff DS and CS instead.

[Heidenreich]

tho i disagree having a talent that takes 30 second to get up to full, what about 2 stacks when crit and 1 when normal?
also 10 second is a bit penalising, makes the paladin force to go crusader strike instead of judgement.

Well the main reason I said 10 seconds is cause I know other classes have to juggle their cooldowns (not really sure if they have to anymore), but by making it 10 seconds it does force you to do exactly that, juggle your cooldowns.

I mean right now juggling our cooldowns is stupid easy. I had my wife play my toon one night during a Naxx25 run, because I had to run to the store. I come back and to my amazement she was putting out close to my normal DPS. All I told her was Judge immediately the second it comes off of cooldown and just face roll the other abilities the rest of the time.

I do agree, this would force way to much damage to come from one source, but like I mentioned I thought it could use a bit of tweaking. Maybe more along the lines of 3/6/9/12/15 instead.

[kailtas]

i stil keep on my that buffing holy damage outcome is not neccesary.

our consecration and judgement damage is fine atm, excorsism will also be fine with the 20% damage glyph.

what we need to focus on is the 10% overall damage Crusader strike and divine storm.

theire just 2 low, atm as u said it's np to place coldowns in what to click when.

buffing low damage spells and abilites is way more important than buffing judgement/consecration/excorsism.

and the 20% ARP is a good idea tbh, but listen to this.

improved crusader strike (5 ranks)
increase physical damage done by 5-10-15-20-25 per stack, each cruasder strike hit increases stack by 1 and each crit increases stack by 2, lasts 10 seconds.

this would also increase the importance of hit rating for a paladin, cause no hit = u lose the buff.

[Heidenreich]

improved crusader strike (5 ranks)
increase physical damage done by 5-10-15-20-25 per stack, each cruasder strike hit increases stack by 1 and each crit increases stack by 2, lasts 10 seconds.

I like this too. I'm assuming as a Paladin "self buff" though kinda like Shadow Weaving is for a Shadow Priest, because 25% increased damage in general for everyone would be kinda over powered in PvE.

[Tigercat]

Judgements of the Wise - Switched with Swift Retribution - Changed from 15% Base Mana back to 33% Base Mana

Lost me right here.&#160; We've all already seen how unbelievably ridiculous 33% is.&#160; You're not supposed to never worry about mana under any circumstances, you shouldn't be able to constantly instantly heal yourself via other talents in pvp and still not worry about mana.&#160;

I can see 20%, but 33 is simply too much.&#160; Too much of this just looks like a throwback to 3.0.

Edit: Make that MOST of us have seen how ridiculous 33% is. I'm predicting a long line of retardins coming in after this post that have not yet grapsed how stupid the spec was in 3.0.

[Heidenreich]

You are also talking 33% when Spiritual Attunement was also available to ALL Paladins. Now yeah, I still think 33% might be too high, but 20% is also to low still. I was originally considering 25% when I was making up the talent tree, but I figured I would just do 33% and run with it. I was kinda surprised this was the first time anyone mentioned that though.33% was fun as hell though. >.> I did enjoy it, even though the first time I went into a BG and was top KBs, Top Damage, and #2 in Healing that the 33% was gonna quickly get hit with the nerf bat.

25% is where I honestly think Judgements of the Wise belongs though.

I also believe Judgements of the Wise should have a "self" healing debuff attached to it, to reduce the amount Ret Paladins are capable of healing themselves. I've had crits that make me still cry OP about my ability to heal myself. This will most likely make the majority of people cry, especially those who rerolled Paladin for WotLK, but it's true OH IT'S DAMN TRUE!

[Retrogames]

You've managed to avoid making huge changes to the tree, which shows that you're realistically considering the changes you're suggestion. That's good for starters.

Most of the changes you've suggested are pretty grounded, although I would look at the numbers for JotW as 33% may still be too high (although you make your case very well). I wouldn't say you're wrong, just that it would need to be carefully studied.

