We Restoration Druids have right to cloth gear... or?

[Eudaimonia]

Situational.

For your standard average piece of gear, its hard to argue a leather wearer should get precedence over a clothie on cloth. For best in slot gear, there might be some wiggle room, but I would say that wiggle room really only exists when said item is best in slot for the leather wearer, and NOT for the clothie in question.

Thing is, im not overly convinced that, for a resto druid, there is a large concern over wearing leather as compared to cloth. Cloth simply isnt that much better, if its better at all. If there is, its an issue with blizzards itemization anyway. It isnt the fault of cloth wearers, and it shouldnt really make sense that they get to face increased gear competition because a) you dont like leather, b) leather is subpar, the fault of blizzard, or c) you might just want increased opportunity to gear up - which rolling on cloth affords you well.

In any case, I find its a hard pill to swallow. There's enough crossover as it is, theres no need to further muddy the waters for cloth wearers by introducing yet another spec that wants to roll on their only options. Warriors, even though some mail is better than plate currently, shouldnt be allowed to roll on mail over a shaman or hunter (yes, in wrath, despite the in wrath). Armor class may not have too much bearing on how we play the pve game outside of tanking, but its a distinction that still can't be ignored because it IS restrictive.

[Spots]

That doesn't make sense, you passed cloth upgrades for alts?

Well, nobody to blame but yourself for that.

If I remember correctly, alts had same rights as mains. Most dkp won. I never treat alts any different from mains. If it's a hard working raider, he deserves the loot, if he's a slacker I'd not even grant it on his main. (and seeing that alts were only allowed if geared for the encounter only proved they were putting in the required effort)

But it was trying to show you the flaw in your own logic. You suggest we druid wait for the leather drops, cause if we take cloth, it's eventually a loss for the raid since if the leather drops, either the druid gets 2 items or the leather gets DE'd. I was following your logic, and now you say it's fail? Gotta love the irony in that....

[Degrador]

We went through all this in a thread a month or two ago. Whilst I agree that having fixed restrictions on rolling on your own armor class items will end up with certain classes never getting their BiS items (druids and shammies in particular), restricting rolls by armor class will likely end up with better loot distribution and less wasted gear, which may be more important to your guild.

[Barbie]

Araz, sorry to say, but after reading both of your posts today I think there are way too many morons in your raid. As you seem to be smart: lookout for another raid in realm forum as long as there is time to update equip for Ulduar.

[wambat132]

I"m obviously in the minority here but I'm still saying that druids shouldn't roll on cloth gear. Blizzard tries to balance all the classes so that one is not OP and another sucks (Yes I know it's not perfect but that's what they try to do). Part of this is choosing how much base damage/healing spells and abilities do and then choosing gear that will benefit the class to make them as equal as possible assuming they are going to use the gear they are meant for. If druids started getting all the cloth gear then they'd nerf us because we'd be so much better then a priest healer. They did this with dps warriors. Many of them were taking leather dps that was intended for feral druids and rogues. That in turn made them OP so they nerfed them and now a lot of warriors are using leather now instead of plate to keep up with their high dps, and a lot of plate gear is getting DE. (Even more so in 3.1) So now dps leather is being rolled on by rogues, feral druids, dps warrior, and ret pallys instead of just 2 classes sharing it now we have 4 and dps plate gear doing nothing.
I know that most of the BiS items are cloth but it's probably because priests need better stats to do what resto druids to with less.
If we keep taking gear from priest then we'll become so much better healers then them and we'll get nerfed.
Druids are really good healers right now (arguably the best) just using leather item and if we roll on the cloth then we'll get a nerf and have to start competing with more classes to get our cloth gear.
I know most people will disagree with me but that's my 2 cents.

[Daez]

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...agrand&n=Spots

Thats me. Notice the only cloth I have is the belt, which has no hitrating.
Not sure if it is all 213 ilevel, but it's not that bad if I say so myself.

You are using 2 blue trinkets one of which you are primarily using to stay hit capped. You also have plenty of 200 items for no other reason that hit rating. As I said, at the 213 level you have to gem for hit if you aren't wearing cloth. You also have the neck from Malygos quest which I originally took out the list because its a crap shoot rather you can get it or not and comes down to nothing more than luck to get it in most cases.