I'm not sure what your intentions are with Piercing Light. It increases damage based on how much Armor Penetration the affected targets have? Try to remember that you're in tier 2 of Protection, which is available at level 15. How much gear at level 15 has Armor penetration? In fact, a quick check at WoWhead shows there isn't a single item under level 70 with Armor Penetration on it. So this talent is effectively useless until later in the game, yet is available very early.

I would seriously reconsider Piercing Light. Perhaps it decreases the armor of all unfriendly targets within the range of consecration by a set amount, acting as an AOE Sunder Armor? That would still be useful to a low level player.

As for Improved Crusader Strike, I think one of the biggest problems with CS is that it's effectively very boring for a 41 pt. talent. I mean, Crusader Strike is basically a level 50 talent that mimics a level 1 warrior ability. I think instead of investing points into a new talent, just make changes to what is already there. There's a dozen threads on how to improve CS. I don't think your option is very realistic, in that it takes a long time to ramp up and is extremely powerful. As others have suggested, making it a self-buff might temper it slightly. It still doesn't scream 'exciting' to me though.

[bigmatt]

give us a damn hit rating talent each 1 point of hit =2 points make it 5point talent idc, hit is so constricting

[Heidenreich]

Heidenreich's Retribution Talent Tree 2

A few adjustments made.

Judgements of the Wise - Reduced down to 25% Base Mana (Down from 33%). Added a Healing Debuff 50%/33%/25%.

Improved Crusader Strike - Changed from a Holy Damage increase to a Physical Damage increase.

[Heidenreich]

give us a damn hit rating talent each 1 point of hit =2 points make it 5point talent idc, hit is so constricting

See I was juggling the idea of Hit or Expertise when I was adding a second ability to Swift Retribution. Expertise won in the end from my own personal stand point, but adding hit there instead would of been just as good.

Something along the lines of 1%/2%/3% Hit tied in with Swift Retribution was the other option I was thinking of.

In the end I looked at my own character though (which is all BiS gear other then the boots that drop off Malygos, BECAUSE MALYGOS F**KING HATES ME!!!) and I fall 6 Expertise under cap. So that's why I chose Expertise there.

But putting Hit instead of Expertise on Swift Retribution would be just as good in my honest opinion.

[rabbimojo]

I don't really have time to go through all phys dps trees and check, but.. I was under the impression that expertise was added to a talent tree only when the tree was used for tanking, with one exception. Hance get it because it smooths out the itemization decisions between them and hunters.

Does ret really need it?
As for hit, doesn't that typically just show up in dual-wield trees?

Just some thoughts.

[mitchimitch]

well arms and fury have exp in the tree , shaman will have exp, dk have tons of exp, so only rogue and ret don have it.

and seeing as most ret skip some hit anyway, and that blizz want to buff ret pve dmg, putting back precision (deep in ret this time i guess) wouldn't be a bad idea i guess.

ret tree need an overhaul anyway .
reckoning have to get of prot tree, and i like the idea that reck have a chance to make cs hit again.

it would even have synergy with some imp cs strike. like the one that stack a % dmg increase for the paly. a few luck from reckoning and its all stacked up already. doesn't seem unreasonable.

[Goldenarmor]

well arms and fury have exp in the tree , shaman will have exp, dk have tons of exp, so only rogue and ret don have it...

Rogues in fact do have Expertise in the combat tree, they have the strongest expertise talent of anyone.

Edit: removed the overuse of "in fact".

[Heidenreich]

Expertise Talents - Taken From DPS Specs

Rage of Rivendare - Death Knight - Unholy Tier 10 Talent
Veteran of the Third War - Death Knight - Blood - Tier 5
Blood Gorged - Death Knight - Blood Tier 10 Talent
Primal Precision - Druid - Feral Tier 4 Talent
Weapon Expertise - Rogue - Combat Tier 6 Talent
Strength of Arms - Warrior - Arms Tier 7 Talent
Unleashed Rage - Shaman - Enhancement - Tier 6 Talent (will have Expertise in 3.1)

After going over other classes DPS Talent Trees (yeah I know DK's "can" tank as Unholy or Blood, but Frost is still the best) I definitely stick with my opinion of Expertise with Swift Retribution.

[mitchimitch]

didn't know that. thanks. lol

so yeah ret are the only one that dont have exp talent. nice...

Those are so simple thing to change, blizz want to buff pve dmg, im sure that if you put about 10 of the ''inteligent'' people on this forum in the same room for 1h and ret tree would come out great (both for pve and pvp)

[Mica]

I still think they need to reorganize the first 1-3 tiers of protection and have something in there that helps ret do dps. They keep saying they want to give ret a reason to go down one of the other trees, well it's not going to because they want to heal or tank, so the other two trees need to be able to increase ret's overall dmg output.

Imo, somehow get reckoning into the first 1-3 tiers of prot and make it a 10%(x%) chance on striking an enemy to make the next 4 attacks do an addditional strike, 20% weapondmg as holy dmg.

[mitchimitch]

well if they make reckoning do holy dmg, they would have to nerf prot paly elsewhere because they will do too much threat. The only real choice right now is to move it to ret or remove it.

1-3 tier of prot are fine. enough pve talent for prot paly, and the pvp talent for ret/holy. they need to add more talent pt into ret tree. OR keep it the way it is, still boost the dps from it, and that way ret wil be able to spec into prot to bring support buff (imp dev aura+ the ret aura talent= running around with 1 aura that give armor and 3% haste/crit)

[Mica]

Protection Tree:
*New Talent*
Piercing Light - Tier 2 of Protection Tree - Credit goes to Saurus

Causes your Consecration spell to be infused with Piercing Light granting all those standing on Consecrated Land to be granted 20% of their Armor Penetration in additional damage. (when 2/2)

I did slightly alter his original write-up to it and made it a 2 point talent, but I really liked the extra synergy it would have Retribution Paladins bring to a raid.

Wouldn't be able to do this because it would create another "unique" raid buff. You could alter it to work kind of like Desecration for the death knights though and increase YOUR damage or YOUR armor penetration while standing in the consecration.

Your Crusader Strike now increases Holy Damage by 5% for 10 seconds. This effect stacks up to 5 times. (when 5/5)

Ok this talent may need some tweaking, since 25% increase to Holy Damage "might" be a bit to much. This wouldn't be "over powered" in PvP because it would take you 5 Crusader Strikes (30 seconds) to get the full benefit of this talent. It would be a great PvE talent though and would make up for some of the damage that we lost with Fanaticism and Righteous Vengeance. It would give a reason for Priest to Holy Fire/Smite when bored and for Holy Paladins to Holy Shock when bored (I use when bored loosely here, but there have been pleanty of times Priests and Paladins have been bored during boss fights).

The only downside to this would be Protection Paladins TPS would go through the roof with this. So maybe an alteration to this ability so it is a self buff (ie Shadow Weaving) for the Retribution Paladin.

GC said something along the lines of them being interested in making crusader strike somehow increase the damage of righteous vengeance. This could be a way to do it. I think it'd come down to something like "increases your the damage of your Righteous vengeance by 10%, stacks up to 3 times."

From looking at the changes that they've done to the Ret tree so far, THIS SPEC seems to be the baseline "I have every dps talent that can increase my output" spec. It leaves 15 points open to be spent elsewhere.


Going along with the developers desire to make ret want to go further down the other trees, I'd suggest the following:

• Make seals of the pure affect seal of blood/vengeance as well as stated
• Can't add an "improved crusader strike" because sanctity of battle already basically does that, but we can change crusader strike to still buff Righteous Vengeance just as an added effect
• Change Swift Retribution to also increase our expertise by 6 as stated
• Swap Anticipation with Reckoning, change reckoning to be a 10% chance on hit to make your next 4 weapon swings within 8 seconds deal an additional 20% holy damage.

These changes get us to 13 points out of 15 spent leaving 2 points for wiggle room and there's plenty of "ok" places to spend them that don't really buff our dps but I'm fine with that.

Here's what an example spec would look like assuming seals of the pure affected seal of blood, anticipation was swapped with reckoning and reckoning was changed to work with ret, and swift retribution had 6 expertise added to it:

New Ret Spec with 1 point in Divine Guardian and 1 point in Seal of Command