Current guild uses DKP also. The one that bids the most gets it. If you bid the most, you have been to many raids, been there alot for the raid and didn't take that much loot and the clothies don't really want it that much. Again a 'fairer' system then just handing them to the poor sod along for the free epix.

I personally like Suicide Kings better than DKP. My current guild uses Suicide Kings which is a list of names if your name is higher on the list it has been longer since you took an item so the item goes to you. However, if you don't have decent raid attendance in my guild you don't stay in the guild so the DKP bribe system for raid attendance isn't really needed.

[Daez]

my guild does this on cloth healing gear Priests(of the holy variety)>Druids>locks and mages who decide they want it> resto shammys/holy pallys because cloth healing gear has spirit on it

How do you define healing gear on it? Please tell me you don't deprive locks and mages from taking gear with spirit on it. Mp5 is normally another story, but if you only claim gear with hit on it to be true dps gear and everything with spirit on it to be healing gear then I wouldn't want to be a lock or mage in your gear either.

I think the fairest way is that if you are a spell caster that benefits from spirit gear in any way then you should be able to roll on it. That includes druids (restor/balance), mages, locks and priests.

[sleepyb]

People of that gear level should get priority, period.

Every healer in the game would roll on cloth if there were no limitations. How are your priests EVER going to gear up if every selfish druid, shaman, and paladin is rolling on their gear too? Meanwhile you'll be DEing a nearly-identical plate, mail, or leather piece when it drops the next week.

The same goes for DPS casters, melee gear, etc.

[thunderchunk]

While both of these statements are true, if people stopped posting stuff like this what would the rest of us have to ridicule while we post? This thread just provided me with 10 minutes of enjoyment.

Took you ten minutes to read a page of posts?

[Cardrels]

Having a druid roll on cloth gear is sort of like having a T7 token saying like:
"Class: Druid, Mage, Rogue, DeathKnight, and also Warlock, Hunter if they're more important or want it more"
The cloth wearers can only roll on one type of gear... cloth. Letting druids roll on it too is taking that away from them. They can't roll on leather, so druids kind of get twice as much gear to choose from. If no clothies need it then of course a druid can roll on it for an upgrade.
You have to be fair to all the members in a raid. Just because it's an upgrade for you doesn't mean you should get to take it from another class that only has that piece of gear to choose from. Yes the best in slot might be cloth but it's not like it's light years ahead in stats as the second best in slot. You can heal just as well if you have all "second best in slot" items cause they're not much worse then the best in slot. An extra 3 spirit or 6 SP isn't going to drastically change your healing.

...just shut up. You made yourself look like a complete jackass.

[Cracka_Bob]

ok ive read most of the comments on here and came to this conclusion...

if the stats are better than what u have, by all means roll... as a healer or dps, armor doesnt matter (as u shouldnt be getting hit in the 1st place) esp as a druid (of ANY spec) since u have talents and/or forms that increase ur armor so that cloth = leather and leather = mail (or plate for tanking druids with the right talents)... even if they dont exactly EQUAL the next tier in armor, they DO come very very close... which i think is blizz's intention

as far as ur guild... talk 2 the GM in private (be polite and dont spam guild chat) let him/her know that u (esp as resto) deserve 2 roll for the gear just like the clothies and so do the balance druids if u have any in the guild... remember stats>armor value and with talents and/or forms, it will raise the quality of the gear (in a sense)

[Eudaimonia]

If you're in a guild that is not allowing you to roll on best in slots to maximize your raid performance, then you need to find a new guild. Gear is gear. It doesn't matter if its cloth, leather, mail, or plate.

Poor argument. Or are you about to tell me that I should find a new guild?


In all seriousness though, in theory, you are right. The problem is that the information you present is only a small part of the bigger picture. There is no piece of cloth that is so significantly better than equivalent ilvl leather that it eclipses it. Look at this from the perspective of a full raid group that has to gear for content. By allowing resto druids equal access to cloth, you are effectively limiting cloth ability to gear simply by adding extra, unintended, competition. To gear the raid evenly, its probably best to restrict by armor class, because blizzard designs droprates around that.

[Daez]

If druids started getting all the cloth gear then they'd nerf us because we'd be so much better then a priest healer.

You can't be this dense really. You want to know what the solution to an abysmal set of leather raiding gear was in TBC? Blizzard told druids it was ok to seek out cloth equivalents. In TBC, the all time best gear for every slot was cloth and the leather gear truly did suck or had a drop rate of about 5%.

They did this with dps warriors. Many of them were taking leather dps that was intended for feral druids and rogues. That in turn made them OP so they nerfed them and now a lot of warriors are using leather now instead of plate to keep up with their high dps, and a lot of plate gear is getting DE. (Even more so in 3.1) So now dps leather is being rolled on by rogues, feral druids, dps warrior, and ret pallys instead of just 2 classes sharing it now we have 4 and dps plate gear doing nothing.

No paladin is really stupid enough to roll on leather. If the paladin is using leather they are FAIL. Paladins are strength and crit based. Warriors are supposed to be crit and strength based but they benefit just as much from ap and agility so they use it. Blizzard has said many times that the fact that warriors wear leather has nothing to do with their nerf. Their nerf has a lot more to do with TG scaling way to well.

I know that most of the BiS items are cloth but it's probably because priests need better stats to do what resto druids to with less.

This makes sense. It makes so much sense that priests needed a nerf already to keep from blowing away the healing meters so now they just top them. Priest don't need better gear than druids to heal better they are better set up to be the top raid healer.

If we keep taking gear from priest then we'll become so much better healers then them and we'll get nerfed.

You are so right. Us taking gear from priests is suddenly going to make us have the healing out put that they have. Lol! Priests will always have more healing output than a druid but the druid will always have better healing efficiency. Putting both in the exact same gear isn't going to change that.

Druids are really good healers right now (arguably the best) just using leather item and if we roll on the cloth then we'll get a nerf and have to start competing with more classes to get our cloth gear.
I know most people will disagree with me but that's my 2 cents.

Most people will disagree because you are truly clueless.

[Degrador]

if the stats are better than what u have, by all means roll... as a healer or dps, armor doesnt matter (as u shouldnt be getting hit in the 1st place) esp as a druid (of ANY spec) since u have talents and/or forms that increase ur armor so that cloth = leather and leather = mail (or plate for tanking druids with the right talents)... even if they dont exactly EQUAL the next tier in armor, they DO come very very close... which i think is blizz's intention

as far as ur guild... talk 2 the GM in private (be polite and dont spam guild chat) let him/her know that u (esp as resto) deserve 2 roll for the gear just like the clothies and so do the balance druids if u have any in the guild... remember stats>armor value and with talents and/or forms, it will raise the quality of the gear (in a sense)

The armor from the item has nothing to do with the reason for restricting rolls to that armor class. The reason you do it is that there's only x amount of cloth which typically is about as much as there are specs wanting to use it - same goes for the other armor classes. If you allow people to roll on any armor class they can use, you get a lot more people wanting to use cloth which means the clothies get starved for gear while mail / plate gear ends up DE'd. That is the sole reason for restricting rolls to your armor class only, and it's a pretty good one if your guild is still in the process of gearing up.

[Cracka_Bob]

No paladin is really stupid enough to roll on leather. If the paladin is using leather they are FAIL.

except from a healer pov

[jb226]

When you show me the additional benefit a druid gets from leather in a raid you can start telling me a pve druid shouldn't be allowed to roll on cloth gear.

The benefit is that they can wear it.

Nobody is arguing that druids particularly care about the better armor rating on leather items versus cloth ones; the only argument is whether or not a druid who can wear both leather and cloth should be treated identically on rolls for cloth items against people who can only wear cloth.

I don't tend to care very much because I'm a pretty laid back person, but I also think this is a manufactured problem more than anything else. Maybe it's just because my guild tends to run 10s instead of 25s, but we long ago passed the point where most people actually need any gear from the instances. The same will happen with Ulduar long before whatever the next raid instance they create is ready for the majority of the people posting here.

My solution is actually pretty simple: Know what drops from the instance. If you can wear leather and there's a leather bracer (nearly) as good further down the instance, let the clothies have priority on those cloth bracers that just dropped. If we're really talking about best in slot items, then either roll equally or defer based on who it's a bigger improvement for. Beyond that you're just arguing about whether it's more important to gear you up faster or the raid as a whole. Everybody wants their best gear RIGHT THE HELL NOW! and feels it's unfair if they're not given every chance to win it, but if it's better for the raid as a whole then step aside. Giving first priority to people who can only wear that type of armor will tend to be the right thing to do for the raid in most cases.

[Daez]

Every healer in the game would roll on cloth if there were no limitations.

I know as a paladin the first thing I look for is cloth with spirit on it. /sarcasm

How are your priests EVER going to gear up if every selfish druid, shaman, and paladin is rolling on their gear too?

Yes because those selfish paladins and shamans are chasing after that spirit gear. We can't get enough of it. I personally have 2000 spirit on my paladin and I never run out of mana. /sarcasm

That priest is supposed to gear up by getting more dkp, attending more raids, pulling more weight, and impressing more people than the druid does. If you are a good raider no one would dream of giving a bad raider gear priority over you.

Meanwhile you'll be DEing a nearly-identical plate, mail, or leather piece when it drops the next week.

So true. I mean, hell I know I don't want any of that plate on my paladin because it all doesn't have spirit. I know shamans don't want that mail because it doesn't have spirit either. That leather always gets ded because it just sucks though. There should just be tank gear and then cloth gear. Even melee dps should go after cloth.

The same goes for DPS casters, melee gear, etc.

Yes, I agree, they all want spirit too.

On a side note, if you are going to make clueless arguments like this to try to back your opinion then you should at least realize that NO shaman or paladin will ever want cloth gear. Paladins and Shamans both get some damn well itemized gear (with the exception of elemental shamans). The real issue isn't that druids are rolling on cloth it is that druid healers and priest healers need the exact same stats on their gear so when cloth has those stats and leather doesn't their is a problem with itemization.

[Cracka_Bob]

The armor from the item has nothing to do with the reason for restricting rolls to that armor class. The reason you do it is that there's only x amount of cloth which typically is about as much as there are specs wanting to use it - same goes for the other armor classes. If you allow people to roll on any armor class they can use, you get a lot more people wanting to use cloth which means the clothies get starved for gear while mail / plate gear ends up DE'd. That is the sole reason for restricting rolls to your armor class only, and it's a pretty good one if your guild is still in the process of gearing up.

apparently u misunderstood my point... my point is that if the gear is better than what u have, u should have the same rights 2 roll on it as the clothies... i know this is a bit harder 2 do with guilds that are full of clothies, however, perhaps sed guilds could try either useing DKP or some sort of loot wheel to make it fair...]

my guild uses a loot wheel in 10 mans and DKP in 25... no one argues

[Degrador]

apparently u misunderstood my point... my point is that if the gear is better than what u have, u should have the same rights 2 roll on it as the clothies...

My point was that the only argument you considered against rolling on everything was the armor value, for which druids have talents to boost anyway (again, something of a pointless reason - if we did want armor then there's even more of a reason to go for our own armor class as the boost will be larger).

i know this is a bit harder 2 do with guilds that are full of clothies

Even a standard distribution of armor classes in your guild will still end up with the situation I described. There is more caster leather per the number of druid caster specs than there is cloth for clothies, so if druids are rolling on cloth too the casters will end up starved with leather being DE'd (ignoring shammies / pallies, but the situation just gets worse if you consider them too).

however, perhaps sed guilds could try either useing DKP or some sort of loot wheel to make it fair...]

DKP (or any other type of loot system) doesn't solve anything - you'll still end up with higher armor class items being DE'd while clothies are undergeared compared to the others.

[Degrador]

What class is your GM? I bet hes a cloth wearing person hahahaha

In my previous guild the GM was a holy pally yet set the rule that you could only roll on your own armor class unless nobody needed for main spec.